 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: ~jerry
Date: 2001-07-04 12:33
In a previous post I described an R13 being autioned with no photos. During the bidding of the listed clarinet I sent the owner, who lives less than two miles from me, a couple of emails to see if I could check out the clarinet personally.
I received an eleventh hour (less than two hours to bid closing) email and subsequent telephone call.The young lady who owns it had her boyfriend post it for her. She reportedly has had the R13 for four years (while in high school). She plans to attend college soon and does not intend to continue her music education.
As the item did not bid up to the reserve (unlisted), she has offered me the opportunity to visit with her and test the R13. The reserve was set at $1400. I'm not sure but this sounds a bit high -- even if it is in top condition (I would assume that it needs new pads and no waranty, etc.).
I would of course have my teacher check it out and have a tech at Brook Mays take a look at it also.
What do you guys think?.........about the price, I mean/
~ jerry
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Author: mw
Date: 2001-07-04 13:03
@ four years the main questions would be condition of :
wood --- cracks, chips, checks & tenon damage. (-500)
pads --- type & last replaced (cork upper, premium fishskin bottoms) (-200)
corks --- tenon & key corks in what condition (-50)
keywork -- is there tarnish/plating loss/wear at contact points or elsewhere? (-125)
tuning --- how well does it tune? (if it don't tune for you, walk away)
barrels, mouthpieces & accessories --- what is included in price by seller? (+100)
case --- what is condition, inside & out? (-50)
IMO, rhe range of value might be anywhere from $600 - $1,500 for Buffet R-13.
Based upon a guess that this horn has not been touched (in any significant way bye a repairman) since purchase, I would guess that am going price would be $800 - $1,100. Tops would be $1,250.
If I were purchasing this horn, I would plan on overhauling right away, unless the horn were very special in its present condition (and if it was it would probably be worth circa $1200).
I would tune myself on this clarinet from bottom-to-top & I would probably recommned bringing a teacher or advanced student along.
Best,
mw
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2001-07-04 15:05
Jerry, why don't you look at the Sneezy classifieds? There are a lot of used R-13s out there that you could get for a good price. If you want a new R-13, you can get one through woodwind and brasswind or take the website price to Brook Mays and they'll match it.
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Author: William
Date: 2001-07-04 15:18
Bottom line should be "how does it play?"--not "how does it look?" I once was shown a clarinet, by a repairperson friend of mine (also a pro-level jazz player), which appeared to be nothing but junk. The keys were worn, it had a large metal band around the top joint (crack repair) and the case was held together with tape. My friend, who was working on my set of R-13s, offered to let me try it and give my "evaluation" of how it played. To make a "long story short," upon playing this old, worn instrument with my own mouthpiece, I found it to be one of those "top drawer" Buffet clarinets that one only rarely finds--perfect intonation, even scale and responce in all registers, and a full resonate sound from top to bottom. I offered to trade my much newer and more well-kept R-13 Bb for this "junker" on the spot, but was told by my friend that it belonged to a "Chicago pro" who would never part with it. He would not reveal the owners name (confidentialithy, I guess) and apologized to me for giving me this ugly-appearing but wonderful clarinet to try, knowing full-well what my reaction would be. Bottom line is, verify the condition of any instrument you are considering to purchase, but don't let appearancies and the absence of a "warrenty" be the sole basis for your decision to purchase. Again, Duke's quotation is best remembered--"If it sounds good, it is good." Buyer, beware, but be aware!!!!!!! Good clarineting!!!!!
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Author: dew
Date: 2001-07-04 16:15
Gosh, jerry, we were going to sell one of our R13s, both with new pads and complete overhauls-both are more vintage, and were playtested by our school's private clarinet teacher. We were asking less for them with our repairman's warranty; your seller seems to be asking a lot.
If you don't mind my asking, why would you take a clarinet to Brook Mays to be mechanically evaluated, rather than John Butler?
Brook Mays does not always, or even routinely, in my experience, match prices. They certainly wouldn't yesterday on a Manhasset music stand. Mars sold the same stand for $34 that Brook Mays wanted $54, list. When I asked the salesman about it, he just shrugged, so I left.
Good luck finding the right horn , jerry ;~)
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2001-07-04 16:43
Jerry,
There is an old rule of thumb for purchasing used musical instruments which goes "Don't pay/expect to receive more than about 50% of new street (read mail-order discount here) price for a used instrument in superb condition and work down from there." Buffets seem to hold their value better than most other brands so perhaps 60% of street price is a more realistic starting point for them. Since new street price for an R13 is in the neighborhood of $1,700 -- $1,800, the "rule of thumb price" would range from $850 to $1080 -- pretty much where mw put it with his detailed analysis.
This is, however, a specific instrument and the seller has offered it twice on eBay. The first time, the high bid was about $850. The last time, however, it was $1,000, which probably puts a lower limit on what you will have to pay. The real question becomes whether you want to pay that much for this clarinet. As MW says, that should depend on how it plays for you. If you have an opportunity to have your teacher and/or a repair tech check it out for mechanical condition, all the better. At the risk of attracting some flames, however, I think that, if you cannot tell for yourself (1) whether the instrument is in good playing condition, and (2) whether or not this is a good instrument for you, you probably aren't ready for a pro instrument (and, when you are ready, you will be able to find a good used one for $1,100 or less).
IMHO, if the instrument is as described in the ad, around $1,100 is probably a fair price for her to expect. Whether it is a good price for you depends on how the instrument plays for you. You may be able to find a better price but remember that there is a cost to searching. On the other hand, also IMHO, $1,400 is above market. A problem you face is that the seller probably doesn't realize this. She indicated in her description that her reserve was a real bargain compared to the instrument's original purchase price. Either she considers $300 -- $400 a real bargain (though that works out to $100 or less annual rental for an R13) or (and I think this is more likely) she/her parents purchased the instrument from a store that charged closer to list and the reserve price is a significant amount (possibly 50% or more) below what they paid. In either case, since she is still in the early stages of selling her instrument, negotiating the price far below her reserve may be a challenge. Be prepared to walk away from this one. Best regards.
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Author: bob gardner
Date: 2001-07-04 18:16
Jerry Happy 4th.
Plan to put anywhere from 100 to 200 into any horn off of ebay. i would put that into the price you are willing to pay. The 100 is a piece of mind price for having the tech. say it is in playing condition.
Get out of boot camp.
Bob
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Author: ~jerry
Date: 2001-07-04 23:11
Thank everyone for the sage advice. I have no qualms about making an offer that I can live with and saying bye otherwise. Half the fun is shopping any way. No, I am not qualified to test play the instrument myself -- and I may never feel qualified (I'm my own worst critic).
However, if I wait too long to be able to test play one, it may be too late to play, period. Right now I feel that I can make a judgement on pads (if they are in real bad shape). I know that the upper section should have cork pads (according to my teacher). I can do a cursory inspection for cracks, but realize that the real test should be performed with a light and a qualified technician. My first evaluation can be only to test play what I've learned so far and see how the instrument "feels" in my hands. Then it's on to my teacher for the tricky stuff.
Thanks again for all the feedback.
~ jerry
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Author: mw
Date: 2001-07-05 00:26
I think if you study the responses above you will find that all $$$ fell within a range, if the clarinet proved otherwise acceptible.
However, what I think is really important, is the attempt to amalyze the psychology & "moneysworth approach" that Sellers often adopt in selling their instruments. Jack Kissinger has done an excellent job of identifying & explaining "where they are coming from" and, more importantly, what it will take to cause such a seller to modify their price (downward).
[[ I have often seen Sellers come back months later after beating their heads against the wall with many Buyers --- all of whom had to sense the same intrinsic problem ]]
Best,
mw
PS --- No flames --- It is easier, IMO, to play a pro instrument as opposed to a student instrument. If one can afford the $$$ of a used or new pro instrument & isn't worried about wasting some $$$ here or there, by all means buy a pro horn. There are as many reasons to wait, as there to proceed.
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Author: Dee
Date: 2001-07-05 00:46
~jerry wrote:
>
> ... I know that
> the upper section should have cork pads (according to my
> teacher).
That is strictly a matter of opinion. Some people like them and some do not. So do not judge it on whether the upper section has cork pads. New horns generally don't come with cork pads so if this one has not needed a repadding yet, it may not have them. That is no reason to downcheck the horn.
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Author: ~jerry
Date: 2001-07-05 01:38
Dee,
Quite understand and have no intention of letting that be thae "straw". I had considered all along that the pads on this particular CL have not been replaced, and that they would need to be if I (or my mentor) deem it necessary.
That's why I have thought, as others have suggested, that $1200 would be about as high as one could go so that there would be a cushion for additional work. Here again, this is contengent on the repair tech's appraisal.
I do understand that it is a matter of oppinion but my teacher's oppinion at this point is all I have to rely on.
Again, thanks for the advice.
~ jerry
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2001-07-05 02:49
If the instrument is new, or almost new, you can usually get by on what the manufacturer provided for a while without going to the cork pads. I always have them put on my personal instruments, but most major brand clarinets like Buffet, Leblanc, Selmer and Yamaha put pretty good pads on their professional line of instruments. For instance, the R-13 I've been play-testing the last week has pretty decent pads. So, if you get one that is only a year old or perhaps even 2 years old, and has had good care--you probably don't need to repad. If it's been subjected to lots of temperature changes and hasn't been properly maintained, you'll probably need to repad just to get a good "seat" on the pads.
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Author: Jim
Date: 2001-07-05 03:56
For me, the reason to buy anything used, is to save $$$. When the difference between new and used is less than 35% or so... The new usually looks like a better buy considering warranty etc.
As I it sounds like you have the resources, go for the pro horn even though you are still beginning. The difference in feel and performance will please you and may inspire more practice and effort!
Good Luck!
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2001-07-05 13:16
I agree with the above reasoning of new vs. used instrument. If you have to spend $150.00 on pads and you pay $1,200.00 for the clarinet, that's $1,350.00. If it needs some adjustment on the key-action and you need more work, that'll be extra. Also, there's no warranty. And, if you can buy a new one that is also sight unseen like the used one from woodwind and brasswind for $1,595.00 and not have to have pads for 2 or 3 years (sometimes more), PLUS have a warranty--I think it makes better sense to get the new one. Not to mention the added feature of pride of ownership when you open that case and smell that new smell. AHHH.
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Author: mw
Date: 2001-07-05 16:08
Brenda, don't forget the cost of shipping (& insurance) trial clarinets back & forth. I find thatg it's usually $200 or more for professional clarinets [e.g. allowing for, say, 4 trials & sending 3 back (hopefully) ]
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Author: mw
Date: 2001-07-05 16:52
Lets take this a step further --- check this horn out: $700 with a reserve that's probably +/- 35% higher. Serial number is probably 1995 or so. Someone can check here on Sneezy. Probably bought in 1996-1997.
http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1444516970
A. Its been dropped on its head (center tenon has a chip)
B. Case looks in good shape. Comes with case cover which is a +.
C. Original pads & corks (I'm guessing) needing replacement -- they allow for "some"
D. Has an upgrade for Mouthpiece & Barrel, but I hate to buy Barrels this way. They never seem to work out. Gigliotti mpc is a + if you like them.
E. Limited feedback, with mostly buying (not as a seller)
F. I get worried about anybody who would ship & insure for $10.00. Insurance alone on a $1,000 is that much. Could be they want to split it. Clarinet will need lots of bubble wrap & cushy newspaper schreddings for support (so that UPS or USPS don't damage it).
I[[ eBay horns like this are a CHANCE ... I think the odds are against this one working out for a reasonable price ]]
Best,
mw
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2001-07-05 17:48
Yes, and I've taken enough risks on used instruments lately to last me a long, long time. But, I've got a couple of new ones sitting in my studio right now waiting for play-testing. I had to pay shipping for them and will have to ship them back if they're not good. PLUS, don't forget the fact that the company keeps this on my credit card for about 3 weeks. I once figured up the interest on that and determined it cost me about $75.00-$85.00 to try a couple of clarinets.
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Author: mw
Date: 2001-07-05 18:42
There are Federal Regulations that deal with the methods that are employed by credit card issuers/bank RE: how interest is charged on your balance & (specifically) how credits are to be applied. Whenever you have a credit pending & a bill "hits" in the interim, simply call the Credit Card Issuer/Bank & explain the particular item that you won't be sending payment for --- as the Credit for returning the item is pending. Works like a charm.
Best,
mw
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