 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: klimshelf
Date: 2020-04-29 06:58
OK, doublers. I'm thinking of getting tenor sax but at this stage, age 72, I'm wondering if it'm too late to the party. I played Bb clarinet for 7 years in school in my youth (where has it gone?) and now one hour a day, every day, for the past 3 years on a YCL450 . If the fingering of the sax is close to that of the clarinet I'd like to give it a try as I've always loved the sound. How similar is the fingering between the two instruments?
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Author: Tom H
Date: 2020-04-29 07:33
All saxes are similar to the clarinet with the exception of:
--The very high notes (side keys).
--The pinky keys (rollers are used).
--Both high and low registers are the same notes as the clarinet high (clarion) register since saxes overblow an octave like all the other woodwinds except clarinet, which overblows a 12th.
--Forked fingerings work the same.
If I'm a little off on something sax players, please correct me.
The Most Advanced Clarinet Book--
tomheimer.ampbk.com/ Sheet Music Plus item A0.1001315, Musicnotes product no. MB0000649.
Boreal Ballad for unaccompanied clarinet-Sheet Music Plus item A0.1001314.
Musicnotes product no. MNO287475
Post Edited (2020-04-29 07:34)
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Author: Max S-D
Date: 2020-04-29 08:45
Fingerings are similar enough that you'll get the hang of it quickly. Practice with a fingering chart handy your first couple of days.
What's going to feel strange is how loose the embouchure is, how open the voicing is, and how loud the instrument naturally is. That takes a little longer to get the hang of before you really start sounding like a saxophonist and not a clarinetist playing the sax.
The ability to pay the sax can open up a lot of fun musical opportunities. You're going to have a blast.
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Author: ACCA
Date: 2020-04-29 13:10
Is it "like" a Bb clarinet? Well, no, but as a clarinet player can you have a go at teaching yourself and have a lot of fun? I did!- way back in in high school although I have returned to the clarinet as my main instrument. If you have played recorder the basic fingerings are not difficult to learn. The biggest initial hurdle for me was handling the bulk of the instrument, getting the strap and positioning right, and learning the changes in embouchure (loosening) and voicing (lower). The instrument and MP really does feel huge if you're used to Bb clar. If you're game and can find one for a bargain, why not!?
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2020-04-29 14:50
They're nothing like each other as one's a tenor sax and the other's a clarinet.
Breathing and breath support are different as is the embouchure as well as the way the instruments behave - saxes have far more in common with oboes than they have with clarinets. The mouthpiece/reed combo is similar, but that's where the similarity ends.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2020-04-29 14:52)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2020-04-29 15:45
And I would add......
As a clarinet playing saxophone hater, I had to double on something in the US Air Force. I tried the tenor sax at first and found that the lowest notes where honky and quite resistant (by comparison to clarinet). Years later a colleague had told me that I may have had better luck with an alto sax. During the rest of my short stay with the Air Force, I wound up meeting the technical requirement for doubling on soprano sax and oboe..........I know, weird right?
...............Paul Aviles
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Author: Tom H
Date: 2020-04-29 22:00
I too found the low notes on any sax to be "honky". I didn't notice much difference embouchure wise. Maybe that's the reason?
The Most Advanced Clarinet Book--
tomheimer.ampbk.com/ Sheet Music Plus item A0.1001315, Musicnotes product no. MB0000649.
Boreal Ballad for unaccompanied clarinet-Sheet Music Plus item A0.1001314.
Musicnotes product no. MNO287475
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Author: r small
Date: 2020-04-29 23:53
Learn to sub-tone the low notes on tenor sax. Then they're soft and puffy and very pleasant.
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Author: Max S-D
Date: 2020-04-30 00:09
If you're playing with a clarinet embouchure, then yes, the low notes will sound honky and the rest of the range will sound pinched and thin.
Learn a sax embouchure. It's not hard, it just takes a little time.
Learning the sax has made me a better clarinetist for sure, since it really got me thinking about the ways that the instruments were similar and the ways that they were different. It ended up really helping me develop awareness of the things I do to produce sound and also helped me realize how much my voicing was underdeveloped on the clarinet. It's obviously not the only way to learn those things, but it can be instructive to gain another perspective, especially if you are already interested in learning the sax.
Fingerings are obviously not the same, but are immediately recognizable as being from the same family (supposing you are accustomed to Boehm clarinets). Likewise, things like preparing and setting up your reed, the raw fundamentals of forming an embouchure, air support, etc are all common factors. Start with the similarities and work out from there to navigate the differences.
In my opinion, as someone who has worked fairly extensively on saxophones and clarinets of a variety of shapes and sizes, the breathing and breath support are fundamentally the same between the two families of instrument. The volume of air is different, as is the required air speed, but the requirement that the air be well-supported from your core is the same.
Likewise, the concepts of voicing and embouchure are fundamentally the same, just at different points along the spectrum. Where you'll voice a clarinet with an "Eee" or "Ehh" vowel shape, you'll voice a sax with more of an "Ahh" vowel shape, but you'll also be able to move between them and feel the difference. The embouchure you use on the clarinet will definitely be too tight for the tenor sax, but the muscles you use are the same. You just need to loosen up quite a bit.
Broadening your horizons and challenging yourself to learn something new is always a worthwhile intellectual pursuit, in my opinion. Plus, the tenor sax is a ton of fun!
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Author: donald
Date: 2020-04-30 01:12
I had little success playing the saxophone for many years- and it was not until I was in my 30s (and playing classical saxophone for one of NZs biggest orchestra!!!!!) that I had an epiphany that has greatly improved my control of the lower notes and tone over the rest of the instrument....
- it basically involved "un-pinching" my embouchure (mentioned above) so that the "muscle flow" was away from the reed, with the jaw opening. This, oddly enough, resulted in the "flat chin" that American teachers love to encourage on clarinet- AND greatly improved my bass clarinet playing AND the shape/balance of sound around the break on the clarinet.
Have you ever heard one of those clarinet players that can sound really "round" and bright (but not thin) going from the throat tones to the B/C/D in the clarion? (often I hear this on old Hollywood soundtracks)
That kind of sound became much easier to achieve!
So, I would propose this....
- A GOOD clarinet embouchure, and a GOOD sax embouchure are more similar that we think, though we voice differently.
- A bad or 2nd rate embouchure on clarinet MAY still get good results on clarinet (with some limitations), but will NOT work well on Saxophone.
Aged 51 I can now articulate the lowest tones on the saxophone, play the sax middle D in tune, and not sound thin and ugly.
I could NOT do this for the first 20 years of saxophone playing!
dn
ps- having an instrument where the pads seal really really well makes a huge difference on saxophone.
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Author: hans
Date: 2020-04-30 03:41
Richard,
I'm nearly 75 and have played clarinet and saxes for over 60 years, fwiw. While the two instruments are obviously different, the switch is not a difficult one.
IMO a good approach would be to rent a sax for a month to see if it suits you.
Regards and Good Luck,
Hans
PS - the following instructions (source unknown) may be useful...........
________________________________________________________
How To Play The Saxophone
First things first: Sunglasses are optional, but all the really, really good players wear them, especially indoors, as well as a Hawaiian shirt.
Next, you'll need the correct ligature.
Some people think that the ligature is just a stupid old piece of metal that holds the reed on the mouthpiece. Well, those people are idiots. Besides a cool beret, the ligature is the single most important piece of musical equipment you will ever buy. Mine, for example, is 40% platinum and 60% titanium; one screw is rubidium and the other plutonium. It makes me sound exactly like Booker Ervin would if Booker Ervin wasn't (1) dead and/or (2) living on Mars.
You may have to spend years and years and thousands of dollars finding the proper ligature, but in the end it definitely will be worth it.
Now for reeds. Optimally, you'll want to move to Cuba, grow and cure your own Arundo Donax cane, and carve your own reeds by hand. If you're just a "weekend warrior" however, you can get by with store-bought. Here's how:
First, buy ten boxes of reeds -100 in all. Next, open all the boxes and throw away 60 reeds. Those were unplayable. Take the remaining reeds and soak them in a mixture of 27.8% rubbing alcohol and 72.2% pituitary gland extract for a period of 17 weeks.
Throw away 20 more reeds. Those were stuffy.
Take the remaining 20 reeds and sand each one for exactly 13 seconds with #1200 grade 3M sandpaper.
Throw away 14 reeds. Those squeaked.
Take the remaining 6 reeds and soak them for another 17 weeks, this time however in a mixture of 27.8% pituitary gland extract and 72.2% rubbing alcohol.
Sun dry the 6 remaining reeds for 3 weeks, optimally at an equatorial latitude, and throw away 3 more just on general principles.
You now have 3 reeds that will last you several months if you play each one only 20 minutes a day in strict rotation.
Now, for the saxophone itself: First, go buy a horn.
Got it? Good. It doesn't matter what kind it is - go sell it immediately and get a different one.
The best one to get would be a Selmer Mark VI made at 4:27 PM on June 14, 1963, serial number 123687. If you can't get that one though, generally speaking the older and more expensive the better.
The following brands are good: Selmer Paris Mark VI.
The following brands are bad: any other Selmer, Yamaha, Conn, Buescher, Yanigasawa, Cannonball, LA Sax, Jupiter, Elkhart, King, Martin, Keilworth, Boosey and Hawkes, Buffet, Leblanc, Unison, Couf, Silvertone, and Holton.
It is common knowledge that you should never play the horn before you buy it: the good players go strictly on reputation and price.
You will also need some accoutrements:
A flight case capable of withstanding atmospheric pressure of dP = - Dg dz where D and g are, respectively, the density of air and the acceleration due to gravity at the altitude of the air layer and dz is a horizontal layer of air having unit surface area and infinitesimal thickness; a metronome; a tuner; a combination alto-tenor-baritone sax stand with pegs for an oboe, bass clarinet, flute, English horn and bassoon; Band in a Box and every Jamie Abersold play-along record ever created; a reed cutter, a reed knife, swabs, cleaners, pad savers,pad dope, pad clamps;a Sennheiser Digital 1092 Wireless Microphone; an effects rig with digital delay and parametric EQ; and a 200 watt (per channel, minimum) amplifier and 18" monitor.
To learn style and phrasing, it will be helpful if you listen to lots of sax players. Unfortunately, listening only to the players you enjoy is absolutely the worst thing you can do. To really understand the music and its traditions you have to go back to the beginning and listen to every bit of music ever recorded. I'd start with madrigals and work forward. Once you get to the 20th century, pay particular attention to players like Jimmy Dorsey and Sidney Bechet, who are the foundations of the modern jazz saxophone.
In just a few short years, you'll be able to understand and emulate the inner subtleties of the masterful be-bop stylings of legendary artists like Ace Cannon, Boots Randolph, and Sam Butera.
Oh, yes - to play the sax itself: Blow in the small end and move your fingers around.
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Author: AndyW
Date: 2020-04-30 12:50
i play soprano, alto and tenor saxes, I’d actually say the alto feels the most like a clarinet in terms of dynamic response, the amount of breath required, and overall tonal similarity. Embouchure requires a quite different approach, I definitely blow “into the end of” the saxophone, but “through the reed, into the top of the mouthpiece” on clarinet. Your mileage may vary...
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Author: klimshelf
Date: 2020-05-01 06:37
Thanks to everyone for your replies. I like the size of the alto and the fact that is seems to be most like the Bb clarinet (Boehm), except it is Eb. The tenor sax is Bb, so does it follow that I can play it from the myriad clarinet books I have amassed over the years? (Sorry if this is double posted, my first reply didn't appear to go . . . )
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Author: kdk
Date: 2020-05-01 11:57
klimshelf wrote:
> The tenor sax is Bb, so does it
> follow that I can play it from the myriad clarinet books I have
> amassed over the years?
To begin with, transposition is only an issue if you're playing with other people in a mixed instrument setting. If you're playing by yourself, it doesn't matter what the music was composed or arranged for originally.
You can play clarinet music on tenor (or any of the saxes if you're practicing by yourself) except that the clarinet range is much wider. You can't play the low chalumeau notes below Bb3 of the clarinet, and as a sax novice, you won't find it easy to play the altissimo notes, either.
If you want music to practice, you can use trumpet or oboe music more easily - the written range is closer to the range of a sax and more will fit into a saxophone's range without having to make octave transpositions. Download material from IMSLP. Or use your clarinet music, making octave transpositions when needed.
Karl
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Author: Matt74
Date: 2020-05-01 12:32
What everyone is saying about them being completely different is true - embouchure, etc. Nevertheless, IMO if you can play clarinet, you can already play saxophone. Adjustments are simply a matter of figuring out what to change and practicing. It seems to me that your throat is very much the same. Once you learn you won’t believe how easy it is to play in different keys.
The biggest difference is that it’s a lot harder to get a decent tone on a saxophone, and IMO modern saxes and mouthpieces make it worse. A mouthpiece with a round chamber and low baffle helps. (Yours will inevitably come with the opposite.)
Bell notes do want to “honk” a little, but the worst of it is probably due to leaks, especially the G# regulation. Just play loud. LOL.
The “standard” is alto, but learning soprano or tenor makes the most sense coming from clarinet, because of the key.
——
Hans above forgot to mention that you need at least 20 different mouthpieces, all of them with monster tip openings, tiny high-baffle chambers, and at least half of them in metal. The best ones have prominent ad campaigns. And only use #5 reeds - or popsicle sticks, whichever is harder.
- Matthew Simington
Post Edited (2020-05-01 12:37)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2020-05-01 15:48
As saxes are very flexible in the upper register, it's very easy to go painfully sharp if you tighten up your chops as you play higher. Altos and sopranos are far more prone to going sharp if you tighten up compared to tenors and baris which are more solid.
Some saxes are very flexible in the upper register - King Cleveland, Zephyr and Super 20 saxes are especially bendy and I've known some clarinet players going as much as a semitone sharp in the upper register when they play them like clarinets and then blame the instrument when they need to deal with what's going on north of the mouthpiece rather than the instrument. Also very common are clarinet players who treat soprano saxes like clarinets - they may be the same pitch, but they are very different beasts.
Just to sum it up, don't play a sax like it's a clarinet.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: hans
Date: 2020-05-02 07:40
Richard,
Karl wrote that the clarinet's range is much wider than the normal tenor sax range. That is certainly the norm, but there are fingerings available (in Sigurd M. Rascher's Top Tones) that can extend the sax range from the normal 2 1/2 octaves to ~4 octaves. Here is a link to an exceptional player who demonstrates that: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JiyjbPn8oiw
Regards,
Hans
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Author: jack
Date: 2020-05-02 10:12
The great Edmond Hall (deceased) said he bought his first alto sax early one day and played it on the job that night.
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Author: Johan H Nilsson
Date: 2020-05-05 14:03
Playing these conical bore instruments (sax, oboe, bassoon) will make you appreciate how easy to play, well-sounding and well-tuned a clarinet is. But it is fun and you will learn things that can be transferred to the clarinet, like vibrato.
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