 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: ruben
Date: 2020-07-16 13:13
Is an Albert system clarinet in its developed form very different to an oehler German clarinet in terms of bore, flare (taper in US English), and fingerings. Have many Classical players played on Albert-system clarinets? We discussed Albert in a recent topic on traditional New Orleans jazz and spoke of its virtues, but haven't spoken of its use in Classical music.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: ruben
Date: 2020-07-16 17:04
I suppose Simeon Bellison of the NY Philharmonic played Albert system. Correct me if I'm wrong.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2020-07-16 22:07
The basic fingerings are the same on both simple/Albert systems and on German and Oehler systems - only German and Oehler systems have more keys and mechanisms to make some things easier or better tuned and vented.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2020-07-17 01:59
We are so used to the standard Boehm, which has remained relatively stable in its key and ring arrangement for over a century, that we need a different orientation to the 13-key clarinet of Iwan Muller, which was very much a "work in progress" and just didn't stay put the way the Boehm has. Henry Lazarus played a clarinet made by Eugene Albert, probably similar to the one shown here: https://collections.ed.ac.uk/mimed/record/14995?highlight=albert.
That modification of the Muller clarinet had only 2 rings. But it was not long before Albert himself added more rings for a total of at least 4, and he and other designers were busy making more improvements on subsequent models leading to 5-ring Alberts. From the 1860s till around 1900 there must have been many classical players using some version of these. Buffet was making Albert system clarinets before, during, and after the introduction of their Boehm system, which took some time to catch on. Osker Oehler was making relatively simple system clarinets BEFORE he decided to add all the bells and whistles that now appear on the German and Oehler clarinets. When I heard that Marie Ross had recorded the Brahms sonatas on "Oehler" clarinets, I made the mistake of asking why she didn't use the Baermann/Ottensteiner instruments, and she correctly put me straight by replying that the Oehler-built instruments she used WERE Ottensteiner system, not the later Oehler system. So in other words not all Oehler clarinets are Oehler system. The Albert instruments also changed with time, and I believe one of the last of the Albert family also made some Albert Boehm system clarinets!! Accurate history of music instruments is complex and not to be represented with cliches and facile generalities.
The LSU Jazz Museum in New Orleans has in its musical collection clarinets owned by Larry Shields, Lorenzo Tio, and Leon Roppolo that I have seen:Shields' Albert has 2 rings, Tios' has 4 rings, and Roppolo's has 5. https://www.twitter.com/nolajazzmuseum/status/974694651860054016/photo/2. So the evolution of the instrument continued in the jazz world. Clarinet collector Eberhard Kraut shows photos of "Full Albert" Selmers from 1920 or 30 that have 6 rings and a quite full panoply of keys. The non-German clarinet world made Boehms and Alberts, in ways probably not much influenced by Oehler, but in the German/Austrian world, the Albert and the Ottensteiner instruments were modified by Oscar Oehler and kindred craft people to match a different tonal ideal and emerge as the Oehler instrument.
Michelle Zukofsky would know exactly which system Simeon Bellison played.
Post Edited (2020-07-18 00:21)
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2020-07-17 02:27
>> When I heard that Marie Ross had recorded the Brahms sonatas on "Oehler" clarinets, I made the mistake of asking why she didn't use the Baermann/Ottensamer instruments, and she correctly put me straight by replying that the Oehler-built instruments she used WERE Ottensamer system, not the later Oehler system.>>
You mean Ottensteiner, not Ottensamer, I imagine.
Tony
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2020-07-17 03:23
Thanks, Tony; I corrected the name. You've played all sorts of historical clarinets, so how would you respond to Ruben's question?
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Author: JTJC
Date: 2020-07-17 17:01
I notice on Lazarus’ Alberts there’s an interesting detail. If you look where the tenon starts there’s a small groove just above the cork. It’s on all the joints and is presumably there for a reason. Not a feature I can recall seeing (or maybe not noticing) on any modern instruments. Could it be a trap for excess joint grease? Any ideas?
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Author: tyleman
Date: 2020-07-17 18:07
fwiw, Selmer continued to make Selmer Improved Alberts up until the "M" series of serial numbers. I believe Duke Ellington clarinetist Russell Procope owned two "M" Alberts. I have a copy of Selmer's 1910 catalog and the Improved model is included, so it was in production from at least then until WWII.
Post Edited (2020-10-19 20:29)
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Author: ruben
Date: 2020-07-17 19:05
Russel Procope did own two Selmer Alberts. He was never tempted to switch to Boehm, all the more so as the Duke played on the contrasting tones of Procope and Jimmy Hamilton's.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2020-07-17 22:40
Have you ever heard anyone play on a well set-up Albert C clarinet? That might be the star performer in the Albert system line-up. Usually no one would associate the adjectives warm, haunting, and soulful with the high-strung, obstreperous smaller instrument, but I have more than once heard Albert C performers eliciting those characteristics from the instrument. Hear, for example Ian Boyter in Blues for Alan,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1X32GDxqiYo.
Now, unamplified in an orchestra, this same kind of rather breathy sound might be swallowed up and not carry very far from the stage. So, that is the other side of the coin.
Post Edited (2020-07-18 05:10)
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Author: ruben
Date: 2020-07-17 23:36
Thank you for posting, Seabreeze! Wonderful sounds from the normally squeaky C clarinet.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: ruben
Date: 2020-07-18 13:42
Seabreez: still no recorded examples of Albert used in Classical music!
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2020-07-18 22:32
Henry Lazarus would have been the one to hear, but, alas, he gave his farewell concert in 1892 and died in 1895. STan Stanford (avid collector of old clarinet recordings) begins his list with Sousa Band soloist August Stangler and William Tuson recordings from 1898 to 1903. I don't know what system clarinets they used. By the time of Lazarus's death, the Boehm instrument was clearly taking hold in France and America, and Lazarus's successors in England seem also to have veered off toward the Boehm. If sound recording technology had been developed and available from say 1850 to 1880, Albert system classical players would have been well represented.
Acceptance of new clarinet systems has ever been a dicey and unpredictable thing. Iwan Muller's 13 key instrument was considered too innovative at first, just as the Klose/Boehm system would be when first introduced. Cavallini resisted using anything newer than his 6-key boxwood; to him Muller's "omnitonic" instrument and the later Albert were laden with too much mechanism. He stuck with lightness and simplicity of design.
Post Edited (2020-07-19 01:36)
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2020-07-19 21:17
>> [Tony], you've played all sorts of historical clarinets, so how would you respond to Ruben's question? >>
Well, some of the things he wanted were technical measurements, which I don't have.
I do have a couple of anecdotes. When I was 9, I was taken by my father to a second-hand shop in Bishopsgate (December 1954: I wonder what shop that was) and obtained a 'mongrel' unmarked Boehm clarinet, which I wasn't allowed to see again till Christmas Day, because it was a Christmas present.
On the way home, we called at the house of an old ex-professional clarinettist in Leyton, who looked at my instrument and rather pooh-poohed it. He got an old case from the top of his wardrobe, and showed me his pair of Albert clarinets.
"THOSE are the instruments you should be playing on!" he said.
(No idea who he was, either.)
Over the years, I've accumulated dozens of instruments, including a pair of Albert system clarinets, and when we had to play a programme with OAE of later than classical music, this was the closest I could get to Brahms/Wagner instruments. |(That's at the time: I can do better now.) I wrote about what I had to do on the Klarinet list here.
I have no solo recording of myself on these instruments; but we did make a recording with Manny Ax of the Chopin piano concerti and some other pieces a couple of weeks later. I used my 'modified' Alberts, and you can hear them in the orchestral section by searching on Youtube for those pieces with Charles Mackerras and the OAE.
(I think they sound good:-)
Tony
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2020-07-19 22:35
On the YouTube video of Ian Boyter it looks like he's playing a left-handed instrument. Is the picture inverted, or does he really play this way?
I imagine that a left-handed Albert C clarinet would be a rather rare specimen!
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2020-07-19 23:20
In his second comment below the video, Boyter says the picture in the video is "inverted," and he promises that subsequent videos will not have that distortion.
Post Edited (2020-07-19 23:51)
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Author: cigleris
Date: 2020-07-20 01:52
I have a vague memory that Colin Lawson recorded a disc of Victorian repertoire on an Albert system. Possibly for Clarinet Classics
Peter Cigleris
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Author: cigleris
Date: 2020-07-20 23:38
Seabreeze the link you have posted is Colin Bradbury’s he plays Boosey 1010s and not Albert system. Colin Lawson’s on the other hand is using the Albert system. Btw Colin Bradbury’s disc is worth having in the collection.
Peter Cigleris
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Author: ruben
Date: 2020-07-21 12:51
Tony: Thank you for the information and I will listen to the Chopin Piano Concerti with pleasure. You mentioned Brahms/Wagner clarinets. -rightly so, as Mühfeld played at the Bayreuth Festival and I presume he used the same clarinets as he did for Brahms. So the old Brahms/ Wagner opposition we have been hearing about for 150 years doesn't seem to apply to the clarinets they used!
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: donald
Date: 2020-07-21 16:27
The Oskar Oehler A clarinet that Dr Marie Ross used for her recording mentioned above was played in the Bayreuth Festival around the same time that Muhlfeld played (though, they were owned/played by another player) and there are records of Muhlfeld recommending Oehler (as a maker) to other players. Those instruments give a representation of what players liked, and what Brahms/Muhlfeld would have heard around them, rather than being a direct copy of the clarinet Muhlfeld played (some of the modern copies are not really historically accurate anyway, which kind of defeats the purpose I think, not wanting to name any maker in particular.....).
I've played a few Albert clarinets in my time, and own a very fine C clarinet (unfortunately at high pitch darn it) that I would not hesitate to use for some repertoire, except for the nuisance that it is at hp. I also know of a set (C-Bb-A) of Albert Boehm clarinets sitting unused in a cupboard in USA that I'm looking forward to trying out someday...
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