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 Disinfecting techniques
Author: Dan Shusta 
Date:   2020-03-12 21:18

Now that the coronavirus has been officially declared a pandemic (especially deadly to the elderly), I began to wonder how players disinfect their reeds, mouthpieces, metal ligatures, and the clarinet instrument itself.

This pandemic virus can "float" in the air and can remain alive on surfaces for up to 2 to 3 days depending upon the surface. So, even though you may be washing your hands several times per day for 20 seconds, IMO, there is always the chance your fingers will touch something where the virus is residing.

I also began to wonder if players normally disinfect their new reeds. Or do you believe that new reeds don't need to be disinfected?

Although the following article concerns disinfecting techniques for the entire instrument after being sick, I believe it still offers very useful information.

http://jennyclarinet.com/2018/04/how-to-disinfect-your-clarinet-after-youve-been-sick/

Please allow me to restate what you have probably already heard or read so many times: DO NOT TOUCH YOUR FACE DIRECTLY WITH YOUR FINGERS OR HAND!

I have a roll of toilet paper on my desk. Whenever I feel the urge to rub my nose, eyelids, or any other part of my face, I simply tear off one segment of the toilet paper, place it between my finger and face and rub to relieve the itch. I immediately toss the paper into the garbage.

I appreciate your comments.



Post Edited (2020-03-12 22:12)

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 Re: Disinfecting techniques
Author: Bob Bernardo 
Date:   2020-03-12 22:22

Nice Dan! Thanks! Good post!


Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces


Yamaha Artist 2015




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 Re: Disinfecting techniques
Author: Ken Lagace 
Date:   2020-03-12 23:12

Hydrogen peroxide is anti-bacterial and Listerine is anti-virus.
Hydrogen peroxide also 'decomposes' into water if left in sunlight or old.

I use the original Listerine..

Research a bit before deciding which is best for your situation.

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 Re: Disinfecting techniques
Author: Paul Aviles 
Date:   2020-03-13 01:40

Can't get too caught up in theoreticals. If you HAVE coronavirus you can wait until your over it to disinfect your reeds (maybe just buy a new box) and clarinets.



Also this era has ushered in a much more hygienic "don't touch my reed or mouthpiece" method of operation. I don't see how we are any more vulnerable than the rest of the public.




...............Paul Aviles



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 Re: Disinfecting techniques
Author: Dan Shusta 
Date:   2020-03-13 02:39

Hi Paul,

When you stated "If you HAVE coronavirus you can wait until your over it to disinfect your reeds (maybe just buy a new box) and clarinets," I did a little research. It turns out, you can catch the virus more than once and in two of the links below, it states you are worse off:

https://thedailycoin.org/2020/02/14/you-can-catch-the-coronavirus-more-than-once-and-the-2nd-time-may-be-deadlier-video/

https://www.cleveland.com/metro/2020/02/can-you-catch-coronavirus-more-than-once-officials-urge-caution-covid-19-news-roundup.html

https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/health/health-problems/can-you-catch-coronavirus-more-than-once/news-story/bf13a9f31369667eb835e9bc2e73423e


You also stated: "Also this era has ushered in a much more hygienic "don't touch my reed or mouthpiece" method of operation. I don't see how we are any more vulnerable than the rest of the public."

Well, one NBA player who thought he was not infected touched a lot of microphones after each game. He later tested positive for the virus. Here's his story:

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/sport/basketball/nba-player-rudy-gobert-apologises-for-endangering-public-with-coronavirus/ar-BB116Zvd?li=BBoPWjP


Also, when you play in any group, are you the recommended 3 feet away from all of your fellow players? Schools, churches, concerts, basketball games, etc, are being shut down or closed to prevent the spread of the virus.


At the beginning of your response, you stated: "Can't get too caught up in theoreticals." IMHO, we're not dealing with "theoreticals", we're dealing with reality.



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 Re: Disinfecting techniques
Author: Paul Aviles 
Date:   2020-03-13 03:47

Depends on which party you're affiliated with my friend.





..............Paul Aviles



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 Re: Disinfecting techniques
Author: hans 
Date:   2020-03-13 04:04
Attachment:  COVID prevention.jpg (160k)

A friend recommended the attached defense. Since hand sanitizers contain ~60% ethanol, why not?

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 Re: Disinfecting techniques
Author: kdk 2017
Date:   2020-03-13 04:25

Dan Shusta wrote:

> Hi Paul,
>
> ... I did a little research. It turns out, you can
> catch the virus more than once and in two of the links below,
> it states you are worse off:
>
> https://thedailycoin.org/2020/02/14/you-can-catch-the-coronavirus-more-than-once-and-the-2nd-time-may-be-deadlier-video/
>
> https://www.cleveland.com/metro/2020/02/can-you-catch-coronavirus-more-than-once-officials-urge-caution-covid-19-news-roundup.html
>
> https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/health/health-problems/can-you-catch-coronavirus-more-than-once/news-story/bf13a9f31369667eb835e9bc2e73423e
>

Dan, do you know anything about these three websites? About the authors? They may be authoritative...or not. I haven't watched Dr. Marten's video, but the articles don't really carry convincing evidence, only very limited anecdotes that may or may not involve true reinfections.

From what I've read, no one really understands much yet about how this strain of corona works, except that it's carried on respiratory droplets and is **not** airborne, i.e. it doesn't stay or live in the air according to current evidence. Once expelled, it lands somewhere nearby. Beyond that there hasn't been time yet to thoroughly study this bug.

It seems to me if you're going to sterilize your equipment between playing sessions you ought to be following the general recommendation of using something that's at least 70% (140 proof) alcohol. Sanimist qualifies, as would, I suppose, 150 proof rum or Everclear (190 proof). May as well use something that will kill all common pathogens.

Karl

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 Re: Disinfecting techniques
Author: Paul Aviles 
Date:   2020-03-13 05:40

Ah, Everclear...........now we're ON to something. Shhhhh. Don't tell everyone, it'll just be harder to find.







...............Paul Aviles



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 Re: Disinfecting techniques
Author: Dan Shusta 
Date:   2020-03-13 06:49

Ya know, I started this thread simply to find out about how various players disinfect their equipment during this pandemic. Gosh! Do any of you really believe that we don't have a pandemic?

I had no idea how quickly it would become political when Paul Aviles stated: "Depends on which party you're affiliated with my friend."

Well, Paul, your POTUS is scared right now because he sat next to and spoke with the President of Brazil who has coronavirus. (I'll bet he even shook his hand! OMG!) My, my my...wouldn't it be something if he came down with coronavirus!

KDK; It appears you never approve of my sources. So, please do me a favor, OK? Tell me which sources you would accept and I'll search for those. Maybe the CDC or the NIH? Or, maybe some other source?

And, oh, by the way...I enjoy the humorous, alcoholic responses just as much as others do.



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 Re: Disinfecting techniques
Author: hans 
Date:   2020-03-13 07:08


This is my favourite source of medical information:

https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/coronavirus/symptoms-causes/syc-20479963

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 Re: Disinfecting techniques
Author: kdk 2017
Date:   2020-03-13 07:09

Dan Shusta wrote:

> KDK; It appears you never approve of my sources. So, please do
> me a favor, OK? Tell me which sources you would accept and I'll
> search for those. Maybe the CDC or the NIH? Or, maybe some
> other source?
>
> And, oh, by the way...I enjoy the humorous, alcoholic responses
> just as much as others do.
>

Right now, the medical experts at CDC and NIH would be a good start, as would be Cleveland Clinic or Johns Hopkins. If the AMA were to post information, I'd give that credit, too. The trouble is, the epidemiological research has simply not had time to develop. I didn't disapprove of your sources. I only asked what you know about them. If you know enough about them to know they have some research authority, I'm glad to hear it and would like to know more about them myself. I can find, I suspect without too much trouble, online sources that still insist the earth is flat. Hopefully, there are no serious online references to the earth's being carried on the back of a great turtle (see the King's son in "The King and I").

I wasn't being entirely facetious about the alcohol. Sanimist is a commercial alcohol-based disinfectant for mouthpieces and reeds. The rum and Everclear suggestions would work just as well for dipping reeds and mouthpieces as anything else - then rinse if you don't like the taste they leave. Of course if you want to sip it yourself, too... :)

Karl

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 Re: Disinfecting techniques
Author: rtaylor 
Date:   2020-03-13 18:57

I appreciate Dan starting this thread just for a general discussion. I think it's valuable for younger players to read and understand these things. I've always told my students to discard any reeds they have used while sick. Now more than ever. It's not worth it to get sick again simply because of a reed that is infected. For mouthpieces I've always recommended Isopropyl alcohol on a -tip and swab it completely.



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 Re: Disinfecting techniques
Author: Dan Shusta 
Date:   2020-03-13 20:32

hans,

According to the following article, (Sorry kdk, it's not from the CDC, NIH, WHO, etc.) and according to the author, 70% alcohol content is better than super, 100% hard liquor. (My interpretation)

https://www.apartmenttherapy.com/isopropyl-alcohol-percent-disinfecting-36723904?utm_source=pocket-newtab

Who would ever think that 70% rubbing alcohol would beat out Jack Daniels for killing germs?



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 Re: Disinfecting techniques
Author: Paul Aviles 
Date:   2020-03-13 21:25

Yes, it is serious, but remember you and your clarinet (and reeds and mouthpiece) are "Socially Isolated."



Novel Coronavirus (Covid-19) is a variation on the flu and the common cold. When I get a cold I can't get more cold slurping on the same reed I used yesterday. That would be akin to getting more pregnant.



Although this is somewhat academic. If you are in the throws of Covid-19 chances are you are going to find painful breathing hard enough (the result of bad pneumonia) so perhaps we'd be inclined to take a break from playing for just a little while.




..............Paul Aviles



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 Re: Disinfecting techniques
Author: Dan Shusta 
Date:   2020-03-13 22:17

Paul,

I agree...it is serious, however, I read several news sites as well as CNN interviews with people who have Covid-19, and, the severity varies from very mild symptoms to hospitalizations. It depends quite heavily, according to my understanding, upon the age and general health and well being of the individual. I'm 73 and in good health. My wife is 6 years younger, however, she has a severe underlying health condition. The other day, she mentioned to me that if she got it, she would be dead. So, again from my readings, not all people infected with the Covid-19 experience painful breathing.

I'm not so sure you can't "further infect" yourself if you have Covid-19. To me, adding more of these germs to one's health system could possibly make a person's health worse or at least prolong the healing time frame. However, that is just my opinion.

As to yourself and your clarinet, being "socially isolated" to me means that you and your clarinet are not near other people. Even being at home does not mean one is "socially isolated" unless the person is single and lives alone. (IMO)

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 Re: Disinfecting techniques
Author: kdk 2017
Date:   2020-03-13 22:55

Dan Shusta wrote:

> I'm not so sure you can't "further infect" yourself if you have
> Covid-19. To me, adding more of these germs to one's health
> system could possibly make a person's health worse or at least
> prolong the healing time frame. However, that is just my
> opinion.

Respectfully, Dan, this is really the crux of the authority issue. Opinions of non-experts in a medical discussion fall within a range of harmless but irrelevant to possibly dangerous (if they lead others to destructive behaviors). The conventional wisdom among experts is that recovering from a virus leaves antibodies that protect us from being reinfected with the same virus. (This is not, apparently, true of bacterial infections). If COVID-19 is atypical in this regard, not an impossibility, the ability **of the same strain of the virus** (the one that might still be living in your reeds and on your mouthpiece) to reinfect you **if you have completely recovered** would take a longer research study to establish than COVID-19 has been on the ground among humans. And, of course, if what got to you is strep, you could apparently be reinfected.

So, I have no argument with you or anyone else who wants to disinfect reeds and mouthpieces between uses. COVID-19 isn't needed as a reason.

The author of the article about alcohol, btw, is easy to find references for online and seems to be quite respectable. And she's writing about a topic that has enough history to allow for research-based conclusions that don't need to rely on anyone's opinion. So, i'll go back to spritzing my reeds and mouthpieces with Sanimist (70% alcohol) when I think there's a need and save the booze for other uses. :)

Karl

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 Re: Disinfecting techniques
Author: Philip Caron 
Date:   2020-03-14 00:12

I've seen reports from different sources that individuals in China and Japan who recovered from the virus later became reinfected. That by itself is inconclusive.

I've also seen reports that there are two identified strains of the thing. Influenza commonly mutates and in the new form can reinfect; that's why a different vaccine is needed each season.

The idea of reinfection by Covid19 seems possible. However, to me it still seems unlikely that an individual will catch the same thing a second time from their clarinet (or reed or tongue cleaner or etc.)

Then again, keeping things clean is a good general policy.

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 Re: Disinfecting techniques
Author: Dan Shusta 
Date:   2020-03-14 01:29

Karl,

I'd appreciate hearing your comments on Philip Caron's post above.

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 Re: Disinfecting techniques
Author: kdk 2017
Date:   2020-03-14 03:06

Dan Shusta wrote:

> Karl,
>
> I'd appreciate hearing your comments on Philip Caron's post
> above.

Well, the possibility - indeed the probability - that a virus will mutate is high. I imagine even if we end up with some kind of vaccine, it may need to be re-administered annually to account for then current strains. Unless or until the scientists who are working on a general vaccine that can recognize common genetic components of all corona viruses (e.g. common cold) succeed.

As to "reports from different sources that individuals in China and Japan who recovered from the virus later became reinfected. That by itself is inconclusive," I agree completely with Philip's second sentence and, seemingly like Phillip, don't put too much stock in the first. There are other explanations for the reappearance of any illness after the person has seemingly gotten well. That doesn't say (and I haven't said) that I think reinfection is impossible, only that the possibility hasn't and probably can't have been conclusively documented in the short time the medical community has been dealing with this.

I would say that I agree with Philip's post completely. Where do you see a disagreement?

Karl

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 Re: Disinfecting techniques
Author: hans 
Date:   2020-03-14 03:10

Dan,

Liquor contains ethanol, while rubbing alcohol contains isopropyl alcohol (IPA).
It is important not to confuse them, since it takes very little IPA to cause poisoning.
Here is a link to the IPA MSDS: https://fscimage.fishersci.com/msds/89530.htm

Regards,
Hans

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 Re: Disinfecting techniques
Author: Dan Shusta 
Date:   2020-03-14 03:28

Karl,

I never said I saw a disagreement. I'm just trying to learn what language to use so that I don't feel targeted for a chastisement. Oh, by the way, Marc C is the moderator. If I'm saying something wrong, I know that he will send me a personal email.

hans,

My last line comparing 70% rubbing alcohol and Jack Daniels was meant as a joke. Obviously, I'm not a very good comedian.

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 Re: Disinfecting techniques
Author: hans 
Date:   2020-03-14 03:41

Dan,

It worried me a little that someone might think that alcohols were interchangeable. I would feel safer using vodka to clean my mouthpiece than IPA (FWIW - normally I use vinegar).

BTW, at this point there isn't much definitive information, but it's well established that viruses can mutate (for example, there are four varieties of Dengue Fever virus and it's possible to be infected with all four) so that it would be prudent to consider that covid-19 could have similar characteristics.

Regards,
Hans (who is going to hibernate until the pandemic is over)

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 Re: Disinfecting techniques
Author: kdk 2017
Date:   2020-03-14 04:29

Dan Shusta wrote:

> Karl,
>
> I never said I saw a disagreement. I'm just trying to learn
> what language to use so that I don't feel targeted for a
> chastisement.

English is fine. It wasn't your language. I only *asked* if you know anything about the authors whose articles you were citing as authority. Reliable sources usually give reliable information. Obscure ones can't be given credibility until you know if they're knowledgeable. There's too much disinformation on the web not to want to know if an author knows what he's talking about or not.

> Oh, by the way, Marc C is the moderator. If I'm
> saying something wrong, I know that he will send me a personal
> email.

Yes! Agreed.

Karl

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 Re: Disinfecting techniques
Author: SunnyDaze 
Date:   2020-03-15 00:32

I think Hans has the right attitude with his hibernation plan. I don't think any amount of clarinet cleaning is going to help with the coronavirus, unfortunately.

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 Re: Disinfecting techniques
Author: Tom H 
Date:   2020-03-15 04:33

I have always thoroughly rinsed my reeds (the one I just played on) and mouthpiece with cold water after use.
Of course my reason is to not do this is gross, plus whatever germs are in my mouth should not be remaining on the reed/mouthpiece to "ferment" and then I play again.
But, not sure what this has to do with the Virus. No one else ever blows my clarinet, and can't even think of a time at rehearsals or concerts when someone would have cause to even touch it.
Of course practicing at home--it's just me in a room.
If you're gunna do something more to disinfect your own reed & mouthpiece wouldn't you also have to disinfect everything in your house every time you touched anything?

I suppose you could be at a rehearsal/concert and someone in the group (or audience) could be close enough to your mouthpiece (or clarinet in general) to breathe on it. Perhaps during intermission or a break. But again, you'd wind up disinfecting it every time you left it & came back to it. Plus, the rehearsals and concerts are most assuredly cancelled by now anyway.

The Most Advanced Clarinet Book--Austin Macauley Publishers
tomheimer.ampbk.com/
austinmacauley.com/author/heimer-tom (PDF samples here)


Post Edited (2020-03-17 20:40)

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 Re: Disinfecting techniques
Author: crusius 
Date:   2020-03-17 04:00

FWIW, I dip my reeds in a 1% povidone-iodine solution after playing, to try and make them last a bit longer. It turns out this seems to be effective against Covid19 too.

https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:Ea_9jiv6X8gJ:https://www.uptodate.com/contents/coronaviruses+&cd=10&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

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 Re: Disinfecting techniques
Author: SunnyDaze 
Date:   2020-03-29 09:42

Hi,

I'm pretty certain that I've got covid now and am just thinking about how to clean my equipment so I don't reinfect myself.

I suppose the plan is to boil wash my pull-throughs, and bin my reeds is it? By the time the virus is gone from me, it should be long gone from my clarinet.

I didn't manage to plough through the thread, but would be glad to know if any conclusions were reached.

Thanks,

Jen

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 Re: Disinfecting techniques
Author: eac 2017
Date:   2020-03-31 16:41

No need to boil swabs/pull throughs which might shrink. Just toss in regular laundry maybe in a lingerie bag to keep from getting tangled and wash in hot water and laundry soap. Let drip dry. Iron if you are compulsive. Wouldn’t hurt to wipe down case You could also use rubbing alcohol on a rag on the inside of the case. It will clean up old cork grease and other gunk. And toss the reeds. Might want to wipe down reed holder.

Liz Leckey

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 Re: Disinfecting techniques
Author: oian 
Date:   2020-03-31 23:24

The three main types of alcohol in common use: Ethanol (alcoholic beverages, hand sanitizers Purell etc. and is now added to gasoline) nontoxic internal/external. Isopropyl (rubbing alcohol) toxic internally, non toxic externally. Methanol (racing fuel, solvents, and is added to ethanol to make it undrinkable which is then sold as "denatured" alcohol) toxic both internally and externally.

Most alcoholic beverages, with the exception of "Everclear" (up to 190 proof- 95%) and a few Rums, are only up to 100 proof-50%.

I understand some people are using Everclear (expensive with the liquor tax) to make hand sanitizer.

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 Re: Disinfecting techniques
Author: hans 
Date:   2020-04-01 03:12
Attachment:  MSDS Ethanol.pdf (735k)

It may be more appropriate to advise caution wrt ethanol, rather than calling it "nontoxic internal/external". It is certainly not benign, according to the MSDS, with the potential to damage the eye's cornea and other issues; it should be handled with appropriate care.

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 Re: Disinfecting techniques
Author: SunnyDaze 
Date:   2020-04-08 00:55

Hi,

I just looked up how long people are considered to be contagious after covid-19, so I could work out when I can start playing my clarinet again.

The WHO guidelines say 14 days after the end of symptoms, and the UK ones say 7 days after the start of symptoms. That's a big difference isn't it?

I wonder when that means I get to play again? Maybe I won't want to play for two weeks after anyway. I'm pretty zonked and it might take that long to get back in playing form anyway.

Jen

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 Re: Disinfecting techniques
Author: Dan Shusta 
Date:   2020-04-08 02:30

SunnyDaze,

According to the CDC, the time period is different depending upon whether a person is tested or not.

Source:

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/if-you-are-sick/steps-when-sick.html

Scroll to the bottom and look for "If you will not have a test" or "If you will be tested"

Personally, I feel the two negative tests, 24 hrs apart is the most definitive.



Reply To Message
 
 Re: Disinfecting techniques
Author: SunnyDaze 
Date:   2020-04-08 10:16

Hi Dan,

That's a useful page thanks. I won't be tested as there is no testing here but three days after the end of the fever seems like a sensible compromise. :-)

Thanks!

Jen

Reply To Message
 
 Re: Disinfecting techniques
Author: SunnyDaze 
Date:   2020-04-08 23:13

Hi,

I just saw this article that has a chart about how long the coronavirus lives on different materials. I thought it was quite good. The chart is about half way down.

https://www.businessinsider.com/coronavirus-lifespan-on-surfaces-graphic-2020-3?r=US&IR=T

Jen

Reply To Message
 
 Re: Disinfecting techniques
Author: Plonk 
Date:   2020-04-09 10:53

Speedy recovery Jen x

Reply To Message
 
 Re: Disinfecting techniques
Author: SunnyDaze 
Date:   2020-04-09 14:02

Thanks Plonk. :-) I hope you are doing okay there too. x

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