 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: ruben
Date: 2020-07-18 11:07
How has Finland -a small country with a population of 5 and a half million people- achieved such incredible prominence in the world of Classical music? When you think of the number of conductors, composers, singers..great clarinetists they have produced in the last 40 years...! How do they do it? I imagine they have a great musical education system.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2020-07-18 11:55
They also do incredibly well in automotive sports. Is there a link?
Tony F.
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Author: ISM
Date: 2020-07-18 18:09
Ruben,
I don’t know anything about the musical education system in particular, but there has been a lot of buzz in recent years about how wonderful Finland’s education system is. If you do an internet search on this, there is lots to review. Books have also been written on the subject.
Two notable features of Finnish education are a focus on equity and reduction of homework requirements compared to, say, the USA. Could it be that more musical talent and interest is being identified and nurtured early on because of the focus on equity and that students have more time to practice after school without the burden of excess homework?
As I’ve hinted in another post, it is my suspicion (as a hobbyist clarinetist) that practice is more important than, say, ligature selection for our instrument.
Imre
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Author: Johan H Nilsson
Date: 2020-07-22 18:35
The music educational system is not different from the other Nordic countries.
Is the difference between say Norway and Finland that big when it comes to classical composers and musicians?
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Author: Johan H Nilsson
Date: 2020-07-23 15:16
Dan Shusta wrote:
> Perhaps this reveals that Finland's educational system is
> somehow better than the other Nordic countries.
Yes, it's known that Finland has good PISA scores. I guess it's more difficult to find any data on different countries' success in classical music. They probably correlate so it would be no surprise if countries like Finland and South Korea that perform well in the PISA scores also have a high percentage of successful classical musicians.
Since I don't see very much difference in the structure of the education between the Nordic countries, structure cannot be the root cause of the Finnish success. The difference is somewhere else. Countries could copy the Finnish education without getting anywhere.
As always, the low hanging fruit is average IQ. Here's a fun article on SAT scores and musical taste.
https://ledgernote.com/features/high-sat-scores-taste-in-music/
Post Edited (2020-07-23 15:18)
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2020-07-24 00:27
Sort of off-topic: Just curious, what do you folks think about the zillions of symphonies written by Leif Segerstam? I accidentally "discovered" a few of them on YouTube, they are....interesting.......sort of.
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2020-07-24 01:53
Wow! And Mozart was once accused of having "too many notes" in one of his symphony pieces!
This one with Leif Segerstam is absolutely mind blowing (to me) and must contain about a zillion notes!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tZdHDapvrkE
(By the way, Leif has written 339 symphony pieces.)
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2020-07-24 06:07
Paul, thanks for the correction.
David, I found Segerstam Symphony No. 5 to be...uh...strange and kind of weird. It was almost like listening to the background music of a morbid movie. I had to turn it off. I was starting to get depressed.
Perhaps it's because he did not receive his musical training in Finland.
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Author: Jarmo Hyvakko
Date: 2020-07-24 12:47
There is a very comprehensive system of music institutes round Finland where children can get musical education including private instrument lessons right from the beginning with a quite modest annual fee. State and cities support the institutes financially.
And there are over twenty professional symphony or chamber orchestras in Finland, most of them doing lots of work visiting schools, organising school concerts, visiting places where people tend to be etc.
The big challenge is first of all to get children interested in music as a hobby. They are so interested in other things nowadays! Also in our time, when there are so many especially right wing politicians, that are so worried, that "do we afford the services of a wellfare state", to secure the funding.
Just watched the movie "the big short" yesterday, so the amount of money seems not to be the problem in the world, the problem is that the money is stuck in pockets, that you can't get it out of...
Jarmo Hyvakko, Principal Clarinet, Tampere Philharmonic, Finland
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Author: Johan H Nilsson
Date: 2020-07-24 18:30
Jarmo, regarding "the money is stuck in pockets, that you can't get it out of", that's a problem you share with pickpockets.
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Author: Johan H Nilsson
Date: 2020-07-24 18:35
Dan, that's an impressive list. Per capita, Latvia and Estonia stand out even more than Finland.
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2020-07-25 00:11
Johan, since Latvia and Estonia have higher rankings, then, perhaps, that's not the reason why the Finns stand out.
I like Jarmo Hyvakko response very much. Basically, it comes down to musical exposure at a very young age coupled with lessons that are either free or at a very reasonable cost. I highly recommend reading his response again.
Now, I view exposure in two different ways. The first is simply having very young people listen to musicians playing all kinds of instruments.
The second uses the first method coupled with actual, hands on exposure. I believe the combination of the two is best. Young people just listening to live music may make them feel intrigued, maybe even happy, however, I believe that holding an instrument in their hands and trying to produce a note would probably be far more exciting to them. And, if they have trouble producing a sound, a teacher of that particular instrument could possibly help them get started in the right direction of producing a sound.
All of this, from my point of view, requires money. Comparing different countries by their differing governmental or monetary systems might reveal a startling contrast. To me, the type of government that contributes generously to the musical arts will most likely produce more highly qualified musicians. I do realize that we might be comparing very conservative, capitalistic governments with more socialized ones and that can lead to all kinds of contentious arguments, however, when you look at the musical end results, there's an old saying that goes something like: "The proof is in the pudding."
I really don't want to go off topic and talk about differing governmental systems, however, if you honestly compare the musical end results, I believe the answer should become rather clear.
Post Edited (2020-07-25 02:07)
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Author: Jarmo Hyvakko
Date: 2020-07-26 15:03
Johan H Nilsson: ...and those culture-friendly pickpockets we desperately need! 😝
Jarmo Hyvakko, Principal Clarinet, Tampere Philharmonic, Finland
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Author: Johan H Nilsson
Date: 2020-07-26 23:29
Dan,
"since Latvia and Estonia have higher rankings, then, perhaps, that's not the reason why the Finns stand out."
Finns and Baltic people are genetically quite close. Estonia is the top European country in the PISA test results. Incredible considering they were occupied by the Soviet Union for 40 years and the following brain drain to the West.
"I like Jarmo Hyvakko response very much. Basically, it comes down to musical exposure at a very young age coupled with lessons that are either free or at a very reasonable cost. I highly recommend reading his response again."
Then the rest of the Nordic countries should be as successful. They all teach music in elementary schools and have free-of-charge "cultural schools" where those who want can take up the most common instruments.
Also be aware these structures with free music education were created in the 1970s and can't explain the list of historical composers.
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2020-07-27 07:26
The following article, although a bit tedious to read, is entitled "30 years of Music in Finland." There are so many topics discussed, that it would be extremely difficult for me to summarize. Although written in 2004, I believe it still contains the basic, essential elements necessary to formulate an answer to ruben's initial question at the very beginning of this thread.
I believe there are three main items to take into serious consideration: 1) The Finnish language is only understood by the Finnish people and very few of those in Norway, Sweden, and Russia who have origins in Finland. 2) Of the multitude of musical genres mentioned (and there are many), they were basically local due to the language barrier and finally 3) the greater popularity of classical music (my interpretation) due to the one sentence paragraph in the middle of the article under "Language and music" which states emphatically:"For a long time, the only Finnish music to reach a wider international audience was classical orchestral music – which of course has no lyrics." (The bold added my me.)
So, I believe, that with the largest audience available beyond the borders, it is my belief that many musicians were swayed towards classical music.
This is simply my belief. Yes, the article, IMO, is rather tedious and covers a lot of ground besides simply music, however, hopefully you will find it a worthwhile read.
https://fmq.fi/articles/30-years-of-music-in-finland
p.s. One might also want to take into consideration that Finland has 29 orchestras and opera houses, 17 conservatoires, 2 Chamber orchestras, and 2 youth orchestras which might equate to good job opportunities.
https://www.musicalchairs.info/finland/orchestras
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_symphony_orchestras_in_Europe
Post Edited (2020-07-27 09:30)
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Author: Johan H Nilsson
Date: 2020-07-31 00:02
The language theory is interesting, but applies to more or less every small country in Europe. Danish and Norwegian native language singers have quite a small home market.
What could be argued is that Finnish belongs to a non-Germanic language stem and therefore Finns have a bigger language barrier. If you ever listened to a Finnish rally driver interview, you know what I mean. Finland for instance never won the Eurovison song contest until they sent the hard-rock group Lordi to turn the competition upside down.
When I look at the wikipedia list of symphony orchestras, Denmark, Norway and Finland all have about 8 full scale orchestras (and about the same population). What are the hard facts on Finland's superiority per capita?
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