 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: SnazzyJazzy
Date: 2003-08-10 02:57
does anyone know how to flutter tongue? i have tried and tried but i don't see how it is possible if there is a mouthpiece and a reed in my mouth.
~SnazzyJazzy
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Author: BobD
Date: 2003-08-10 13:08
Don't know how to do that or "slap tongue" either......
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Author: krawfish3x
Date: 2003-08-10 13:38
doing a flutter tongue is kind of like rolling your R's in your mouth except without the sound. i do it on the roof of my mouth behind the reed. it takes practice.
ive never heard of "slap tongue". what is this?
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Author: William
Date: 2003-08-10 15:02
"Slap" tongue is an old jazz effect similar which poduces a loud "click" at the start of each note. It is done like when you do a 'click' with your tongue (no instrument). The tongue is on the roof of the mouth and then is quickly drawn backwards and down to produce a click. On the clarinet--more commonly, the saxophone--the whole tongue, not just "the tip" as in normal articulation, is placed on the reed and quickly withdrawn in similar fashion which produces a "thwacky" thuck (click) at the beginning of the sound.
FYI, I've heard local elder jazz players do this, but have not mastered the "art" myself. When I her Larry Combs work it into his 'stuff', then I'll get more serious about it.
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Author: theclarinetist
Date: 2003-08-10 17:25
Fluttering tonguing can be a difficult (especially as you get higher). The key is to keep your tongue back in your mouth so it doesn't hit the mouthpiece, while maintaining a good enough embouchure that the sound/tuning doesn't suffer.
However, I have heard that the ability to roll your tongue is genetic, meaning you either can do it or you can't (I don't know if this is true, but it's what I've heard). If you can't roll your tongue (like a rolled R), then you may have to use a different technique to achieve a flutter-tongue effect. Maybe someone else can suggest alternate techniques for people who can't roll the R....
Don - theclarinetist@yahoo.com
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Author: jez
Date: 2003-08-10 18:37
I can't roll my R's at the front, so I flutter with the back of the tongue against the soft palate, more like an R sound in French. This helps keep things away from the reed.
jez
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Author: clarinetmama
Date: 2003-08-11 04:02
I am convinced the ability to flutter tongue is hereditary. Less than half of the clarinetists I have met know how to do it. I think the rolling of r's is the best advice. Of course, if you can't roll your r's you are out of luck.
Jean
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2003-08-11 07:18
All this talk of flutter tonguing makes me think of Husa's Music for Prague (year?)... specifically, the section where clarinets have about a dozen measures of straight flutter tonguing.
Fun!
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: Mark Pinner
Date: 2003-08-11 13:35
Just to correct a misconception. Slap tongueing was used by legit saxophone players long before jazzers got hold of it. It is a legitimate saxophone technique.
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Author: traysee
Date: 2003-08-14 18:23
When flutter tounging, I can't roll my toungue but I make a gurgling sound in the back of my throat.
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Author: irene
Date: 2003-08-18 20:31
I had a lot of problems with flutter tonguing as well, because I didn't know how it was supposed to feel in my throat. I learned it by a trick. If you try to sing while you're playing you can feel the 'R' in your throat. You won't be able to play a flutter tongue immediately, but at least you know the place where you have to feel it. Perhaps you can try it!
Irene
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Author: MusikFind1
Date: 2020-05-12 00:41
A composer has written fast chromatic scales for Clarinets (and other
woodwinds) marked Flatterzunge. Some scales are shown With staccato dots, other Without. Can a woodwind player make a difference in sound?
Please send your opinions.
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Author: Tom H
Date: 2020-05-12 01:02
krawfish3x explained it well. I never thought about it. Just seemed to come naturally. Practice without the mouthpiece I guess? Maybe it is hereditary?
I like to go up & down scales doing it--lots of fun.
The Most Advanced Clarinet Book--
tomheimer.ampbk.com/ Sheet Music Plus item A0.1001315, Musicnotes product no. MB0000649.
Boreal Ballad for unaccompanied clarinet-Sheet Music Plus item A0.1001314.
Musicnotes product no. MNO287475
Post Edited (2020-05-12 01:03)
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Author: Fuzzy
Date: 2020-05-12 01:18
MusikFind1,
I would be confused if I saw music written as Flutter Tongue, yet with staccato too. Fast scales wouldn't be a problem to flutter tongue, but I don't see how a player could play fast scales in flutter tongue AND staccato at the same time...unless only certain notes had staccato markings.
To me, it would seem (especially on quick notes) that it would be an "either/or" situation. Either flutter tongue, or staccato.
Fuzzy
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Author: kdk
Date: 2020-05-12 03:07
Fuzzy wrote:
> I would be confused if I saw music written as Flutter Tongue,
> yet with staccato too.
FWIW, Stravinsky writes it that way in The Rite of Spring. More than once in Glorification de l'elue. I think other spots, too.
Karl
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Author: Fuzzy
Date: 2020-05-12 03:25
Karl,
Thanks for that information! (My classical exposure is limited to what I did in high school and college, so to say I missed a lot would be an understatement.)
So - how would a person play flutter tongue and staccato on fast notes? What do you think Stravinksy was shooting for? I'll go listen to online examples and see what I can find.
Thanks,
Fuzzy
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Author: kdk
Date: 2020-05-12 04:14
Fuzzy wrote:
> So - how would a person play flutter tongue and staccato on
> fast notes? What do you think Stravinsky was shooting for?
I think the dots just reinforce that the notes are separated (i.e.not slurred/legato). In a practical sense I don't know how you would make a difference in execution between flutter-tongued fast notes with or without dots.
Karl
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Author: ruben
Date: 2020-05-12 09:23
This works! -the gargling, I mean, in the back of the throat. The only trouble is that it's noisy, but the noise doesn't carry. Native speakers of Spanish are better at rolling their r's than native English speakers.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2020-05-12 16:30
I've always use gargling as well, like ruben mentioned , because i can't do it with my tongue. I was taught to gargle as a kid when I had a sore throat and the same technique works fine on the clarinet. It's more difficult in the altissimo register so I have to start the note first and then begin to gargle.
ESP eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: Fuzzy
Date: 2020-05-12 21:55
I'm having difficulty understanding the gargling method...when I gargle, I vocalize. Usually when a person vocalizes in the throat while playing, the effect is called a growl.
Could someone explain the gargling thing in more detail and how it correlates to a flutter tongue effect - I'd like to figure this out.
Thanks,
Fuzzy
Edited for spelling.
Post Edited (2020-05-12 21:56)
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Author: Tom H
Date: 2020-05-12 22:07
I'd like detail too. Gargling seems to use the back of the throat. Flutter tonguing has to do with air blown up between the tongue and roof of the mouth.
The Most Advanced Clarinet Book--
tomheimer.ampbk.com/ Sheet Music Plus item A0.1001315, Musicnotes product no. MB0000649.
Boreal Ballad for unaccompanied clarinet-Sheet Music Plus item A0.1001314.
Musicnotes product no. MNO287475
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Author: ruben
Date: 2020-05-13 12:56
Ed: it's funny that that gargling technique is never taught! I've always gotten away with it-nobody has ever noticed I'm cheating and not using my tongue. In fact, I've been complimented on my flutter-tonguing! It creates a little extraneous noise, but I've learned how to keep it down and the dross doesn't project into the hall. Anyway, we usially only flutter toungue for a few measures (fortunately!).
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: kdk
Date: 2020-05-13 16:51
Fuzzy wrote:
> I'm having difficulty understanding the gargling method...when
> I gargle, I vocalize. Usually when a person vocalizes in the
> throat while playing, the effect is called a growl.
Must be your technique. I normally gargle non-vocally unless I want to entertain anyone who is within earshot. Anyway, I'm not sure that that growling effect is really so far from the effect of flutter tongue.
Karl
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2020-05-13 17:58
I'd love to explain it but i don't know how to put it into words. As i said, i used to do it as a kid when I had a sore throat and my mother gave me salt water or some to gargle and I don't know how I just did it. I've demonstrated it to some people and they usually learn to "copy" the sound of doing it without the clarinet and then learn to apply it. I can't even remember when or how I tried it on the clarinet. It feels like the the back of my throat is bouncing in back, that's the best I can do. Sorry.
ESP eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: Fuzzy
Date: 2020-05-13 18:29
Karl and Ed,
Thanks for the additional info. I'll try to do some experimenting and see what I can come up with. (I can gargle without vocalizing - I just normally vocalize because it seems more effective.)
It is entirely possible that I flutter tongue incorrectly, but I've always thought the effect of a growl and a flutter tongue were very different sounds. That said - we're basically talking about gaspipe effects, so I'm not sure there's a "right" or "wrong" way to do any of it.
I'm curious about the gargle thing because if it does, indeed, mimic a flutter tongue, then it would perhaps free up the tongue to do the stacatto, or other effects...which is an intersting concept to me.
Thanks again,
Fuzzy
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Author: ruben
Date: 2020-05-13 20:12
PS: flutter-tonguing seems more difficult when you play double-lip. I have to switch to single-lip embouchure to do it, or use the gargling technique a couple of us have mentioned.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: Floydinoz
Date: 2020-05-14 04:10
I've always referred to the flutter effect involving the back of the tongue as an uvula flutter. It can stand in for the usual method for anyone who can't roll their Rs. It a matter of lifting the tongue so it makes a narrow passage for the air and causes the uvula to “flutter” and rapidly interrupt the tone
Floyd
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Author: Tom H
Date: 2020-05-14 04:52
I can see that. Glad I can do it the "normal" way since I think they did something to my uvula on that snoring operation.....
The Most Advanced Clarinet Book--
tomheimer.ampbk.com/ Sheet Music Plus item A0.1001315, Musicnotes product no. MB0000649.
Boreal Ballad for unaccompanied clarinet-Sheet Music Plus item A0.1001314.
Musicnotes product no. MNO287475
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Author: Fuzzy
Date: 2020-05-14 08:08
Yep - tested it out today. For me the effect is sort of a pseudo flutter tongue...but I'm sure with practice it would shape up. However, since it comes more natural to do the normal flutter tongue, and since my throat felt a little worse for wear after trying this - I'll probably just stick with the normal flutter tongue.
Still, very interesting to know there's another way to do it!
Thanks again,
Fuzzy
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