 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: ruben
Date: 2020-04-26 12:52
Here in France, confinement ends on May 11th, with many restrictions. Do you see anything wrong with playing in a group of three (woodwind trio or piano plus two) if we keep the the prescribed distance? The prescribed distance is a meter, but given that there is quite a bit of huffing and puffing and sputtering when you play a wind instrument, I would double that distance: not ideal for playing chamber music, but better than nothing. As for orchestral playing, that's out anyway, at least until the fall. Is there a doctor in the house: a doctor among our readership?
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: Ed
Date: 2020-04-26 16:33
I have been wondering about the same things. Because this virus is highly transmissible and and is airborne, I am concerned about the safety and risks of playing in wind groups or teaching band rehearsals. I have not found any information. so far.
I did see an article regarding a case that seems to have been spread in a choral rehearsal.
https://www.latimes.com/world-nation/story/2020-03-29/coronavirus-choir-outbreak
It seems that at least for a time this would be a risk.
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Author: ruben
Date: 2020-04-26 19:13
Ed: Were we to play, we would have to limit the number of players to three. And then figure out how far away to sit from each other in order to be out of harm's way. A meter doesn't seem enough to me. I envy string players that can play with a mask on.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2020-04-27 04:57
I'm just gonna wait. Hopefully a vaccine will come out relatively soon, not in years, but by the fall season. The news media has had a field day with this. The death rate is about 4 percent here is Los Angeles. This is horrible. But 30 to 40 percent of these very sad deaths are from nursing homes. I'm not sure if it's 30 or 40 percent, because the media isn't publishing the FACTS. They just enjoy scaring the people. I don't understand...
But it's not 4 percent! There's 8 million people in the Los Angeles area, so that means 320,000 people have passed on. Well, needless to say we are at less than .1 percent. Much more people died with last years flu.
In China the population is 1.4 billion people. So if there is a 5 percent death rate there this means 75 million people sadly died? I have no idea if this is possible.
Anyway, all of my concerts have been cancelled and I'm wondering about the ClarinetFest in Reno. Will they have it? Will I go? Don't know. I surely want to attend...
Very frustrated. The media has to give hope, not scare the world, already the media is talking about a summer, fall, and winter wave coming! So it's just starting. The media should be covering the latest with treatments, new drugs, the vaccines, and Hope!
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
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Author: m1964
Date: 2020-04-27 05:24
Ruben wrote:
"... Were we to play, we would have to limit the number of players to three. And then figure out how far away to sit from each other in order to be out of harm's way. A meter doesn't seem enough to me. I envy string players that can play with a mask on."
My doctor told me to stay away from bicycle riders and runners, esp. those who don't have a mask on.
She said there was a study in the Netherlands that found that the virus can travel increased distance in the air due to forceful exhalation by those athletes.
The good news is that you would have little chance to get the virus from piano and string players who wear masks. They, on the other hand, would be in increased danger.
I guess playing while wearing rubber gloves would be difficult😀
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Author: ruben
Date: 2020-04-27 09:33
Bob: the ClarinetFest in Reno is off this summer. Just like all other big gatherings that were to be held. Take care.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: rmk54
Date: 2020-04-27 17:34
Hopefully a vaccine will come out relatively soon, not in years, but by the fall season.
--------------------------------------------------
Don't hold your breath (sorry, bad pun). They've been unsuccessfully trying to make a vaccine for HIV for 32 years now.
Back to the OP's point: If you have access to the Berlin Phil's Digital Concert hall there is a concert (I think it's Easter Festival #4) which includes recent performances of the Beethoven Clarinet and Bassoon Duo #3 and the Trio for 2 Oboes and English Horn. They were recorded in an empty hall with the players quite far apart from each other.
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Author: MichaelW
Date: 2020-04-27 18:56
Aside from political propaganda almost everybody sees mass vaccination at best possible early in 2021.
As you know corona death rate statistics mainly depend on rate of testing and population tested: when you only test people at high risk or with symptoms you'll of course find a very much higher corona related death rate than is to be expected amongst Corona positive people in general population (and of course amongst an entire unselected population). This question will only be answered if and when sufficient mass testing is available.
High speed film studies on masks:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=piCWFgwysu0&pbjreload=10
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ng2sWK3WIMQ&pbjreload=10
Post Edited (2020-04-27 19:06)
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2020-04-27 20:13
Thank you Ruben for the Reno/ClarinetFest. That is bad news! Wish it was still gonna take place.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
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Author: ruben
Date: 2020-04-27 20:50
dear RMK: HIV is a retrovirus contrary to COVID 19, which is a virus. A retrovirus is, I have been told, a more complex structure.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
Post Edited (2020-04-27 20:58)
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Author: Tom H
Date: 2020-04-27 21:39
I don't play in small groups (anymore), and assume no way my summer band concert series (in NY no less) will occur (the NS border as well as Can.-US one aren't even open yet). If I did play in small ensembles I think I'd wait to rehearse at least until a vaccine comes out.
I find it interesting with some states (and now some provinces here) "opening up" and people all along talking about some sort of better situation like by Summer or Fall, without as much distancing. It all seems the same to me until there is a vaccine. If we stay apart, it doesn't spread anywhere as much. Then again, there is the risk of even deaths due to depression with the contracted economies.
The Most Advanced Clarinet Book--
tomheimer.ampbk.com/ Sheet Music Plus item A0.1001315, Musicnotes product no. MB0000649.
Boreal Ballad for unaccompanied clarinet-Sheet Music Plus item A0.1001314.
Musicnotes product no. MNO287475
Post Edited (2020-04-27 21:40)
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2020-04-27 22:18
Tom H wrote:
> I don't play I think I'd wait to rehearse at least
> until a vaccine comes out
Then expect to wait 12-18 months at a minimum. That's how long tests take on a vaccine that works ... and Covid-19 may not act the way that other viral infections act. In that case it's going to be years.
Medicines that help with clearing the viral load hopefully come out sooner. That mean you get it, you get treatment right away. Maybe multiple times because you could catch it multiple times. Lots of personal testing. For the foreseeable future, until a working vaccine is created, tested and distributed. The infection curve might trend to R0 being .3 or so, and that would be very manageable.
Perhaps a miracle will occur but less than 12 months on a vaccine means some testing steps have been skipped.
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Author: Tom H
Date: 2020-04-28 00:33
I'm not educated in vaccine matters as are you, but logically your points make sense. I only play for 7 weeks each summer anyway, then 10 months of just practicing, so I'm used to it, but I guess it may be 22 months this time (if that...).
At ant rate, If I played during winter, etc. I would wait a pretty long time before resuming with other people--despite that it may be OK with geniuses like the Georgia Gov.....
The Most Advanced Clarinet Book--
tomheimer.ampbk.com/ Sheet Music Plus item A0.1001315, Musicnotes product no. MB0000649.
Boreal Ballad for unaccompanied clarinet-Sheet Music Plus item A0.1001314.
Musicnotes product no. MNO287475
Post Edited (2020-04-28 00:35)
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Author: Ed
Date: 2020-04-28 02:47
Whenever a vaccine is created it will still take time for it to be produced and distributed. I know it is often a wait until they are available.
Until that time it still makes me wonder about the safety of playing/teaching in a room full of wind players.
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Author: John G.
Date: 2020-04-28 22:50
I worry more about driving 60+ miles an hour on a two-way road but hey, I guess that's just me.
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Author: Tom H
Date: 2020-04-29 01:19
I worry about all sorts of things when driving in today's world, but that's something most people have to do. Unless it is your sole occupation, you don't have to rehearse with others.
On the SCUBA forum there is always a discussion about how much more likely you will die from:
--driving
--dog bites
--falling coconuts
than from a shark attack.
Yet, unlike many, I don't seek to dive around sharks for the fun of it.
The Most Advanced Clarinet Book--
tomheimer.ampbk.com/ Sheet Music Plus item A0.1001315, Musicnotes product no. MB0000649.
Boreal Ballad for unaccompanied clarinet-Sheet Music Plus item A0.1001314.
Musicnotes product no. MNO287475
Post Edited (2020-04-29 01:20)
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Author: donald
Date: 2020-04-29 01:44
A former student's parent is high at Govt level here in NZ as a communicable disease specialist, and my dad was actually was also (admittedly he retired 15 years ago, but was part of the response to HIV in the 1980s). Both of them more or less concur with Mark Charette's post - anything that comes out "too soon" (ie in the next few months) might even end up causing more problems than it solves.
I'm considering rehearsals with a pianist, but I'm not sure I want to put her at any risk- we pretty much have things under control in this country, but it's the transmission at the asymptomatic stage that is risky.
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Author: Ed
Date: 2020-04-29 03:00
Quote:
I worry more about driving 60+ miles an hour on a two-way road but hey, I guess that's just me.
Yes, I realize that there are risks around us all the time, but there are certainly many concerns about the current situation that are unique.
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Author: Djudy
Date: 2020-04-29 16:04
I would rather play the clarinet (or my guitar) later than the harp sooner !!
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Author: rmk54
Date: 2020-04-29 17:03
Berlin Phil is performing a live concert this Friday, but in an empty hall.
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Author: ruben
Date: 2020-04-29 18:09
Still no medical doctor giving his informed opinion on this topic. I hope we get one. There must be a doctor in the house: many are keen amateur musicians.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: Tom H
Date: 2020-04-29 21:58
How can the Berlin Phil rehearse and play and still socially distance?
The Most Advanced Clarinet Book--
tomheimer.ampbk.com/ Sheet Music Plus item A0.1001315, Musicnotes product no. MB0000649.
Boreal Ballad for unaccompanied clarinet-Sheet Music Plus item A0.1001314.
Musicnotes product no. MNO287475
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Author: rmk54
Date: 2020-04-29 23:29
How can the Berlin Phil rehearse and play and still socially distance?
------------------------------------------
I suppose you will need to tune in Friday to find out. Apparently this is a chamber orchestra performance.
https://www.digitalconcerthall.com/en/news
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Author: clarhorn ★2017
Date: 2020-04-30 01:33
Greetings to all,
There are many unknowns about Covid-19 means of transmission and infectiousness. Most reports now are anecdotal observations and not based on the gold standard of randomized clinical trials. Such trials can not be done on people but will depend upon models. The best we can do in the near term may be determined with observational studies between large groups with the fewest differences in the factors affecting infection.
Temperature, humidity and air circulation are environmental factors that effect how far aerosolized particles might travel. The amount of infectious virus dispersed over time by the source and the means of intake and susceptibility of the recipient are factors that are not constant in real life. A "good" mask, handwashing and social distancing are the best ways now to limit our receiving or spreading Covid-19.
Observations have indicated the greatest risk of spread is person to person by particles being dispersed from one persons respiratory system and entering another through the mucous membranes of the mouth, nose, windpipe, lungs and eyes. One can spread the infection to others before becoming symptomatic. Large testing studies are needed to determine when and for how long someone is infectious. Only when we know who is or is not infected can we know the risk being taken with contact.
An individual has to assess what risk they are willing to take to not only keep from getting infected but how willing are they to risk infecting someone more susceptible to major illness if not death. If you are in your 50's you might feel more comfortable playing with two people in their 30's but not older than 70. Sitting 6-10 feet away in an open area with non-recirculation of dry clean air could be safer than playing outside down wind 30 feet away from someone who is infected. In a group what is the risk of someone being infected?
I can not give you the answer you want because nobody knows yet. Am I a risk to you or are you a risk to me? The risk is the same if nobody is infectious but differs for each if infection is present. Could I get infected because a non-player coughed half an hour ago on the music we are playing and I get contaminated handling the music before put my reed on my mouthpiece? Sorry for too long a post for no information or assurance.
It will be safer when we have accessible testing, treatment or vaccine for Covid-19. Today prevention through public health measures is the only way to be safe. Stay safe by washing your hands, wearing a mask when going out and practicing distancing as best you can.
Roger
MD in medical oncology not infectious disease
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2020-04-30 02:40
beautifully written
and thank you for your service to the community
...............Paul Aviles
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Author: ruben
Date: 2020-04-30 13:10
Dear Dr. Roger, Thank you for posting. Ultimately, it doesn't sound like a good idea for wind players to play chamber music together at the present time. We're blowing into the instrument, not into another person's face, but air comes out of the tone-holes and we gulp in a considerable amount of air when we breathe in fast. Would that I played the violin and could wear a mask!
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2020-05-01 14:55
Just watched the live stream of the Berlin Philharmonic in the empty Philharmonie. Even with the social distancing amongst the small chamber group (and perhaps in part due to the distance between players in an empty hall) the concert was sublime. The Arvo Part "Fratres" and the Barber "Adagio for Strings" were most compelling though the chamber orchestra version of Mahler's 4th was amazing (great work by Wenzel Fuchs!).
Bravo Berliners!!!!!!
..............Paul Aviles
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Author: Tom H
Date: 2020-05-02 01:31
Oh, OK--a small distanced chamber orchestra. I thought you meant the entire orchestra and was puzzled.
The Most Advanced Clarinet Book--
tomheimer.ampbk.com/ Sheet Music Plus item A0.1001315, Musicnotes product no. MB0000649.
Boreal Ballad for unaccompanied clarinet-Sheet Music Plus item A0.1001314.
Musicnotes product no. MNO287475
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2020-05-02 03:05
The first few pieces were just strings (seemingly at least eight feet apart). The Maher 4th is a "salon" adaptation: two vl, (1)va, (1)cello, (1)bass, two grand pianos, a self contained mini organ (not sure what to call it....it had a row of physical stops like a full organ), (1) electric piano (for harp sounds and other various fillers), several percussionists and three wind players (flute, clarinet, oboe/english horn). The three wind players were at least ten feet behind the strings and about fifteen feet apart from each other.
Each piece ended in complete silence with the members standing to take a bow. It was odd and yet strangely compelling.
I believe this is free to everyone!
Google Digital Concert Hall.
.................Paul Aviles
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Author: ruben
Date: 2020-05-02 12:43
Dear Paul, Seeing as the Germans don't take any chances when it comes to hygiene and sanitation -that's probably the principal reasom why the have such a low COVID 19 rate-, it should be alright to play together provided one respects the distances you witnessed on the Berlin Philharmonic concert video. If you place your hand over the open toneholes of a clarinet, there seems to be less air coming out than out of one's mouth when one speaks. I've tried comparing the two. The only trouble is that we gulp a lot air in fast, so it would be advisable to extend the prescribed one-meter distancing to maybe two. PS and off the subject: I've heard that arrangement of Mahler's 4th for Salon orchestra: great and I would love to play it someday! There exists another arrangement for "Songs of a Wayfarer".
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2020-05-02 14:00
Hi,
I'm not sure if it helps any, but we've got practical experience here of how the virus spreads, and about trying to contain it. My husband got it first and we tried really really hard to contain it by quarantining him in one room and bleaching everything, in sight. I even wore a mask any time I nipped into the room to visit.
It made no earthly difference though and I got the virus 5 days after he did, and now my son has it. The message I get from this is that if someone in your group has it, then you are all probably going to get it, no matter how hard you try.
I do wonder about this idea that's being suggested of forming social bubbles though.
For example if three of you live close by each other, and have been living in really tight social isolation for two months, perhaps you could safely form one isolation group together? If you have been clearly symptom-free, it might make sense for your three families to agree to become a single isolation unit, visiting only each other, and no one else.
If you did that, and still went out nowhere else, and got your shopping delivered, then theoretically there would be a low risk of any of you bringing the virus in, and you could go back to playing music as a threesome.
This would only work for retired people with no children in the house who were practising really tight social isolation, but for people in such a situation, I can imagine having some friends to play music with could really be a nice thing.
Jen
(I'm a biomedical research scientist rather than a medic, and I may be talking a lot of rubbish. Honestly, who knows what's going to happen tomorrow, let alone this summer...)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2020-05-02 15:20
Dear Jen,
I'm sure we are all sorry to hear that your family is going through the onslaught of this pandemic. I hope it remains only a minor and temporary health issue.
So are you continuing to practice clarinet through this episode, or have you decided to take a break until it has passed?
................Paul Aviles
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2020-05-02 16:10
SunnyDaze wrote:
> I'm not sure if it helps any, but we've got practical
> experience here of how the virus spreads, and about trying to
> contain it. My husband got it first and we tried really really
> hard to contain it by quarantining him in one room and
> bleaching everything, in sight. I even wore a mask any time I
> nipped into the room to visit.
>
> It made no earthly difference though and I got the virus 5 days
> after he did, and now my son has it. The message I get from
> this is that if someone in your group has it, then you are all
> probably going to get it, no matter how hard you try.
>
Probably because you were exposed to it before your husband became symptomatic. You and he may even have been exposed at the same time, and it took you longer to show symptoms. Meanwhile, if your son wasn't also exposed when you were, he was exposed soon after, while you were still asymptomatic and not separating from him. It isn't that distancing didn't help. It was just too late.
Rather famously, Chris Cuomo, the CNN anchor, apparently had the same experience - first he got sick, then his wife and later his son.
How are all of you right now?
Karl
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2020-05-02 22:52
Hi Paul and Karl,
Thanks so much for asking. Yes it is a bind to have the virus (we assume that's what it is, though we weren't tested).
I can't play my clarinet with this virus unfortunately, and I really miss it. My main symptom is this thing that they call "fatigue" and I don't have the oomph to stand up, or blow hard enough to get a note out of the clarinet. I figure if I feel tired then I should rest though, and presumably that's how I will get better, so I am just doing that. I did have a virus like this once before and although it hung around for a long time, it did eventually go away.
My husband was only flat out like this for 5 days, and my son has basically never stopped bouncing right through it. My son was helpfully demonstrating vibrato on the French horn to me yesterday in spite of having an impressive cough. He doesn't watch the news, so thinks nothing of the cough at all.
I must say it's lovely to be able to come to this forum full of gentle conversation and kindness while I'm recovering. It's a world away from all of the frazzle in the news.
Jen x
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2020-05-03 00:31
Glad to hear you all are doing well with corona.
The "news" is NOT a good place to hang out though I am addicted.
As a biomedical research scientist, would you say it is not worth worrying about virus surviving for very long upon inert surfaces such as reeds, mouthpieces and the like?
................Paul Aviles
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2020-05-03 11:15
Hi Paul,
I agree that the news is a bit heavy on the nervous system right now.
I'm choosing my news sources very carefully, which really helps. :-)
I have thought about the question of reeds and things very carefully
over the last 5 weeks, while I've been waiting to get back to my
clarinet, and a few things have become clearer to me in that time.
I suppose the question is most pressing for clarinet technicians,
since they have to blow into lots of instruments, belonging to lots of
people. They need to be very careful, but their work is time-sensitive, and the clarinets are hard to wash. As far as I can see, it is those people who are on the sharp end of this right now.
I've been thinking about how to deal with that, and here is what I've managed to figure out so far:
Clarinet technicians, as far as I'm concerned, are worth their weight
in gold and should be carefully looked after. So if we are handing
them an instrument to be worked on, we need to assume every time that
we clarinet owners are infectious, and that they are in an at-risk
group, and take appropriate steps. That's the only sensible way to
proceed. Presumably we do still need to send them instruments though,
after the lockdown, or else they would not be able to earn money.
So I suppose the question is - what do I (a potentially infectious
person) need to do to my clarinet to make it safe when it arrives in
the hands (or mouth) of an at-risk person?
It seems as though the things that kill this virus are time, and soapy
water. It doesn't make sense for me to only wash the mp before
drop-off, because I'm only going to cover it in bugs again. It doesn't
make sense for the tech to only wash it because then (s)he will get
covered in bugs while washing it.
That leaves time. That means that they would need to quarantine the
instrument for some time to make it safe after it arrives in the shop.
I don't think I would trust the 3 day rule on this. If it was me on
the receiving end I'd want a fortnight, though I understand that I
might not get it. Maybe 6 days? Nobody really knows the answer to that
I don't think, though the data is getting better. There are some good articles around like this one:
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/apr/04/how-long-does-coronavirus-live-on-different-surfaces
and this original research paper:
https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMc2004973
(This one says that viable virus particles are still found on plastic after 72 hours.)
I suppose the technician just needs to negotiate a quarantine period that they are happy with, and that the customer will accommodate.
Anyway, after the quarantine period, I'd be washing the mp really carefully, and paying special attention to any bits that have limescale build-up that might have virus particles stuck in them. Perhaps the customer might be kind enough to descale the mp before dropping it off? I understand that coronaviruses are a type that are particularly easy to destroy with soapy water, but again I'm not sure how we tell when we have got the mp really clean.
There is a bit more data on what can be used to kill the virus on
surfaces. This table is for sterilising 3D printed items, but mps
might be fairly similar maybe? (not sure). I think this is for viruses generally, rather than coronaviruses specifically, so maybe we need to be careful about that. Also I reckon this is something that the technicians have probably thought about quite a lot before.
https://twitter.com/jimhaseloff/status/1248691760458534915/photo/1
The business of dropping-off instruments at the shop would presumably be done in the same way
as grocery deliveries are currently done, where the person rings the
doorbell and lays down the instrument and then stands well back while
the tech picks it up, puts it in its quarantine location, and then
washes their hands.
It's all a massive faff and means that things would take a lot of
time, but if it means we keep the techs safe and in business, then I
think it would be very much worth it.
I suppose the alternative is that they all start running online teaching courses to teach us how to fix our own clarinets, which could be good too, and more hygienic. If Kalmen Opperman was still here, would he be running his own Youtube channel by now? I don't know. :-)
I imagine that a similar lot of shenanigans would be required if a person
wanted to test a new clarinet that they are considering buying, which
could get very slow indeed if they want to test five or six.
I suppose the hope really is that all this social distancing will bring the prevalence of the virus in the population down to such a low level that tracking contacts of infected individuals will become a viable option quite soon, and then all of this will stop being necessary. For that to happen, we all need to work really hard at our social distancing, but we are, so that's good.
Is that the sort of thing that you had in mind? I think that putting reeds in the bin where there is any doubt is probably a good idea. I have binned mine.
Jen
Disclaimer: This is my best understanding of it, but please if anyone is reading this - do think carefully, read the current best practice, which is changing on a daily basis, and make your own decisions. I'm reading round online and trying my best to figure this out, but I may be wrong and better knowledge may come along tomorrow to change all this entirely. Thanks!
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2020-05-03 15:49
Thank you Jen for your very thoughtful reply. We all need to find our comfort level with what to do about this using the best and latest information available.
Thanks again!
...................Paul Aviles
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Author: ruben
Date: 2020-05-09 12:44
There is an article in the Classical music Sipped Disc Blog in which a couple of German professors report, after having conducted experiments, on the projection of droplets caused by singing and playing a wind instrument. This seems to be the most thorough study yet to appear. It's on Slipped Disc May 8th or at the top of my Facebook page: Ruben Greenberg Facebook Profile. It's worth looking into.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2020-05-10 11:29
This is really interesting too, if you are trying to work out how to socialise as a group post-lockdown. It shows an example of how covid moved through a choir.
https://www.erinbromage.com/post/the-risks-know-them-avoid-them
It seems to me as though outdoor music may be about to become a big new thing.
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Author: m1964
Date: 2020-05-10 18:35
SunnyDaze wrote:
> This is really interesting too, if you are trying to work out
> how to socialise as a group post-lockdown. It shows an example
> of how covid moved through a choir.
>
> https://www.erinbromage.com/post/the-risks-know-them-avoid-them
>
> It seems to me as though outdoor music may be about to become a
> big new thing.
Hi,
Thanks a lot for the link to a very nice article by Dr. Bromage.
In your case, you should be feeling a little better one week after your condition stabilized, and much better 2-3 weeks after. The fatigue and difficulty breathing will SLOWLY improve. In fact, playing the clarinet may have helped you not to develop more severe symptoms.
In New York, there was data suggesting that even people who isoloated themselves in home got sick with the virus. The data was not 100% confirmed because there was suspicion that the responders did not answer the questions about isolation truthfully.
It looks like, however, that it should be safe for people who have antibodies, to be in contact with other people who developed antibodies.
So if all of the players of an ensemble got antibodies to the virus, there is no need to be far apart when rehearsing.
The question is how soon everyone can get tested for antibodies...and those without them would have to be carefull still.
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2020-05-10 22:26
Hi ml964,
Thanks, yes I seem to be on the mend now. I think I had something like this guy's version of it:
https://blogs.bmj.com/bmj/2020/05/05/paul-garner-people-who-have-a-more-protracted-illness-need-help-to-understand-and-cope-with-the-constantly-shifting-bizarre-symptoms/
but I'm past the 6 week mark and starting to feel better now, which is such a relief.
I really do think that my clarinet playing helped, which is nice. My diaphragm breathing was good and strong right through it and that helped a lot. Yay!
Thanks!
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2020-05-11 00:02
SunnyDaze wrote:
>.
> In New York, there was data suggesting that even people who
> isoloated themselves in home got sick with the virus. The data
> was not 100% confirmed because there was suspicion that the
> responders did not answer the questions about isolation
> truthfully.
Sometimes people isolate themselves but open the door for a delivery person ... thus they are not isolated. ITrue isolation is incredible extreme.
> It looks like, however, that it should be safe for people who
> have antibodies, to be in contact with other people who
> developed antibodies.
I hope so! No one is exactly sure yet. They (researchers) haven't been able to completely explain re-infection yet, though there are a number of hypothesis that are being explored.
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2020-05-11 00:37
Mark, yes I completely agree:
The question of immunity is very much still open. It depends whether this coronavirus is going to be a disease that stays the same forever, or whether it's going to mutate every year like the flu does.
When flu comes round each year, it has mutated a little bit from last year, so although it still has the same name, it is a subtlely different disease from last year. That's why we need a new flu vaccine each year.
Conversely, chicken pox stays the same forever, so once we've had it once, we are immune.
I think the question of coronavirus immunity is a lot to do with whether it turns out to mutate regularly like flu, or stay the same like chickenpox.
about the safety of isolation -
I agree that complete isolation would be very hard. I certainly do get things delivered and I don't quarantine everything that comes into my house, or bleach everything. That would be a huge amount of work. So in that respect, most people are still a little at risk, even if they stay home.
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Author: ruben
Date: 2020-05-11 00:48
It would seem-according to some researchers-that it doesn't mutate, which would be good news. But who knows?
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: fromsfca
Date: 2020-05-11 01:03
I regularly play woodwind trios on my driveway.
We’re outside, chairs 6 feet apart. The virus does not carry well outside and we’re far enough apart that we are not overly concerned.
I also play driveway sonatas with an accompanist, obviously with a keyboard, not a piano. Again, outdoors, proper spacing.
I can manage risk and still live my life.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2020-05-11 06:39
ruben wrote:
> It would seem-according to some researchers-that it doesn't
> mutate, which would be good news. But who knows?
>
So far, in medical term, there's seems to be one strain with multiple expressions (damn, i can't remember the right term). Essentially, we've got Honda civics in different colors, where you can think of a Honda civic as a strain and the cllor as an expression. Functionally they're all the same thing and a vaccine against Honda civics works. If the virus mutates into Honda Accords we're SOL and have to make a new vaccine.
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2020-05-11 10:18
fromsfca - Driveway music sounds perfect. I think you've got this problem sorted already!
About mutation - this article here:
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2020/may/10/scientists-concerned-that-coronavirus-is-adapting-to-humans
shows the current state of play on mutation.
The virus has a spike protein that it uses to infect human cells, and it is that protein that the scientists are trying to design a vaccine against. They are watching the virus very carefully to see if the spike protein is mutating, as that might mean that the vaccines then wouldn't work.
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2020-06-09 19:35
Hi,
I wondered if this article might be useful? It's about a scientific study of social distancing in wind instrument playing.
https://medium.com/@SixtoFMontesinos/wind-instruments-may-not-be-as-contagious-as-we-thought-b821e590b29a
Jen
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2020-06-09 20:57
SunnyDaze wrote:
> https://medium.com/@SixtoFMontesinos/wind-instruments-may-not-be-as-contagious-as-we-thought-b821e590b29a
>
The method of measuring the aerosols is interesting. I'm not sure, when I read "hardly any measurable breathing air movements with woodwind and brass players" in the summary excerpt, that it's evidence that there isn't an accumulation of very small amounts of "breathing air" exiting the woodwind instruments at many different places, even if no single area of turbulence is detected in the artificial fog they used. I may just misunderstand what the study designers were doing, but I would feel more confident if the air around each player were sampled and analyzed directly for viral particles. I assume from other reports I've read that this kind of air sampling is possible.
A flute is suggested with a redesigned head joint that allows the flute itself to be played vertically. The writer seems to suggest that this *might* be a way to reduce viral emissions for flute players.I can see how this would be useful in reducing the spacing needed to each flutist's right in an ensemble. But I'm not sure how playing with the flute body vertical helps with this particular viral problem when the player is still blowing out over a horizontal mouth hole with a good deal of "breathing air" still going directly out into the area surrounding the player.
Karl
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Author: ruben
Date: 2020-06-10 12:55
I see the company Joe Ward that manufactures music stands, platforms, etc. now has what they call "bio-screens". It might be worth looking into. I'll check out these new products more in depth.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2020-06-10 20:33
Shouldn't they put the smoke next to the first open hole in the instrument as well as at the bell?
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2020-06-11 17:29
SunnyDaze wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I wondered if this article might be useful? It's about a
> scientific study of social distancing in wind instrument
> playing.
>
> https://medium.com/@SixtoFMontesinos/wind-instruments-may-not-be-as-contagious-as-we-thought-b821e590b29a
>
> Jen
FWIW, this morning I got an email distributed by Local 77 (Philadelphia) of the American Federation of Musicians warning members about a study done "in a Nashville recording studio." It concludes (by putting tissue paper in front of brass players' bells to detect air movement from the instrument) that there is no danger of COVID-19 transmission in a wind instrument setting as long as physical distancing between players is maintained. The email also mentions (but doesn't focus on) the study Jen cites here.
The gist of the email is that "...experiments of this type are wholly inadequate to answer the question of the extent of risk of viral transmission from winds and brass instruments. Measuring airflow is NOT the same as measuring aerosol production — a major vector of virus transmission that scientists are still learning about. Until we see actual scientific, peer-reviewed studies measuring aerosol production from wind and brass instruments, it would be foolish to rely on videos like this to make decisions regarding the health and safety of musicians."
Karl
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2020-06-11 21:40
That's really interesting, thank you. Would it be okay with you if I put that on twitter or is it not to be made public? One of our local orchestras was considering this video this week as evidence for how to get together again.
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2020-06-11 23:09
SunnyDaze wrote:
> That's really interesting, thank you. Would it be okay with you
> if I put that on twitter or is it not to be made public?
It would be OK with *me* - the email was sent to the entire local and, very likely to other locals in the U.S.. The longer statement that I excerpted from comes from Adam Schwalje MD, DMA, an ENT in Iowa who as a bassoonist has also contributed articles to the International Society of Double Reeds.
I don't know what the legal issues would be of posting the comments on Twitter, since I'm not a lawyer and I don't tweet (or even have an account).
Karl
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Author: clarinetwife
Date: 2020-08-07 03:53
We are having a brief summer band season, smaller group to accommodate physical distancing in the Masonic hall where we rehearse. Many of our usual suspects opted out, but that was fine because we had to limit our numbers. Masks are worn when not playing especially when we get up from our chairs. We always brought our own stands, even the chairs are left in place to be wiped down later. Conductor started with a mask but we couldn't understand her well so she now uses a face shield in front of the group and puts mask on when she is closer to anyone. The wind instrument that I would have the most concern about in terms of aerosol dispersal would be the flute. This thing is going on long enough that people have to balance safety/comfort level with living life.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2020-08-07 04:02
My personal worry is NOT about the dispersion factor, we don't really push more air out than what one would under more normal human indoor activity. My worry is that after a phrase (four bar, eight bars etc) we suck in a LARGE VOLUME of air with GREAT SPEED (more like a runner in full stride). So I would be concerned as a player within a confined space. This occurred to me at a church service where we were told not to "sing along," with the hymns but we could hum. After a few minutes of that I realized that I was breathing in rather heavily and THAT may be the more concerning issue.
...............Paul Aviles
Post Edited (2020-08-07 06:32)
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Author: hans
Date: 2020-08-07 07:37
This mouthwash might be worth trying, at least until there is something better:
https://www.healthing.ca/diseases-and-conditions/coronavirus/anti-viral-oral-spray-may-stop-covid-19-infection
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Author: clarinetwife
Date: 2020-08-07 07:57
Paul Aviles, that is a very legitimate concern and a reason to opt out if it tips the decision. When I was playing tonight I felt like I was in my own air, since I was distanced from my neighbors and also not facing them. YMMV. We do dearly miss the post rehearsal libation at the Masonic watering hole downstairs.
I very much appreciate the thoughtful comments and ideas on this thread. It has bothered me from the beginning that authorities in many places and situations have not really treated people like adults. Now admittedly, some people have not really been acting like adults, but that certainly does not apply to the musicians here.
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The Clarinet Pages
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