 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Kalashnikirby
Date: 2020-03-07 22:05
This title may be a little blunt, and I do realize that there's a ton of individual preferences.
That beings said, I've been noticing just how big the difference between a "good" and a "bad" pad turns out to be after years of use on an instrument.
For example, I find Pisoni Premium Deluxe to be an acceptable standard, but they do vary and some need to be thrown away, usually because of being porous out of the box.
Their cork pads however are brilliant, almost always perfectly usable, granted you sand them. But no cork pad I've ever seen is perfectly smooth. On the other hand, their sax pads are neither great nor acceptably priced, really don't recommend them...
Then there's instrumentclinicusa. They're cheap and still offer good stuff, but way too little variation (i.e. pad thickness, sizes)
Finally, what really surprised me was MusicMedic. If you want, you'll get white Roopads in 3mm, 3,5mm and 4mm thickness (not 2,5mm - sometimes necessary for german system!) which is pretty brilliant. Their eveness, response and stability seems pretty perfect - wow! Best pad I've ever tried for BC and I'm picky.
Another kangoroo leather pad would be Prestini, but they're not entirely as nice as MusicMedic - still decent, though. Moderate price.
What hasn't been so satisfactory for me (yet) are flat springs. Nobody I've tried so far has offered acceptable quality. I really wonder who makes springs for Buffet, since they're on another level. In comparison, the blue'd Pisoni flat springs where pretty much crap, way too soft to work with any instrument.
My question: What do professionals swear by? Do you guys know a type of pad that you absolutely cannot live without (for me, that'd be cork!). Where to get the best flat springs? Just asking out of curiosity, I'm aware there's stuff like Goretex or silicone pads. In particular, it'd be interesting if you find it necessary to buy from different makers, as I've found it necessary for my needs, even though I just repair for fun.
Best regards
Christian
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2020-03-09 13:01
I have to say that I have been pretty enamored with the Quartz Resonance Pads (QRPs) for the year that I've had them installed on my R13. There are some dubious claims from the manufacturer and distributor (to include damping of "wolf tones" even though woodwinds don't really suffer from this violin/cello nemesis).
All I can say so far is that once seated perfectly flat, they seal like cork (or Valentino Masters), should last indefinitely, and are silent to the point of being almost scary quiet (can't say that for either cork or Masters).
My only question is whether they have any affect on the dynamics of the horn (damp the sound comparatively to cork or Masters). But since their performance has been excellent and I have gotten more than enough volume to pretty much piss off everyone around me, I think they're going to stay.........for now.
...................Paul Aviles
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Author: Kalashnikirby
Date: 2020-03-10 18:37
Yeah, I’ve heard pretty good things about the QRPs, but I suppose the price is rather hefty.
There’s been an ongoing discussion on whether or not Pads influence the sound; even though I’m always interested in statements on this, I really couldn’t make out any difference (cork vs leather) and thus wouldn’t really make this an important criterion when choosing a pad.
But nice to know they work great for you nonetheless.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2020-03-10 22:26
I would add though that I do hear a difference between leather and cork.
In my youth (and inexperience) I assumed as a "Chicago boy" that one needed to "Brannenize" their instrument as soon as possible. So when I received my Wurlitzer 100Cs from Wurlitzer back in the mid '80s it only took me about six months to go have the both completely repadded. I therefore had a pretty good comparison back then on the difference (though there may have been more subtle issues regarding tuning that may not have been so wary of at the time) in the overall response.
Cork gets a dramatically louder sound that tends to be a little more analytical. By that I mean there is more definition between notes. Over the years I've experienced a number of other pads such as Yamaha's Luciene Deluxe pads (pretty much a standard bladder pad but configured with a tiny plastic button in the center that made them quite flat) and Kraus Omni pads that led me to believe that besides material, the flatness of the pad surface may be most responsible for a bigger and more detailed sound.
That brings me to now, where the jury is still out. Though the QRPs have the flattest surface I have ever seen (no seat at all to speak of.......flat as glass) the difference between these and cork or Omni (or Valentino Masters) is NOT obvious.
This brings me to the OTHER factor that I had been pondering which was the hardness (or lack thereof) of the pad material. The standard Valentino pads (Green backs) not only form a really deep seat over a fairly short period of use, but are also really mushy. I have always disliked the tendency for those pads to have an almost blurry quality especially for the side keys (when used for trills).
The QRPs are a unique consistency since the whole of the pad (besides the surface) is a silicone base. Though not entirely mushy, you can mush them down with moderate pressure and that may lend to absorb some energy off the body of the clarinet.
And that's where I lose certainty. Though $146.00 US dollars is substantially more than an average price for a set of 16 pads, it is only a percentage of a "good" overhaul. Therefore I don't want to have my tech strip off these pads and redo the work in Valentino Masters.....just yet.
There is still the attractive quality of the very silent action presented by the QRPs but in terms of most of us (who are not studio musicians with mics EVERYWHERE) that is not much of a real world issue. If the dynamic quality of the Masters turns out to be better (at some indeterminate time in the future) I would drop the idea of the QRPs in a heart beat.
..................Paul Aviles
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Author: Steven Ocone
Date: 2020-03-11 02:53
What professionals prefer differs from country to country. Cork on the upper joint was standard in the US when I started repairing. Now I use mostly Masters pads on professional clarinets, but I don't hesitate to use another pad in specific spots or upon request.
How well the pad seals is just as important as the pad type. For the pads I use and to get the results I want, that requires working on the tone holes and refitting the keys. For those with less experience I would suggest a pad that takes a deeper seat – like most leather pads or a softer synthetic. I will do this myself sometimes
Steve Ocone
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2020-03-11 09:54
It's hard to say because it varies and also my experience (e.g. with Music Center AKA Pisoni) is very different than yours. I use almost only Music Center saxophone pads and I've tried all the pads you mentioned and quite a few others.
I use and recommend mostly synthetic pads now (for clarinets) because I'm vegan and I found they are at least as good or better than non-synthetic pads.
I use cork pads sometimes, don't particularly like them personally, but would install them if anyone wants, or if just changing a few on a clarinet that already has them (not that popular here anyway).
Music Center now has synthetic pads which I use sometimes but I use mostly Valentino Masters (and some Omni pads which I have left too).
Music Center also make imitation leather pads (some type of microfiber) but they are only special order and a lot more expensive. IMO they are just better than leather pads, but they are so unpopular (because of price and lack of advertisement I guess) that the only supplier (other than MC themselves) who used to sell them just donated them...
Unfortunately these would still have wool felt but I'm trying to limit use of animal products as much as I can. They (and others) make pads of synthetic felt too, but I never like them... in contrast to bumper and linkage materials, where I stopped using wool felt because synthetic felt is much better.
The problem with springs is they are not always consistent. I've never had any real problems with the springs from Music Center and several other sources. It's sort of "known" that current blued steel springs are not as good and less consistent than decades ago... but it's very rare that I have an issue with one.
Supposedly the best stainless springs are from Kraus, which are supposed to have the same feel as blued steel springs (for the same diameter/thickness). They are some of the best springs I've used but even these are not 100% consistent and don't always have that good of a feel. I had to re-install or use a new spring a few times, either from cracking or because of feel.
I've heard good things about the stainless steel springs from J.L. Smith but haven't tried them yet.
>> How well the pad seals is just as important as the pad type. <<
It's far more important.
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Author: Kalashnikirby
Date: 2020-03-11 13:13
Thanks for your assessments!
As I’ve pointed out, it‘s not about defining the absolute best Pad, as that would simply be impossible, but there certainly are ones that people like better.
And of course, pad sealing is most important. I’m always astounded just how sloppy some manufacturers pad their clarinets and hope for them to „wear in“ eventually. Nothing beats an even, well set pad, whatever material it’s made of.
Pisonis aren’t BAD, but their price/performance could be better, IMHO. On BC, MusicMedic cleary beat them (not by a long shot, that is to say!)
Now what I want to know is, have you been satisfied with Pisoni‘s flat springs, too? I’ve no issues with their needle springs!
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2020-03-11 14:10
>> Pisonis aren’t BAD, but their price/performance could be better, IMHO. On BC, MusicMedic cleary beat them (not by a long shot, that is to say!) <<
I disagree. I've tried five models of Music Center saxophone pads and quite a few clarinet/bassoon models too (excluding synthetic clarinet pads, which I've also tried). I stock Music Center pads because I haven't found pads that are as good for a lower price. I've tried most pads from Music Medic too. I guess some difference could be if you need to have a stock vs. just ordering some pads occasionally. I also test pads using a plastic "tone hole" on a magnehelic for porosity and consistency (not all of them... obviously).
>> Now what I want to know is, have you been satisfied with Pisoni‘s flat springs, too? I’ve no issues with their needle springs! <<
Oh I didn't notice you asked specifically about flat springs. I'm not sure if I actually got any from Music Center. Some of the flat springs I have are probably from them (guessing because they are from suppliers who stock mostly their products) and they were mostly fine.
Re the Kraus stainless springs, I was referring to both needle and flat springs.
Post Edited (2020-03-12 09:02)
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Author: Kalashnikirby
Date: 2020-03-11 17:26
I should also clarify: I stock that stuff only for personal uses/ work on friend‘s horns, so Musiccenter as a store offers pretty poor conditions. But I got a nice supplier from Germany, although his „repetoire“ is limited.
So if I want to get a good set of pads in differing sites as it’s necessary for most low clarinets, I’m better off with MusicMedic.
Pisoni leather is still really solid, no doubt, but right now, I prefer Kangaroo, which might change in the future, though...
Pisoni offers the best cork pads and lowest price on these, IME. So there’s that.
Fun Fact. Buffet almost definitely uses Pisoni leather pads. In a vid, you can see the workers using pads from a box labelled „DCL...“something.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2020-03-12 09:13
>> Fun Fact. Buffet almost definitely uses Pisoni leather pads. In a vid, you can see the workers using pads from a box labelled „DCL...“something. <<
Very likely, however... Buffet bass clarinets that I've replaced pads on mostly didn't have Music Center pads, but Chanu pads (IIRC). Some have pads marked Buffet which could be made by anyone for them.
One nice feature of some cl/bcl/bassoon pads (the ones I use) from Music Center is they have a thin plastic layer between the skin and felt. I don't remember seeing that on any pad I've removed from a Buffet bcl, but this might have changed.
Music Center makes Gortex pads so those are probably made by them.
They could also be the regular clarinet pads marked Buffet (if you order many like a clarinet company or large supplier they would write anything you want on the back), except bladder pads on some Buffet clarinets tend to last very little time now and I've never seen that even with the most basic Music Center pads. It's possible Buffet has them made for them to specs so they are different from any available model.
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Author: dorjepismo ★2017
Date: 2020-03-13 00:04
Totally with Paul on the QRPs. Been playing them over a year with no problems, and am extremely pleased with the sound. Recently had all the keys off the Bb for cleaning and oiling, and there's no visible wear on the pads. Cost is a function of price and time, and satisfaction is a function of cost and result.
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Author: Kalashnikirby
Date: 2020-04-12 00:36
Some reevaluation on that topic from my side:
I'll have to admit that Pisoni Pads are among the best. I've ordered a bunch of different (Sax + regular clarinet sizes, different leather tipes) from "claripad" (subsidiary of Foag clarinets) and while the leather they use is nice, Pisoni Pads have the most stable backing and thus the most even surface. Sure, you can make a soft pad and that'll "sink" into the tonehole and thus seal easily, but the harder and more even it is, the longer it'll last. So I guess Pisoni's Goretex pads are really an excellent solution.
Now I really need your guys help: Where do they sell DECENT springs?
I still haven't found really satisfactory needle springs, Pisoni's are ok, but not great; some bought from Dawkes are almost inacceptable and some other brand I forgot about (perhaps MusicMedic) didn't shine either.
Even worse with flat springs, there's almost only crap from what I've tried so far. Phosphor Bronze springs are mediocre at best.
How about Feree's? I've read one or two positive things about them, but perhaps someone on this board can help. Yeah, I wish I could order from Kraus, but they don't sell to hobbyists like me!
Post Edited (2020-04-12 00:43)
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2020-04-12 08:09
>> Where do they sell DECENT springs? <<
IME the springs from Ferree's are not better than any of the other places you mentioned. I think Music Medic has a different source (not sure), but at least some of the suppliers get their springs from the same couple of sources.
Maybe try J.L. Smith stainless springs. I've heard conflicting opinions about how similar they are to Kraus springs (they are definitely not the same)... but reports generally say they are good.
>> Phosphor Bronze springs are mediocre at best. <<
Don't bother with these.
>> I'll have to admit that Pisoni Pads are among the best. <<
:)
>> I guess Pisoni's Goretex pads are really an excellent solution. <<
I don't particularly like those. They're fine, but they are basically the same as bladder pads except with the more durable "skin" and they are about six times more expensive. If I want something more durable I use synthetic pads now, and with their better support near the edge, the advantage of stepped pads (which only matters sometimes anyway) is smaller than (e.g.) non-stepped leather pads.
I only use them when someone specifically wants them (which happened very few times in the last decade or so).
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2020-04-13 19:46
Pads have come a long way in recent years. I'm happy with the Valentino green back pads (Masters). Also like cork pads from JL Smith. These cork pads are just a tad bit softer in recent years.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tzocW30ecAg
This is kind of cool to get the repair book and basic tools to repad a clarinet.
Sure the green back pads might be better pads and worse as well. I go more for the feel and the sound. I don't usually like leather pads because they can sometimes be soft and the sound is sometimes deadened. This is why I kinda like cork pads on the upper joint. The cork pads are harder and for me this feels better when pressing down some of the keys. Also the sound is more pleasing to me. I like the green back pads on the lower joint. They seem to last a very long time. They are pretty firm, some sort of synthetic material, easy to set without leaks. A lot easier than setting up cork pads. Leather pads do seal well and for me and for a repairman to get the job done faster and with good results.
Some pads can cost double compared to the green back pads. I just don't see the need. But if you want to spend double the cost and more for each pad, try not to buy soft pads. Needless to say pads are now more of a personal choice.
So which pads are best? It's again the sound and feel of your horn, based more on the mouthpiece, reeds, and even the barrels. If you have a bright sound maybe leather pads are best.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
Post Edited (2020-04-13 19:59)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2020-04-13 20:49
Hey Bob,
I am sure that was a typo. The Valentino Green Back pads (soft foam throughout) are NOT the Valentino Masters (three different discrete layers of different densities of foam). The Masters pads are far far far superior to the Green Backs in every way, most importantly in their firmness and their retention of a flat surface once seated (they compare to cork in how they seal and yet are less "clacky").
.............Paul Aviles
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2020-04-14 02:15
Yes a mistake. Thanks Paul!
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2020-04-14 09:26
Yes, unclear from Bob's post if you mean Greenback or Masters. Those are two different models of pads.
>> Valentino green back pads (Masters). <<
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Author: Kalashnikirby
Date: 2020-04-14 21:07
Bob,
Did you know I'm selling my RC in favor of a Yamaha CS ??
Anyways, I've finished repadding that instrument with cork pads for the upper joint with exception of the ring key pads, as I feel it's better for them to have some give. Pretty sure Chris P posted that tip once.
To get the best results (also copied from Chris P) is to carefully grind the cork pads with 1000, then 2500 grit sandpaper - or thats at least what I use. Be careful not to apply too much force, or the pads eveness gets messed up.
This will be my favorite forever and I've even tried a clarinet with Goretex pads, but the feel is simply unique, plus the quality Pisoni is able to deliver is outstanding - with the exception that the surface has to be finished first, but that's something no manufacturer seems to get right...
However, I'm still having a hard time telling how that affects the sound. The previous Prestini Hermes Single bladder pads (total crap btw) didn't sound better or worse, except for the loose fishkin making an unbearable hissing noise at times.
Re springs: I found that one can buy springs from Foag clarinets, so I'm sure my little flat spring issue is going to be resolved! Needle springs... I don't know. I've ordered some 1.4310 (301) stainless steel spring wire just to see how it performs compared to the traditional blued steel spring.
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