 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: GavinClarinet
Date: 2020-08-11 01:41
Hi all,
My first post to this illustrious board, but I've been reading for several months and am constantly impressed with the breadth of knowledge and experience that doesn't seem to exist anywhere else.
I'll try to keep this post short, (though I can't promise not to have follow ups to come...)
The tl;dr version: what is a reasonable range of intonation in cents to be able to play with an local amateur ensemble without standing out like a sore thumb. Does it vary across the range from low to altissimo? What would I expect to get from a 'modern' clarinet such as an E12f? (Assuming a minimum level of skill to be able to play each note comfortably)
The long version:
I'm a returning clarinetist, having played through school in the 1980s (UK) and reached Grade 7, then lost interest and stopped playing.
About 10 years ago I bought a B12 on eBay and dabbled, but didn't catch the 'bug', however in the recent lock down I dug it out and found the time to start enjoying playing again.
I've joined (remotely) a local amateur concert band who of course are not meeting at the moment, but hope to eventually enjoy playing with other people again.
The B12 wasn't giving me the sound that I remembered and enjoyed, so I purchased a B&H Edgware in good condition online, had it checked over and it now plays well and I'm enjoying practising again. Including a checkup, I paid less than GBP200 so I don't think I could have done much better for the price.
However, I'm aware of the long and many discussions on here about the intonation of the slightly larger bore. I've also read every thread discussing whether the correct bore mouthpiece is essential or not, so I won't get into that discussion again.
What I'm trying to work out is whether I am going to stand out (and not in a good way!) when we do finally meet together for rehearsals.
I've been experimenting with tuner apps (a luxury I didn't have when originally learning) and I've found from my experiments that getting the clarinet tuned well across the range is a struggle. The heatwave we are having here may not helping, but it's not just a case of being sharp across the range, although with no pull out many notes are over 50 cents sharp.
Having an engineering mind, I put together a spreadsheet (with graphs) and have been experimenting with different amounts of pull out, different mouthpieces etc (A process I've enjoyed). But I've now reached the point where I don't know whether the best outcome I can reach with this instrument is going to work in a concert band setting, even an amateur one.
I've put a list of the best intonation I've been able to identify and the conditions, plus the alternatives I've tried below. I'd love some experienced input as to how it stands up to what should be expected. I'm aware that practise and perfecting
embouchure will improve things too, but that will likely be a long term ongoing process. I do have access to a local musician who turns barrels for a hobby with positive reviews and is willing to try different bore sizes, so I'd be interested to hear feedback on whether that might improve things too.
Results: (B&H Edgware circa 1970, Mouthpiece B40, Original barrel pulled out 4mm, middle joint 1mm, tuner set to A440, Legere Signature 2.75 Reed)
E3 -19
F3 -11
G3 13
A3 9
B3 5
C4 10
D4 12
E4 8
F4 4
G4 4
A4 8
B4 -15
C5 -5
D5 7
E5 1
F5 -2
G5 8
A5 8
B5 15
C6 13
D6 -15
Other mouthpieces tried: Hite Premier, B&H 593 (Facing 2) , Buffet F1A (116/16.5), Buffet F3A (125)
If you've read this far, then thank you! Apologies for not being able to keep it short after all...
Gavin
"Clarinets, like lawyers, have cases, mouthpieces, and they need a constant supply of hot air in order to function."
- Victor Borge
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2020-08-11 02:21
I'm not too familiar with the Edgware but I have played Boosey and Hawks 1010s and I believe they (and maybe the 926 too) where the only model the required the cylindrical bore mouthpieces.
That said I'm not sure why your middle staff "B" and the third space "C" are flat. A normal result (without compensating in some way with embouchure) would be for those notes to be slightly sharp. Also, I'm not sure how you got those results. The "best" method would be to have a compatriot write down what he sees on the tuner as you play from some distance away (the key is not for you to see the tuner).
First I'd say that it is best to go for an embouchure that is somewhat relaxed. You want support all around the mouthpiece (like a rubber band) but you want to be able to move higher in pitch as well as lower in pitch on any given note on the fly.
More specifically I'd try to zero in on being 'ON THE MONEY' with your open "G" and embouchure ......in the middle (again, being able to adjust up and down from there. Once you've got that I'd say the notes down to the "C" should be pretty close, not a lot sharper as it looks in your current chart. Now skip up to the fourth line "D" through the "A." Those notes should be pretty easy to keep where you have your open "G" at zero.......... in theory.
Anyway, I'd start there and then try to wrangle notes up and down from those into the fold. To be really close to pitch, you want to keep things within 4cents sharp (remember, it's better to be "sharp" then out of tune!).
As far as community groups go, accurate intonation is not going to happen. So you just need to be able to zig and zag with what's going on. Chances are pretty good once the trumpets get into the fray you'll wind up having to push in.
.................Paul Aviles
Post Edited (2020-08-11 05:06)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2020-08-11 03:56
What length is the barrel you're using and what are the first two numbers of the serial number?
67mm is the standard length barrel for the narrower bore B&H clarinets (Regent through to Imperial 926) and anything shorter can make the throat notes painfully sharp.
The barrels marked 'Short' on the back are 62mm which is too short for many players and obviously will need to be pulled out a considerable amount to make the instrument play in tune with itself given that certain notes are meant to be flat (such as the low E and F which are meant to be flat).
Any modern mouthpiece designed for French clarinets can be used on Edgwares, Emperors and Imperial 926 (as well as the plastic Regents) as they have the narrower bore compared to the 1010.
You shouldn't have to pull out the middle tenon on them and on some where the same with tenon slot was used, that will make the joints wobble around like anything as the tenon shoulder is non-existent on them.
I only recently serviced a set of 1978 Emperors (essentially Edgwares but with silver plated keys) and both Bb and A had a long (67mm) and short (62mm) barrels. The same barrels can be used on both Bb and A which makes switching between them easier, but they could've at least supplied barrels of a couple of in-between lengths other than two 67mm and two 62mm to offer the player more options other than being flat or with a short barrel pulled out to the point of it wobbling. They did make barrels of in-between lengths, but they tuned best with the 67mm barrel pulled out by around 1-2mm once warmed up.
My first clarinet was a 1965 Series 2-20 and the barrel on that was 65mm which was too short for me when I used Vandoren mouthpieces - I switched to a set of late Selmer Balanced Tone Bb and early Centered Tone A clarinets after I had my B&H stolen when I was at college in the '80s.
I've more recently been using Legere Signature European reeds (3.25) and they have made the throat notes flat compared to cane reeds and using a slightly shorter 66mm barrel on my Selmers (now CT and Series 9) has helped bring them up to pitch, but the throat notes on Edgware and similar B&H clarinets are on the sharp side with the stock barrels pushed all the way in.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: GavinClarinet
Date: 2020-08-11 13:20
Hi Chris, thanks for the reply.
The barrel I have is 65mm apparently, with no other markings on it but the B&H London logo.
The serial number is 294494
Not sure what you mean by tenon slot, but the middle tenon and upper tenon have metal rings on the tenon shoulder, so there is no major wobble at the middle joint with it pulled out.
I tried that because I understood it tended to flatten the 'right hand' notes, whereas the barrel would flatten more the left hand/throat notes, but I may have misunderstood. It deed seem to make some difference, although in my initial testing there was a significant swing between A4 and B4 and getting the clarion register in tune seems to push B4 quite flat.
The guy who checked it over for me claimed the intonation was reasonable with the exception of throat A which was very sharp and that seems to be the case. It looks like a longer barrel may be worth investigating.
One of the people who runs the band I have joined does turn his own barrels, based on the measurements of a certain after market make, and apparently has had good results, so that may be worth considering. (The bore of my Edgware at the top joint appears to be 14.9)
Regards
Gavin
"Clarinets, like lawyers, have cases, mouthpieces, and they need a constant supply of hot air in order to function."
- Victor Borge
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Author: GavinClarinet
Date: 2020-08-11 13:28
Many thanks for the comprehensive answer Paul!
I tried to be consistent with noting the tuning by not looking at the tuner until each note had stabilised, but it obviously isn't as good as having someone else doing it. This was during lockdown, so had to do it myself.
The swing between a very sharp A4 and flat B4 confused me too - but seemed to be consistent across all mouthpieces and reeds that I tried. It means for me currently tuning on B4 isn't that helpful as it throws everything else out.
Paul's reply seems to suggest the barrel I have is too short, so investigating that may improve things.
The embouchure tips are very helpful, thank you. It's definitely something I need to practise, but the guide you've given will give a much better target to work towards. Hopefully that will enable me to cope with whatever the trumpets throw at me!
"Clarinets, like lawyers, have cases, mouthpieces, and they need a constant supply of hot air in order to function."
- Victor Borge
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2020-08-11 18:16
Your Edgware is from around 1969 and I think B&H may have dealt with the tenon cork width issues by then. In the early '60s all the tenons had the same width tenon cork which is fine for the top tenon and lower joint tenon, but the middle tenon being much shorter meant the tenon cork was too wide and there was only the metal tenon ring and the wooden tenon ring by the shoulder was less than 0.5mm wide instead of being a much better 2-3mm wide to make a secure fit in the socket (and the middle tenon is the most important one where stability goes). The missing wooden tenon ring can be rebuilt with superglue and wood dust, then machined to a decent width and diameter to fit the socket.
Plastic Regents were supplied with the standard length barrel and if you know someone with one of them, see if you can try that barrel to see what it does to the tuning and intonation and being plastic (either moulded bakelite for the '60s/'70s Regents and ABS for the '80s ones), the bore size and shape will be much better to measure from as it won't have gone oval as can happen with some wooden barrels. If you are going to have a replacement barrel made from wood, insist it has either metal or carbon fibre socket rings as all sockets on wooden instruments need that reinforcement to safeguard against the socket cracking.
Some Edgwares in both Bb and A were also machined from PVC and had ebonite tonehole chimneys - probably one of the few instances of plastic A clarinets offered by any maker at that time. The tenons and sockets on them were a perfect fit and could be assembled and remain held together even without tenon corks fitted - there aren't many clarinets that can do that. The tenon fit on wooden ones isn't as good as the metal tenon rings are considerably narrower than the sockets.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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