 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: JohnP
Date: 2020-05-10 17:07
Here’s something to get your blood boiling, fellow clarinettists!
https://slippedisc.com/2020/05/the-slipped-disc-daily-comfort-zone-55-viola-trumps-clarinet/
John
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Author: Klose ★2017
Date: 2020-05-10 18:08
Definitely no! It is very unfortunate and even tragic to violists that for their almost ‘only’ repertoire, Brahms clearly said: ‘as viola sonatas, the two pieces are very awkward and unpleasant.’
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Author: Philip Caron
Date: 2020-05-10 18:14
The viola versions can be well enjoyed, but it's almost like hearing different music altogether.
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Author: ruben
Date: 2020-05-10 18:31
Klose: Yet Brahms must have heard them played by Joachim. I have also read that old Brahms was not pleased with the Viola version. It was in an in-depth article in the Strad years ago.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: ruben
Date: 2020-05-10 18:39
John: the notorious Mr. Lebrecht has struck again!
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: DaphnisetChloe
Date: 2020-05-11 10:00
It's one of the better viola recordings. I still can't stand the way most viola players lather vibrato on in the Brahms Sonatas like ketchup. Vibrato shouldn't be a substitute for other forms of expression.
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Author: ruben
Date: 2020-05-11 14:21
Daphnis: I agree with you, but some clarinetists play the Brahms Sonatas with vibrato; namely the older English generation: Kell, Brymer, de Peyer. John Denmann. Did this style catch on in Australia-if you are who I think you are? I should think Australian clarinetists were originally influenced by the British. Here in France, the wonderful Pascal Moragués uses a stylish "unketchupy" vibrato when playing Brahms, as does/ did Michel Portal.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: DaphnisetChloe
Date: 2020-05-11 15:09
Hi Ruben, I think some vibrato is fine - Kell, Brymer and de Peyer for the most part did it very artistically (maybe de Peyer less so). The recording Lebrecht posted on his blog seems to have an incredibly wide and intense vibrato for large chunks of the piece which I can't stand. We can now find remastered recordings of Joachim playing a few of Brahms' compositions on YouTube and I find it very interesting how little vibrato he used compared to the hyper expressive style of violin playing epitomized by Zukerman, Menuhin, etc. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f-p8YeIQkxs
Of course this is just my view of the work and I'm still a student, so everyone who reads, feel free to take it with a grain of salt, but I think vibrato should be a light frosting on the performance, not a thick chocolate sludge
James Julian
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Author: JohnP
Date: 2020-05-11 16:47
Mühlfeld is supposed to have used vibrato, as documented in this well know story from Jack Brymer’s book
"Just before World War II a question was put to a very old viola player, sometime conductor of the Duke of Devonshire's Orchestra, about the playing of Muhlfeld. The old man had occasionally been called by Joachim to play in his quartet, and on several occasions had played the Brahms Quintet with the great Muhlfeld. Of the clarinetist's playing he was most enthusiastic, saying that three things mainly stuck in his memory. 'He used two clarinets, A and Bb, for the slow movement, to simplify the gypsy section; he had a fiery technique with a warm tone -- and a big vibrato.' Asked again by a startled questioner if he didn't mean to say 'rubato' the old man looked puzzled. 'No' he said, 'vibrato -- much more than Joachim, and as much as the cellist."
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Author: MichaelW
Date: 2020-05-11 16:54
But compare this version (sorry, 1st movement only) by contemporary violist Tabea Zimmermann to Pinchas Zukerman:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3O9v7k7Emqo&pbjreload=10
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Author: Ed
Date: 2020-05-11 17:26
Don't make me start with the viola jokes!
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2020-05-11 18:12
I've written elsewhere on this BBoard about how I agree with Brahms's own assessment of the viola versions of op120.
To those of you who 'like' the viola versions, I can only say that I think you have an impoverished view of what the pieces are about – what they're trying to do.
Clarinet and viola aren't interchangeable in that context. Brahms came to realise the full potential of the clarinet only when he met, heard and worked with Mühlfeld. He could have written viola sonatas at any previous time – but didn't.
If you can't hear this when you compare the best performances you can find on both instruments; well then...
...I was going to say, I feel sorry for you.
But, on reflection, I don't:-)
Tony
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Author: ruben
Date: 2020-05-11 18:33
Tony; The violist, Yuri Bashmet, played the Brahms Clarinet Quintet here in Paris with his viola replacing the clarinet and proclaimed it far superior to the original version: more expressive he said. How could he so disgracefully miss the whole point of the work? ps: it's good to see you posting. I have a clarinet that looks very much like the one Mühlfed played and I would be happy to lend it.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2020-05-13 18:02
The only good thing about hearing the viola version is that you never hear water getting caught in one of the side keys.
ESP eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: Philip Caron
Date: 2020-05-13 19:46
I recall as a written comment from a non-professional saying the viola versions are better because the viola is a superior instrument to the clarinet, with agreement from several respondents. That gave me a laugh, and recalled a conversation I once had with a guitar player who assured me that, unlike the guitar, the clarinet has nothing going for it music-wise - he listed the great things he recognized in the guitar, and found nothing the clarinet could do "better". I didn't bother arguing.
Transcriptions of great music are common, often made by parties other than the composer, and I've gotten much enjoyment from listening to them. It's good to know what the composer thought in helping one to produce an effective performance, but it's by not at all rare for effectiveness to appear in other guises, or on other instruments; in fact, you hear it all the time. What the composer thought is not paramount.
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2020-05-13 21:17
You notice that I said I agreed with Brahms's assessment.
I didn't say that what Brahms thought is paramount.
Tony
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2020-05-15 18:33
I should have thanked Ruben for his contribution and offer. Thank you, Ruben.
I have Ottensteiner copies from S&S, and indeed recorded the quintet with Hausmusik on an actual Ottensteiner from Nick Shackleton's collection. (That recording never came out because the recording company folded, but I could probably resuscitate it with a bit of private funding.)
Those days are gone, thanks to the disgraceful behaviour of the Musical Instrument Collection of the University of Edinburgh, who, going directly against Nick's wishes, have effectively refused to allow professional performance on his instrumental bequest to them.
There is even in that collection a clarinet by Hérouard et Fils that I gifted to Nick, on which I had previously recorded the Schubert Octet.
I now no longer have access to that instrument.
Yurij Bashmet – whilst a stunning instrumentalist and in my experience a very nice if idiosyncratic person – can be unreliable in matters of taste. I heard a performance in Siena of Mozart K364 with him and the wonderful violinist Boris Belkin in which he totally destroyed the piece by playing poor Boris off the stage, stylistically.
I also heard, in another year, his Brahms 'viola' quintet, and in the same concert, his 'version' of the Brahms horn trio. I found it a useful object lesson for my clarinet class in how NOT to play Op115. The horn trio was of course unrecognisable.
Tony
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2020-05-15 19:09
Damn- a recording of Antony Pay playing the Brahms Quintet on an Ottensteiner copy exists and we can't get to hear it? This situation has to change!
Tony- do you have a master of the recording, or is that still with the (folded) record company? It's pretty easy to get recordings up onto things like iTunes these days, without actually having to print CDs.
I think we need to do a crowd funding to get this recording out there!
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Author: ruben
Date: 2020-05-15 21:08
liquorice: "crowd funding to get this recording out" I agree and would be willing to participate. If my clarinet didn't actually belong to Mülfeld, I'm out 130 eoros! ha ha.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2020-05-15 22:31
There we go- we already have two participants. Tony: how much private funding do you need?
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2020-05-16 01:38
I'm sorry for giving the wrong impression. I don't need financial support – I could pay myself.
The 'private' funding I spoke of was just referring to the fact that the material is still unedited, so I (and possibly the other players) would have to find the session notes and the producer, and then nurse the project along outside what would have been the shelter of the organisation.
Perhaps I'll do that. (It all occurred around 20 years ago.)
The sessions were a bit problematic for a number of reasons, one of which was that the period Ottensteiner started to leak just before our session on the slow movement, and I was having to deal with that as well as trying to control the musical flow. So it's not entirely clear that we would be happy with the whole recording.
I have the takes on my computer, and they sound OK; but until I hear it put together...
Philip Caron: I listened to Bashmet's video. I think he does OK with this particular bit, which is pretty much solo plus accompaniment. It's the more integrated, contrapuntal passages that I took exception to in Siena.
Tony
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Author: gwie
Date: 2020-05-16 03:20
As someone who plays clarinet and viola, I've enjoyed them on both. They end up being very different works, but each instrument brings different expressive options to the table.
We should note that there's plenty of violin repertoire out there that gets repurposed for the clarinet, and the effect is sometimes comical...but I still think it is worth the experience, especially in getting to play repertoire by composers who didn't write for the instrument. When I had more clarinet students (before conducting and arranging/orchestration ate up my whole schedule) I would always give them selected movements of the Six Sonatas and Partitas for Violin and the Six Suites for Cello by J.S. Bach.
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Author: donald
Date: 2020-05-16 03:57
Many transcriptions are worth the time learning as they can be educational, and there is usually at least one place that really works well and can be very satisfying to perform.
As concert repertoire, I find transcriptions less effective (and I've spent hours in the past transcribing works- including turning the E flat major clarinet quartet based on the Mozart K380 back into a sonata, utilising the additions and changes from the Quartet arrangement). All of them provide an opportunity to learn, and yet most of them have some shortcoming that becomes very apparent when you stand up in front of a room of people. There are certainly exceptions to this...
Brahms on Viola? I recall listening to many recordings of this to prepare for some performances in 2002, and hearing in the Viola performances some moments I'd wish to replicate and that the Viola had some strengths I could seek to emulate on clarinet. I never found myself thinking "I wish I could play this on the Viola" or "hey the Viola is better than the clarinet" or even "this sounds nearly as good on the Viola as it does on clarinet".
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Author: sal
Date: 2020-06-01 05:45
Walter Trampler playing 120- Hands down my favorite recording, and that includes clarinet recordings.
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The Clarinet Pages
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