 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Dee
Date: 2001-07-04 16:33
The greenish brown shade simply means that it is a hard rubber clarinet that has had too much exposure to light. I have so informed the seller. In this case, it sounds like the seller is merely uninformed about clarinets.
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Author: David
Date: 2001-07-04 19:29
Obviously. Did anybody else notice he had the mouthpeice on backwards??
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Author: ron b
Date: 2001-07-04 20:07
Looking at the beast from a different angle, (is this what a Devil's advocate does?), it doesn't actually look too bad (to me) :
The green can be helped, not totally eliminated perhaps but, with super special secret cleaning solution -- [ bleach ) ] -- and careful buffing I've had pretty good results with green horns punnnnn.
I've also *heard of* players who play double lip with the reed on top. I've never seen it, never tried it, just heard of it. That's enough for anybody.
Not to make excuses for the seller but, as Dee points out, I would assume Staffco is merely uninformed; wants to sell something that looks like it might be interesting to someone out there and, well, it has a Selmer mouthpiece and the price is low -- what more can we ask? ::::]
Only thing I'd really want to check out if I were inclined to bid on it would be: is the instrument itself actually a Selmer(?) and, what kind of metal the keys are. Pot metal is certain death.
- ron b -
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Author: mw
Date: 2001-07-04 20:47
For one, we discussed Selmer, Paris (Hard Rubber) Clarinets some 8-10 months ago. Sure, they could turn green with age.
'
http://www.sneezy.org/Databases/Logs/2000/11/000293.txt
If I had that Selmer for 20 minutes I could remove almost all of the green. Give me 60 hours & I will remove 100% of discoloration/photo-tint (Bleaching is just a part of the process .... )
Best,
mw
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2001-07-04 21:37
Out of an abundance of NON-caution, I pushed the bid up a bit on the previous bidder, thinking that someone might really want an old HR Sel HS* [why, I dont know!]. It looks like an old Bundy HR to me, needing hours of TLC. Go for it! Don
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Author: mw
Date: 2001-07-04 22:14
Man those "ALL CAPS" are hard to read. Forget about the music being too loud so as to cause hearing loss, those CAPS are going to give everybody an aneurism or make us go blind.
The tip on the Selmer HS* appears a bit thin, not characteristic of HS*'s I have seen that have a (relatively) thicker tip rail. Looks like the inside of the Bell may have been glued, gunked or somebody was using it as a utensil to spoon their Oatmeal with (hey, I'm a Quaker guy anyway).
Best,
mw
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2001-07-04 22:59
Mark - Not really differing with your post, the "thin tip" on the mp IMHO shows that it hasn't been tinkered with and I see no scratches/chips etc on table and rails, SO, if anyone wants a ?cheap? old HR [close - French] mp , bid it up!! Don
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Author: mw
Date: 2001-07-05 00:06
Don, agree that the Table & Side Rails look great. BUT, in talking to several refacers, I have been told there is a reason why some Tips rails are thin. I have 20 or so (new, old stock) HS* & 10 or more used HS*'s. Of the latter 5 are Tables & they appear somewhat thicker in the Tip Rail than the 1975-80ish HS*'s. (I have reviewed them) Maybe its a reflection in the photo, & we aren't seeing all of the Tip (light obscuring part of the tip). I don't reface mouthpieces. I watched someone reface & when I saw how long it took to do so little, I decided against (ever) trying it. So please correct my understanding. Thanks. mw
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Author: mw
Date: 2001-07-05 02:43
Don, there isn't a great deal written about facing mouthpieces. Please feel free to correct me, if _any_ of my understandings are INCORRECT. Thanks, mw
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2001-07-05 12:44
mw are you saying that you can totally reverse the process that turns hard rubber green and makes it stink? If you do this then I presume you have the chemistry knowledge to explain to me (in chemical terms) just what happens when UV (?) light causes surface deterioration. I'm really curious to know more about this.
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2001-07-05 15:17
Hi Gordon NZ!!, didn't we discuss the brown-green [HR decomposition by sunlight?] recently here [or on "bass clarinet"] ? Knowing a "smidgen" of chemistry, and that the later-era HR's dont seem to be as bad, I'd guess that the older "cross-linking" additives to the "natural" rubber, PbS- lead sulfide among them, have been supplanted by better ones and synthetic rubbers. Hi Mark, yes little info re: mp refacing! Had some done by Woodwind Co and Bob Scott in the past, and asked a few ?s. SOOO, when faced with a scratched/chipped CHEAP mp, I TRY to reface it to a reasonably-playable condition, by giving it a few strokes on very fine emery cloth [on a very flat surface!] to #1, level the table, and #2, "clean-up" the rails and tip [without too much broadning] which produces a different "curve" [not always the greatest!!!]. THEN, I polish the surfaces [not glass] on newspaper with a few more strokes. Now you know my secret [garage-mech] method, I'm sure it will be heresy to the pros, maybe it will bring some response as to how they do it [short of employing expensive honing machinery ] . Any comments??? Don
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Author: mw
Date: 2001-07-05 16:06
Gordon, YES we can. I have been working with a local Chemical Engineer who is a client in my accounting practice. We are in the process of developing a Kit which will provide for treatment & removal of the discoloration --- its in the works. Bleach solution (bleach isn't the only "solution" --- other chemicals can do the job, too) will take much off in a short time. You have to be careful that any treatment solution is removed.
Don, I have been working with cleaning up many older mouthpieces. So, yes, I know about the use of very fine sandpaper. Also, spent much time polishing and even experimenting with restoring finish. One of the mouthpiece's I was looking at yesterday was a Selmer HS* that Robert Scott had refaced. Frankly, its stuffy. His barrels are WONDERFUL, though.
Best,
mw
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Author: ron b
Date: 2001-07-05 17:39
MW -
That's the reason I referred to what I use as 'super special secret cleaning solution' - [ bleach ) ] Although I use other chemicals besides bleach, plain ol' laundry bleach is the first step. I won't disclose the other step(s) now, not because I've 'discovered' something unique, (I haven't) rather I don't want to encourage people to fool around with stuff that might be harmful if not handled properly - then claim I *recommended* it :
I've treated horns that it doesn't matter if they get ruined, (I've learned so many things that way - by screwing up :]) So far, I haven't ruined one. But, if it gets to the tried and true, sure fire way of erasing the green I'll gladly share my findings with anyone. Right now, the very short term results are promising but far from 'time tested' - like Gliddon outdoor paint
Even though bleach doesn't seem to get every molecule of green out by itself, it does a pretty fair cleaning job. I might add that I don't know the long term effects, if any, on steel springs. The horns I've used were about ready to have the springs replaced anyway and I removed all other steels before submerging the instrument body. Cork was also removed.
Best wishes with your Kit development. You may be on to something that'll make horn scum cleaning easier for all of us :] We won't have to keep 'fooling around' searching for the secret sauce
- ron b -
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2001-07-05 17:44
I'm sorry, guys, but I just have a hard time getting past the green color in the photo. I can't imagine actually touching the thing!
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Author: Bob Arney
Date: 2001-07-05 21:08
Aw come on Brenda. I "bought" a Conn hard rubber Bass and I love it so much I don't care if it turns as green as Kermit the Frog. If it does, I'll just re-name it Kermit. (Right now it's FRED).
Bob A
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Author: ron b
Date: 2001-07-05 21:57
To anyone interested...
I wrote to Staffco a couple of days ago out of curiosity. I wrote that the mouthpiece certainly is a Selmer. I asked if the instrument itself had any identifying marks like a brand name etc.
Joe's reply:
(Thu July 5)
Ron,
The only identification marks on the clarinet are the matching serial numbers. That's it.
Thanks,
Joe
Anybody wanna take it from there?
- ron b -
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2001-07-06 11:45
mw: Does the bleach actually remove the greened surface material (which in my experience can be quite thick), or does it RESTORE the 'rubber' to a long-lasting black. I'd really appreciate detauils of your treatment if you can email me.
Don: No I don't recall discussing that, but my CPU has dispaced my RAM.
PbS + Cl ions = ??????
And how common is the PbS? Lead! Are we poisoning ouselves by sucking on the older hard rubber mouthpieces?
I thought the hard rubber was natural rubber vulcanized with an overdose of sulphur. But it astonishes me how little I know.
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2001-07-06 16:09
Gordon - I have prob. talked beyond my own knowledge of the green-brown hard rubber chemistry!! I have read-up in chemical dictionaries-encyclopedias {library sets, McGraw-Hill, Kirk-Othmer, etc} and dont remember all, and my chemistry has become somewhat rusty! I have several hard rubber cls and mps, the latest is a 50-60's Linton FB bass cl, as others, D S etc say were made by Malerne [FR] which, on overhaul, the color was removed [will find out how, MW!]. None has returned on its sitting out [indoors] with ambient, not direct, sunlight, filtered by window glass, as I recall, it removes much of the UV and other actinic radiation. A number of chemical elements have distinctive colors in compound form, two , commonly used in HR formulations , as sulfides, are lead [black] and copper [green] so are "suspect". I believe that its removal by bleach etc is just of a very-thin surface coating, as there is no visible degradation [pitting etc] , perhaps it is a chemical reduction reaction of the color back to its original composition. {Can you help us, Doctor LOH??}. Again IMHO! Also, I dont see any poisoning hazard, we discussed it here on back re: glass [lead cmpd added for brilliance] mouthpieces and table crystal as well!! Our saliva is nearly neutral in pH. Have gone on too long, its interesting tho. Don
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Author: mw
Date: 2001-07-06 16:37
Don said:
" .... removal by bleach etc is just of a very-thin surface coating, as there is no visible degradation."
-----------------------------------
Correct.
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Author: John O'Janpa
Date: 2001-07-06 23:55
I'm a chemist, and although I don't know how rubber is (and was) vulcanized, I do know that common bleaches cause oxidation reactions, not reductions. My guess is that uv over time causes a mild surface oxidation of the rubber, and that hitting it with bleach causes a stronger oxidation that actually removes the previously oxidized(discolored)film. What an ugly
instrument!!
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2001-07-07 23:20
You are right, John, after posting the above, I thought about my "reduction" and knew it was wrong. Na hypochlorite with its freed-up O2 sure oxidizes, but we still havent figured it all out, namely, where does the color go?? By solubility?? My bass cl looks as good as new! Prob its enough to see it gone . As of now I have greater problems! Regards, Don
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