 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: marsheng
Date: 2020-06-13 04:55
After many weeks my Valentino pads have arrived here in New Zealand.
The pads are quite firm. Much firmer than I though they would be and firmer than any felt I have.
It means that I have to very careful in glueing them in to make sure they are parallel to the hole to seal.
From various discussions, neoprene was another option. The 2 bits of closed cell neoprene I got are quite a bit softer. This means that they will seal a bit easier and over time will probably form an indentation similar to the hole for a prefect seal.
I also purchased, The Clarinet Revealed book and although written in the style of 1950s, has some really useful info. Ernest makes the comment that the pads can absorb sound if soft.
So my guess is, if I want a professional sounding instrument, best I get the Valentino pads correct, but, as this is my first rebuild, the softer pads may be a starting option with possibly a slightly duller sound ? .
Appreciate comments or show where this may have been discussed before.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2020-06-13 08:42
The standard operating procedure for installing clarinet pads is to "float them in." Traditionally, in the old days, shellac was used. You heat the cup enough so that the pad can be gently leveled to the surface of the tone hole. More modern repair people use a form of "hot glue" (one fellow I know calls his type "Georgia Glue"). With that you can heat the cup with a hair dryer.
Even with soft pads it is almost a requirement to get the pads level........just smushing the pads down will yield poor results. I must tell on myself. Recently I tried to use Valentino Greenbacks on a $25 horn just smashing them in for a cold, rainy parade. I wound up paying the $200 to have a local guy do his budget job on it because it was so damn leaky.
As far as pad material goes I'm in the middle of a very long term trial to figure out whether it is the material or the architecture of the pad that is most important. Preliminarily it seems that pads that feature a really flat surface (that usually necessitates more rigidity) have a more reflective quality and that seems to make the sound pop more (such as cork pads used for the top joint by many top repair folks). One notable exception was the Yamaha Luciene Deluxe Pads. The were basically a typical fish skin covered felt pad but they were particularly flat and sounded much better (louder; more focused) than the average felt pad.
I currently use Quartz Resonance pads which are mostly silicone. Therefore they have a slightly mushy feel when you press down on the rings BUT the surface is coated with a red crystalline structure and they remain almost smooth as glass even after a year on the horn (no seat whatsoever!!!). Though mostly impressed with their sound, I want to go back (in some fashion) to the Valentino Masters to compare. But this will be way down the road. So far I'm quite happy with them.
..................Paul Aviles
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Author: donald
Date: 2020-06-13 10:45
Definitely don't bother installing the top quality pads on your first go, do a couple of student horns with softer pads to work up to it.
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Author: ruben
Date: 2020-06-13 13:25
Dear Paul (and everybody else)l: silicone reflects the pressure waves really well. We have experimented with this by making our own silicone pads, but this didn't work because silicone didn't give the necessary imprint/indentation. If you have a silicone foam-like material, the imprint (is this the right word?) wouldn't be necessary. Is there a difference between "fish-skin pads" and "bladder pads"? I find that these old-fashioned pads are best, but wear out too fast. Some players in France still swear by them because of their, according to them, superior acoustic properties: Philippe Cuper, for example. But they don't have to pay for their repair work!
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
Post Edited (2020-06-13 15:49)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2020-06-13 15:46
Sorry for the added confusion. Fish-skin is an old term for "bladder" material.
The Clarissono Quartz Resonance Pads (QRP) don't really develop a seat (crease, imprint) and that posses a challenge to installation. The tone holes must be even and the pads must be floated in with precision. But once installed correctly (this requires great skill.....NOT for beginners or average techs) they seal like cork and are as silent as any felt pad..........best of both worlds (?). I still would like to have the new horn (going on a year and a half now) in some form of trial with Valentino Masters to be certain, but the process is expensive and time consuming so I guess having that amount of certainty on this can wait.
...................Paul Aviles
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Author: Steven Ocone
Date: 2020-06-13 15:46
Pad material is not as important as proper installation (so that it seals).
One issue with Valentino pads is that they can deform with heat, so a glue with a lower melting point is desirable. This is more of an issue for larger pads. I routinely have to pull out a larger pad I've been installing and start over.
Bladder pads are more heat resistant and easier to learn how to float.
Steve Ocone
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Author: ruben
Date: 2020-06-13 16:11
Paul: I checked out the QPR. Silicone doesn't develop a seat, as you rightly said. So I wonder how it's possible to get a good seal without this imprint that envelops the tone hole. We were never able to achieve this with silicone, but there exist many types of silicone. Maybe ours wasn't soft and flexible enough. Also the price of QPR: astronomical! They claim their pads last forever, so this could amortize the price a bit if it's true.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: Ken Lagace
Date: 2020-06-13 17:14
There is another downside to 'mashing them in'. They can 'unmash' over time and leak. First time I mashed a pad in, the instrument played beautifully but next day it leaked again. I learned my lesson.
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2020-06-13 23:06
Not really mentioned are the cork pads and the leather pads, as well as the Valentino pads.
I realize a lot of people may disagree, but that's why there is this forum. I still like the firmer feel of cork pads in the upper register. If sealed correctly, testing with the very thin cigarette paper these pads will last for a very long time, many years. I like the feel of these pads, because once you place, push your fingers down there is so little play in the pads, also the sound can be a lot different, so the air bounces off of the cork pads and the air flow and the sound isn't absorbed. Yes this is perhaps not noticeable in most cases.
With the Valentino, the Green backs or whatever you like in the synthetic materials they are surely firmer than leather pads. They are fairly easy to seal, again using a small piece of cigarette paper to check if the pads are sealed. These also last a very long time, compared to fish skin/bladder pads. The sound in my opinion is about the same as the skin pads. See the link below, using cigarette paper to test for leaks.
As for leather pads they are becoming very popular because they are soft and easy to seal the tone holes. however the feel of the pads can be a bit squishy when pressing down the keys. I don't like this feel. I also think the sound changes a lot. For example, on sax pads they often have leather pads, but there are plastic resonators built into the pads to brighten up the sound. But with clarinets the leather pads are a bit small to put on these resonators. Because of this I like the harder Valentino pads right now.
JL Smith sell the hard and hotter melting point called shellac bars. I still use these. Smith also sells Melt Glue Pellets, amber in color. You only need 1 or 2 pellets, at the most 3 pellets, depends on the pad and cup sizes. These heat up at a much lower temperature. The order number at Smith is 105014. 1/4 pound bags will last you many years, unless you are in the repair business. I haven't tried Georges Glue, I have a feeling it might melt even at a lower temperature compared to these pellets. It takes a bit of practice to seal pads really well, to make the horns completely leak free. This is the goal, to completely seal the horn, air tight.
Check out Tom's youtube pad sealing. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rO-HIZ2uxrU Tom is a very talented man, went to Oberlin, plays with a double lip, worked at LeBlanc, makes mouthpieces and for many years now he has very good clarinet line.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2020-06-14 06:40
My impression is that in the United States cork pads on the upper joint are still preferred by many players and a long list of good, well-known repair techs, including Melanie Wong, John Butler, and Ryan Pereira, routinely carry them. Bladder pads on the upper joint are thought to contribute to water build up and gurgling in the sound and are especially problematic on throat register keys.
Post Edited (2020-06-26 02:06)
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Author: Pereira3D
Date: 2020-06-14 07:47
I also prefer to use cork pads on my upper joint and typically install cork pads on the upper joints for overhauls that come in (with the exception of the D/A pad). While Valentino pads are easier to install, you lose some resonance and controlled response compared to cork. I usually install Valentino Masters on the lower joint with the exception of the F#/B-natural pad (a cork pad here improves the range sonically). If a customer is looking for a seamless legato or slightly added warmth to the sound, leather pads on the lower joint also compliment the cork pads well and improve the legato.
It’s also worth noting that if you’re in a climate where humidity is an issue, skin and leather pads can stick quite often. Valentino pads excel in those environments.
Ryan Pereira
Pereira 3D Clarinet Services
www.Pereira3D.com
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Author: ruben
Date: 2020-06-14 10:25
Ryan: Have you ever tried making your own 3D pads? -using materials like carbon fiber, plastics, etc.? You might also come up with a novel shape, like the pyramid shape Selmer uses on its cork register key, which works very well. This shape could be used for other small holes and might make it possible to avoid moisture gathering and produce clearer response; less stuffiness.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
Post Edited (2020-06-14 15:21)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2020-06-14 19:12
All pads, no matter what their density is, have to be seated to close against the tonehole crown and seal it with light pressure. No pad should have to be forced against its tonehole to seal it.
If anything, installing and seating firm pads is much easier than installing and seating soft marshmallow-like pads provided the tonehole crown is perfectly level and free from any defects.
I used to use Pisoni Eva-tex pads on Howarth S10 oboes which are high density EVA foam pads, but they are still very soft compared to cork pads and can only be used with hot glue instead of shellac because excessive heat will distort them. They had a self adhesive backing which I used to trim off with a razor blade along with around 1mm of the thickness of the pad as they were too thick, but the removable wax paper backing side could also successfully seat onto toneholes and felt more positive than the foam side. As long as your toneholes are all well prepped, practically anything completely flat and non-porous will seat against them.
But with firm pads, the mechanism also has to be well fitted as firm pads have very little give and have to close against their toneholes the same each and every time. And cork pads also need to be prepped to ensure they're flat and free from defects. Some people moan about cork pads being too thick or lookig rough when they arrive, but that's cork pads for you - it's up to you to grind them flat, make them the correct thickness and diameter and then they're good to go.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Pereira3D
Date: 2020-06-14 22:39
Hi Ruben,
The idea crossed my mind to partially 3D print pads, but this would most likely be a "casing" possibly printed in carbon fiber or other specialty materials I have (or perhaps even my 3D wood). I wouldn't print the center portion where the seat is made as I don't believe the materials I have would be suitable for creating a seat and holding it over time. The casing idea is interesting, though, especially since I can experiment with beveled edges, etc., and influence the sound with different materials.
Ryan Pereira
Pereira 3D Clarinet Services
www.Pereira3D.com
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Author: marsheng
Date: 2020-06-16 03:11
Steven Ocone wrote:
> One issue with Valentino pads is that they can deform with heat,
> so a glue with a lower melting point is desirable. This is more of
> an issue for larger pads. I routinely have to pull out a larger
> pad I've been installing and start over.
As I had the Valentino pads I decided to try them. I found exactly that. Fortunately I bought a few extra pads so I could complete the job.
I watched Toms video, used the cigarette paper and I now have a working Clarinet. It took quite a while to get the pads seating correctly where 2 holes were closed a the same time eg Lower E. (A Little bend here and there also
Its hard to compare for me as I'm a beginner but there is a difference between my new Ashton plastic and this wooden Corton. PS the Corton keys etc are better made than the Ashton.
The Ashton may sound brighter. The one thing that I have found is the G sounds a lot more airy on the Corton. Not sure what the correct term is. Best descriptions I can say 80 % sound and 20 air where other notes are 100% sound. .
I must say the doing this job has given me a great understanding on the instrument. If a note does not sound correct, I now know where to look.
After reading all the replies, it has helped my understanding in what to try. The leather sounds like a good option for my next one. .
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2020-06-16 07:38
>> The one thing that I have found is the G sounds a lot more airy on the Corton. <<
Not sure which G you are referring to, but check that the key isn't too low. Especially common and easy to miss for a beginner, it's the pad (physically) under the throat A touchpiece. If it's the low G it could also mean the F/C key is too low, possibly both F/C and E/B, but often it's more noticeable on the G than the F (and also much more in the lower register). I assume it's not the high G.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2020-06-16 20:19
Open G is often stuffy if the pad used in the LH1 ring key is too thick and the venting isn't open enough. it's often compromised by the throat A touchpiece which will restrict how far the LH1 ring key can be opened up by to avoid the throat A key clattering against the LH1/open G vent pad cup.
The ring key will need to be adjusted to sit evenly and very slightly higher than the LH1 tonehole chimney - not as high as other ring keys as it's a much smaller diameter ring key.
Some makers do fit either a domed (Selmer) or flat topped (Leblanc)pad cup there with a flattened arm, but others like Buffet use a typical pad cup and cup arm like the others on the instrument and haven't made any allowances nor considerations.
I fit a cork pad in the LH1 pad cup as standard and make it as thin as possible, as well as raising the throat A touchpiece to give more clearance, especially on Buffets.
I just checked and Amati/Corton/Lafleur clarinets have a Buffet-like LH1 pad cup which will mean using a thinner pad to give it more travel and not clatter with the throat A key: https://dawkes-images.s3.amazonaws.com/full/24005912.jpg
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: marsheng
Date: 2020-06-19 15:11
An update. As I'm new to Clarinet (and participating in music) it was quite difficult to compare clarinets.
I decided to only play the Corton for a few and then go back to the Ashton. Hopefully then I can make a better comparison.
Ok the air sound. This was when there were no fingers on the instrument. I think that is G4. (Even naming the notes is difficult, apparently Yamaha says middle C is C3 and everyone else C4 !!)
After a day of pad 'seating' in everything was crisp the next day. I took it along to my teacher and he said it played very well. He did notice that it is heavy. I suppose because it is wood.
After a few more days, I'll give a further update. So far it really does seem a nicer instrument to play.
Corton Foreign Serial number 3578. Using a Bundy mouth piece.
Cheers Wallace.
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Author: marsheng
Date: 2020-06-21 15:07
Chris P wrote:
> Open G is often stuffy if the pad used in the LH1 ring key is too thick and the
> venting isn't open enough.
Thanks I checked that and I have to press the ring key down quite a bit before it interferes with the sound so it wasn't that.
I did find that the RH pad and 3 ring set sometimes stuck on the vent holes. The fix was a 1/4 mm trim off the bottom of the hinge. All 3 rings were very close to the posts so this fixed them all.
Now going back to the Ashton, I cant say I hear much difference. If anything, the top notes on the upper register are easier to hit on the Corton. As I'm still a beginner, every day I get better so not sure if it is the instrument or me that changes.
In the meantime I bought a second hand Selmer Signet 1400EX for a nominal sum.
I stripped the whole thing, and, with a felt pad and Jewellers rouge on a micro Dremil drill did short work of polishing all the parts back to new. The plastic body went in to the ultrasonic and it came out looking like a $Million.
After the great info from the pad replies, I decided to try leather on this one. I have stock of the traditional felt and skin pads but they did not fit. Overseas shipping is also quite slow for any other option at this stage with Covid so I went onto plan B.
I have some very soft 1 mm leather and some composite gasket cork 2 mm 'precision' material. Being a gasket material it has to be pretty flat so that was good.
2mm cork and 1 mm leather matches the existing material thickness. I fabricated a 8.5 mm cutter and made a pad set and put it into the A key. It seated well and passed the cigarette paper test.
I'll press on with the rest in the next couple of days.
PS I have been using shellac as it has a longer working time than hot glue.
Any idea on how good a 1400EX is. I cannot find any reference to it. Only 1400 B
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Author: richard smith
Date: 2020-06-21 18:25
use cork and white kid . Installing is critical and time consuming for best possible fit.
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Author: marsheng
Date: 2020-06-22 01:44
Attachment: TDS-Rubberised-Cork[1].pdf (111k)
richard smith wrote:
> use cork and white kid . Installing is critical and time
> consuming for best possible fit.
That reminded me, I bought this 2ft2 piece of leather to fix my gloves. Very nice and supple.
I looked up the cork material I used to discover that it is not "cork" It is rubberised nitrile. It still however looks like a good cork alternative.
Thanks everyone for you responses. When I read my original posting, I can see how much I have learned in the past few weeks.
Cheers Wallace.
Post Edited (2020-06-22 12:59)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2020-06-22 16:05
"I looked up the cork material I used to discover that it is not "cork" It is rubberised nitrile."
<http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/download.html/1,6778/TDS-Rubberised-Cork[1].pdf>
According to that paper it's granulated cork with nitrile as the binding agent.
It's not suitable for use on woodwind instruments other than key corks - best used under adjusting screws and linkages (around 0.4mm thick) and for key stoppers on closed-standing keys. Ideal for clarinet trill and side keys and sax palm keys. It's not suitable for use as tenon corks or sax crook corks where natural cork has yet to be beaten.
But it should still be suitable as backing discs when making laminated pads because of its density.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2020-06-23 04:46
Chris, there are several ways to make/cut cork, but I'm not sure if I agree with you. Yes you could surely be correct. The cork I'm using I think comes from cork trees. Other corks can surely be processed such as cork gaskets, cork flooring, so forth. So the question is - are cork plugs used in wine bottles cork? Yes I'm aware that some cork now used in wine bottles can be rubberized. But I think the old style is still actual cork? I once made my pads from the old cork wine bottles, because it was softer. Was this treated? The cork I get from JL Smith is pretty much on the softer side. Thanks for your help. Whatever it is, it works!
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2020-06-23 21:49
Bob Bernardo wrote:
> Chris, there are several ways to make/cut cork, but I'm not
> sure if I agree with you. Yes you could surely be correct. The
> cork I'm using I think comes from cork trees. Other corks can
> surely be processed such as cork gaskets, cork flooring, so
> forth. So the question is - are cork plugs used in wine bottles
> cork? Yes I'm aware that some cork now used in wine bottles can
> be rubberized. But I think the old style is still actual cork?
> I once made my pads from the old cork wine bottles, because it
> was softer. Was this treated? The cork I get from JL Smith is
> pretty much on the softer side. Thanks for your help. Whatever
> it is, it works!
>
What are you talking about? You've completely missed the entire point there as I've not even mentioned natural cork - I'm talking about the composition and applications of rubberised cork, gasket cork, Gummi-Kork, tech cork, rubco, etc. and not natural cork which I don't use anywhere apart from the throat A stopper and also the LH2 ring key to keep it off the deck to keep the linkage raised to a decent height. Apart from cork pads and tenon corks that is - for key corks and linkages there are far better alternatives and using natural cork in these aplications had its day decades ago.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2020-06-25 00:13)
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