 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: m1964
Date: 2020-04-14 18:22
Hello,
I am thinking of buying a 9* series Selmer which has slightly narrower bore comparing to a regular 9 series.
This would be a back-up/outdoor instrument. My primary clarinet is a modern-day R13.
I played a CT once and liked it. The key work felt good and it had even resistance and sound across the registers.
I wonder if the 9* series would be esily playable after playing R13. Also wonder if tuning is acceptable when playing in a large band.
Thanks
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2020-04-14 23:24
Good horns...
I feel they may need a tad more air and probably in need of a lighter reed. Just a 1/2 strength probably to fill the bore and the bigger sound, the slightly larger bore compared to your R13. As a backup horn this is fine. It was played on by a lot of really great players.
The only reason I may not want to play on it, is it's a totally different animal compared to your R13, so if it's a backup horn it won't "Sound or Feel," like your R13.
The key work is excellent. It feels better than other horns I've played on. The metal is a bit harder and the keys under your fingers are just a shade wider. I like this feel. Your Buffet probably has softer metal.
Other choices may include the Selmer 10 series since the cost isn't that much more, or even the same cost. Another R13 as your backup?
Maybe Karl will pop in. He knows this and other Selmer models very well. I feel it is a very good jazz horn because it's not as tight blowing as the R13's, in general. Please note the word general. Some R13's are very good for jazz, but I would go with the 9 or 10 series Selmer's.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2020-04-14 23:25
I've never encountered any tuning or intonation issues that can't be addressed with my Series 9* clarinets. On some shows I rotate clarinets so i get the chance to play them all in the week run and playing BT, CT, Series 9 and Series 9* hasn't ever been a problem.
The one night I wasn't happy with my choice of clarinets was when I used a Leblanc LL full Boehm and I didn't feel settled at all with it, even though it was a lovely clarinet had I given myself more of a chance to get accustomed to its ways. I sold it to a former colleague who wanted to upgrade from their Noblet Artist and the LL was a natural choice. I sent out a Series 9 as well so she had a choice of two instruments to pick from, but the Leblanc was more familiar to her.
Be aware that if you play a modern R13, it could take you a little bit of time to get accustomed to the Selmer, so give it time and patience instead of expecting it to play like your Buffet. One thing you may notice is the upper register and altissimo will speak much easier and may also be sharper than your R13, so experiment with special tuning fingerings if you have to, or relax and you'll be fine.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: m1964
Date: 2020-04-15 02:12
To Bob Bernardo:
Hi Bob, thanks a lot for your advise
Chris P wrote:
>..... Be aware that if you play a modern R13, it could take you a
> little bit of time to get accustomed to the Selmer, so give it
> time and patience instead of expecting it to play like your
> Buffet. One thing you may notice is the upper register and
> altissimo will speak much easier and may also be sharper than
> your R13, so experiment with special tuning fingerings if you
> have to, or relax and you'll be fine.
>
Chris,
Thanks a lot for posting the info above. I felt exactly the same when playing CT- it was very easy to play altissimo.
How is the wood on these 50-60 years old Selmers? Should I expect to see chipped tone holes, requiring refinish?
I am asking only because I feel comfortable repadding and recorking, but I had hard time fixing just one chipped tone hole using crazy glue, so if there is more then one defective tone hole on that Selmer, I will be in troubles. Unless I buy the proper equipment which does not make economical sense.
Again, thank a lot
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2020-04-15 09:58
If you have use of or access to a lathe, then you can make your own tonehole levelling and prepping tools machined from either brass, hardwood, ebonite, acrylic or delrin rod, machining them to the required diameter and with the face machined flat.
If you make each piece around 2" long, you can have a different diameter on either end instead of having a separate one for each size. And it also helps to have a shoulder part way down to get some purchase on when using them - but make the shoulder rounded instead of square-edged as that will be more forgiving on your thumb and index finger.
Make them a fraction just under the diameter of the tonehole countersinks as that will keep them in place when using them and superglue abrasive paper onto them (400 to 800 grit). You can also use them to level and also take the sharp edge off toneholes on Buffets to make them more pad friendly (with the rims of a maximum of around 0.3mm thick).
If you find the small diameter ones won't stay put when using them, then you can centre drill them with a 1.6m drill and tap it with an M2x0.4 tap and make a set of pilots from delrin rod cut into 2mm thick discs (and then made to the diameters you need to fit the toneholes) that are screwed into them. Fit M2x0.4 adjusting screws (a typical size used by most European oboe makers) into each pilot so they can be fitted and removed easily with a flat blade screwdriver.
For the inside edge of the tonehole, make conical versions of the required angle taper and glue abrasive onto them. For small imperfections on the crowns/rims, they can be filled with a tiny amount of superglue and it will help if you deepen them with a scalpel blade. For more serious chips, use superglue and wood dust to build up the missing bit, then trim off any that's sitting too high and use the tonehole leveller and the inside edge tools to dress them.
For any superglue that's got onto the side of the countersink, that can either be removed by carefully scraping it off with a sharp scalpel using a gentle scraping action rather than a cutting/whittling action that could cause the blade to dig into the wood, or if you can, make some reverse conical tools to match the angle of the countersink and lined with abrasive paper to restore them.
Any superglue that has found its way inside the tonehole can be carefully trimmed out with a scalpel, but do take care so you don't remove any wood as the inside diameter and shape of the tonehole is critical.
There are spherical and gently tapered reamers with multiple cutting edges designed specifically for this sort of work, but they're often pricey and available from specialists such as Boehm or Ferree's.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2020-04-15 23:24
As for the wood quality, it should be very good. But a lot of people don't take care of their horns. Just the basics, such as a yearly service, maybe cleaning the horns, maybe bore oil if the horn is really dried out. Yes common sense!
Let's face it, the wood is getting harder to find and throughout the world this wood is limited now. We must do our very best to save these old horns. It's hard to say exactly when this wood will be gone. 20 years is probably a good guess. Probably less than 50 years.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
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Author: kdk
Date: 2020-04-16 03:01
Bob Bernardo wrote:
> Maybe Karl will pop in. He knows this and other Selmer models
> very well. I feel it is a very good jazz horn because it's not
> as tight blowing as the R13's, in general. Please note the word
> general. Some R13's are very good for jazz, but I would go with
> the 9 or 10 series Selmer's.
>
Well, here I am, but I'm afraid my input will disappoint. I have experience with exactly 2 10Gs, one CT and one R13. The R13 is from the late 1950s and was set up by Moennig (including undercutting and his other routine tuning procedures), so it isn't completely typical of production R13s of the time and certainly not typical of anything recent.
My 10Gs (an A and a Bb) were early in the series. My Bb is an X series and probably as close to a Buffet feel as you would get. It's design was an extension of a Moennig Buffet. But Gigliotti continued developing the design with Selmer until Selmer decided to drop the whole series. One thing I had a problem with when I sold a later 10G to a student was that the pitch seemed too low with the standard 66mm barrel.
My CT is an instrument I got on a lark just to try a larger bored clarinet. It needed a lot of work, which Bob Bernardo very kindly provided, and it plays quite well. But differently enough from my R13 and 10G to need a some adjustments to my technique, just to cover all the holes and reach certain keys, which seem to be placed a little differently. So I wouldn't want to have to use it in an emergency. I'd want some time to acclimate to it.
I've never spent any time with a 9* (I think I tried one back in the '60s but I don't remember anything about it), so I can't comment on it.
I will say that my 10G is a little heavier physically than the R13 and the sound is what I would call denser with a little more potential for power. I would call the R13 a little lighter sounding. For whatever those words are worth.
>>Also wonder if tuning is acceptable when playing in a large band.
That would probably depend on how the tuning in the band is in general. As long as your instrument is tuning within a range of A=440-442 Hz and the scale is reasonably even, it should tune acceptably.
Karl
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Author: m1964
Date: 2020-04-16 07:10
sorry was a double post
Post Edited (2020-04-16 07:20)
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Author: m1964
Date: 2020-04-16 07:16
Attachment: Snip.png (408k)
Thanks a lot to every one who replied to me.
Regardless whether I will buy the Selmer or not, I find the info provided in the replies is very interesting an valuable, so again, thanks A LOT to Chris P., Bob and Karl!
Unfortunately, the professional repair tools can be very expensive.
The cutters on Ferree's site do not look like they can be used as a hand tool.
The set from Boehm tools (attached) seems like exactly what I would need.
I even considered buying this set of cutters but I cannot find a distributor of Boehm tools in the USA
.
I do have a friend who lives in Germany, I can possibly ask him to look if there is a way to buy the set there and have it mailed to the US.
I do not see anyone who sells it online, maybe I need to call them.
Post Edited (2020-04-16 07:20)
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2020-04-16 09:29
I'm not in Germany and I bought many tools from Boehm. They ship internationally, it's not a problem. I guess it depends if there are flights or mail to your country now and from Germany. Maybe ask them.
If you are specifically asking about that clarinet tone hole facing set (steel with slots cut into them)*, I have that tool. What I don't like about it, and the reason I started making my own tools for that repair, is the angle is very shallow. Angles on clarinet tone holes vary, so you always need the angle on the tool to be shallower than the tone hole angle itself. Otherwise it would cut at the bottom of the countersink and not the pad seat itself. This is why they are purposely made that way, to fit pretty much all clarinets.
I prefer to not make the seat angle shallower than it is. I still use that Boehm set occasionally. It's a very good and well made tool other than that one issue. It's not cheap though if that's a consideration.
*Edit: missed the photo, yes that's the set I was referring to.
Post Edited (2020-04-16 09:30)
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Author: m1964
Date: 2020-04-16 10:56
clarnibass wrote:
> I still use that Boehm set occasionally. It's a very good and
> well made tool other than that one issue. It's not cheap though
> if that's a consideration.
>
Clarnibass- thanks a lot, the price is a consideration since I am NOT a professional tech, and only fix my own or sometimes bandmate's instruments so investing a $1000 into a set of cutters is not a good option.
I may not even need this tool, but i recently bought an Evette and repadded it- only one tone hole was damaged, I filled it with super glue but the proper repair should have been done by using the cutter. It is playable but does not hold vacuum well.
The only thing is that the Evette sounds so basic and not even close to my R13P. So now I am looking for a backup clarinet again but something that has good sound/tone, inexpensive- which led me to these older Selmers like CT or 9 series, that need restoration, because restored ones are not cheap.
Thanks again.
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Author: John Peacock
Date: 2020-04-16 12:32
I have a 9* Bb. I agree with previous comments that the sound is rather different to that of a Buffet, and for that reason I enjoy practicing on it from time to time. But, slightly in contradiction to some earlier comments, I don't find that the tuning is really up to modern standards and I wouldn't play it with a group. I take Chris P's point about needing to give time to learn to play on something different, but I don't think this is ingrained Buffet habits getting in the way. I've had more recent Selmer instruments on trial (S10 and Privilege), and found the tuning pretty good. Conversely, I used to own a Selmer BT, where the tuning was much further out than the 9*. My impression is that the Buffet polycylindrical revolution of the mid-1950s raised the bar with clarinet intonation, and it took other manufacturers some time to catch up. The 9* is a stage on that journey for Selmer, but the process wasn't complete.
OK, as usual, individual instruments vary and possibly I've been unlucky. But my advice would be to give this 9* a very careful going over with a tuner before buying it.
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Author: m1964
Date: 2020-04-17 06:40
John Peacock wrote:
> I have a 9* Bb. I agree with previous comments that the sound
> is rather different to that of a Buffet, and for that reason I
> enjoy practicing on it from time to time. But, slightly in
> contradiction to some earlier comments, I don't find that the
> tuning is really up to modern standards and I wouldn't play it
> with a group...
> My impression is that the Buffet polycylindrical revolution of
> the mid-1950s raised the bar with clarinet intonation, and it
> took other manufacturers some time to catch up. The 9* is a
> stage on that journey for Selmer, but the process wasn't
> complete.
>
> OK, as usual, individual instruments vary and possibly I've
> been unlucky. But my advice would be to give this 9* a very
> careful going over with a tuner before buying it.
John,
Thanks a lot for your advice- unfortunately I am unable to try it because it is listed on "that site" where you buy things unseen.
I am now thinking if I should wait for a modern day E12 to show up on CL - the E 12 most likely would be the closest "inexpensive" model to R13.
Again, thanks a lot- I am going to think hard before bidding on the Selmer.
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Author: r small
Date: 2020-04-17 08:19
The Selmer Presence can be had for about $3,200. Great clarinet at a low price for a professional grade instrument. Consider the Presence unless you could get the 9* for a steal, say, 4 or 5 hundred dollars. I would not pay any more than that for a used older model clarinet.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2020-04-17 08:21
>> investing a $1000 into a set of cutters is not a good option. <<
Luckily that Boehm set only costs 160 Euros.
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Author: Jeroen
Date: 2020-04-17 11:53
I have owned several older Selmer clarinets including the 9*. While the CT and 9 (without *) have there benefits in having a slightly larger bore, are more easy blowing and have a good altissimo register, the 9* has never worked for me. I think it feels more restrictive and it lacks carrying power. Tuning doesn't have to be a problem however.
As a backup instrument for your R13 you can also think of an E13, an old BC20 or an Evette. From Selmer I would look for a cheap 10S or 10G.
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Author: r small
Date: 2020-04-17 16:53
Ridenour Libertas would make a good backup/outdoors horn too. Tone and intonation are good and the hard rubber body is hassle free. At around $1,500 cost is not much more than some student models.
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Author: m1964
Date: 2020-04-18 03:20
r small wrote:
" Ridenour Libertas would make a good backup/outdoors horn too. Tone and intonation are good and the hard rubber body is hassle free. At around $1,500 cost is not much more than some student models."
Hi R Small,
I wish I could afford a back up instrument for $1500! I would just get a used R13 but, unfortunately, it has to be relatively inexpensive - that is why I am looking at the pro-level clarinet that may need some work that I would be able to do by myself.
Jeroen wrote:
"I have owned several older Selmer clarinets including the 9*. While the CT and 9 (without *) have there benefits in having a slightly larger bore, are more easy blowing and have a good altissimo register, the 9* has never worked for me. I think it feels more restrictive and it lacks carrying power. Tuning doesn't have to be a problem however.
As a backup instrument for your R13 you can also think of an E13, an old BC20 or an Evette. From Selmer I would look for a cheap 10S or 10G."
Hi Jeroen,
Thanks for good info about Selmers.
Unfortunately, the cheap Evette I just fixed is so far apart from my R13P that I just don't enjoy playing it. Maybe I am spoiled.
I did try a couple of Selmers that belong to band mates (I was repaddig them)- one was a CT and another was advanced student (can't remember the model) - the student one was an OK and the CT was very easy to play esp. in altissimo.
What surprised me was that on the student Selmer the throat A key spring was not flat but a post-mounted needle spring, which of course caused the post, which was screwed into the wood, to get loose. Otherwise it was a decent- sounding instrument, with some tuning problems.
My "new" Evette, on the other hand, sounds very basic.
The good thing is that there are so many different instruments being sold that I eventually will find one that will work for me.
Again,
Thanks to everyone who replied to me.
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