 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Azzacca
Date: 2001-07-06 02:18
Much like strangeness on ebay, I broke down and checked out the yahoo auctions. One of the first ones I looked at was:
:http://page.auctions.yahoo.com/auction/53070148?aucview=search
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Author: David
Date: 2001-07-06 03:28
That's idiotic. Someone needs to learn the difference between a clarinet and a trumpet, don't they?
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Author: Kim
Date: 2001-07-06 03:34
I liked the time an e-bayer called a flute a clarinet! LOL
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Author: Don Poulsen
Date: 2001-07-06 13:36
Well, it is listed as a clarinet and the picture is of a clarinet. I think they just goofed in copying the text from one of their trumpet auctions.
I just hope that whoever buys it realizes that it is not a modern Boehm-system clarinet, if that is what they are looking for.
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Author: David
Date: 2001-07-06 15:34
OMG I just noticed that!! What system is it? I can't tell, it's either Oehler or Albert. My bet's Oehler
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Author: Dee
Date: 2001-07-06 15:52
David wrote:
>
> OMG I just noticed that!! What system is it? I can't
> tell, it's either Oehler or Albert. My bet's Oehler
It is definitely NOT an Oehler system as there are too few keys. Matter of fact it probably isn't even an Albert system as it only seems to have two side trill keys on the upper joint and Alberts have three. Therefore it is probably closer to the Mueller system than anything else. All have been called German system at one time or another but the evolution goes like this:
Simple system > Mueller system > Albert system > Oehler system
These are often confused with one another and called by each other's names.
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Author: David
Date: 2001-07-06 19:14
Don't I feel like an idiot now. :P I need to read up more on my systems. I didn't think it was Albert either because it doesn't look like the models I've seen before. But I've never seen an Oehler and that's just what popped into my head. Does anybody know where I could find a picture of an Oehler-system clarinet?
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2001-07-06 19:57
I think there is some incorrect information in Dee's message. First of all, unless Baines ("Woodwind Instruments and their History') has left out an umlaut, it's Muller not Mueller. Second, Dee's progression appears to be incorrect. Again, according to Baines, Muller developed a 13-key clarinet in 1810. Albert (of Brussels) modified it "about the middle" of the 19th century to create the 13-key Albert system instrument. This is also referred to as a "simple" (Albert) system clarinet to distinguish it from later versions that included additional keys. Thus, a more accurate progression would appear to be:
Muller system > Albert ("Simple") System > More complex Albert Systems > Oehler systems
The picture of a "simple system (Albert Model)" shown in Baines only has two side keys. Conclusion: the clarinet in the auction is a simple (Albert) system instrument. The picture is blurry but It appears that this instrument is one of the cheap junk plastic instruments supposedly made for "Indian Police Bands" that have flooded eBay (in a variety of keys) for some time now.
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Author: Dee
Date: 2001-07-06 21:51
The nomenclature for older clarinets is muddy and unclear. For example, look at Rendall's "The Clarinet" and you will see somewhat different information. By the way Rendall does use the umlaut for Mueller.
The term simple system has been applied to many variants but really seems to be most correct to apply to pre-Mueller designs. True "simple system" clarinets had less than the 13 keys of Mueller's design. Generally they could be considered to average 5 or 6 keys but some had a few more keys but less than Mueller's 13 keys.
The term Albert system has been frequently misapplied to Mueller clarinets and other styles even in some of our references. Instruments that date prior to Albert's additions (1846 is the date given by Rendall) have been labeled Albert systems when they were not. Also Albert and his family were making clarinets prior to his additions and so would have made "simple system (Albert model)" but that would not have been Albert *System* clarinets. Note that Baines described it as an Albert model not an Albert system. Baines is not incorrect but it is easy to misinterpret. Many makers, including Albert, were producing simple systems.
All Albert *system* clarinets that I have seen have had three side trill keys on the upper joint. However the simpler Albert systems did not have rollers on the pinky keys. The simpler Albert system instruments also had no rings on the upper joint for first two finger holes. If you examine these closely though they do not provide any alternate note fingerings but simply let the finger holes have a better position for playing by having small offset pads to improve the intonation. However if you study the mechanism of the different styles of Alberts, the fingering for the notes is the same and there are no additional alternate fingerings. Note that the Albert system shown on the Rubank chart available with their Elementary method book is one of the more advanced Alberts (i.e. has rollers and upper joint rings).
So my chronology is correct.
Simple system (produced by many makers including Albert) -->
Mueller system --> Albert system (in some variations but all had three side trill keys) --> Oehler (available with a variable number of keys).
There was a great deal of overlap in their production, which leads to additional confusion in nomenclature. The simple systems were produced for several decades after the introduction of the Mueller system and Albert system. The Mueller system continued for several decades after the Albert system was introduced. Confusion also arises due to variants that were off the "main stream" of the chronology.
There have been two styles of these "Indian Army" clarinets showing up on the auctions. One has two side trill keys so most closely matches the Mueller system. The other has three side trill keys and so most close matches the basic Albert system (no rollers and no upper joint rings).
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Author: David Kinder
Date: 2001-07-07 04:56
Just stay away from that clarinet!!! THAT'S A P.O.S. OF A CLARINET! One of those Indian/Chinese things.
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Author: David
Date: 2001-07-07 18:54
I can see that, David K. My, how controversial these topics can be!! I did manage to find a picture of an Oehler system clarinet, and I realized I was WAY off. (Although it does look like it would be fun to learn how to play.)
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