 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Chris Sereque
Date: 2020-03-06 01:24
Does anyone have a good source of quality clarinet mouthpiece blanks? Gone are the good ol’ days when you could order just a few. Playnick.com has a 100 piece minimum, way too many for my needs.
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2020-03-06 03:35
Brad Behn has CNC machinery to make his own blanks, and Clark Fobes and Doug McClune are having Wesley Rice make their professional level mouthpieces. Weiner Music still sells American (Babbitt?) blanks in small quantities. Playnick's competitor J. Gleichweit seems to be making their own blanks, but I'm not sure they're selling them. Walter Grabner is exploring new materials and 3D printing of mouthpieces.
Weiner: https://www.weinermusic.com.
Wesley Rice: https://www.clarinet-repairs.com.
Gleichweit: https://www.gleichweit-mundstuecke.com
In Germany, Leitner and Kraus often works with AW (Alexander Willscher) to produce mouthpiece designs, and just last year, Leitner and K told me that I could buy a very small quantity (or even just one) of the special water resistant wood (Zelltec and Linea Verde) mouthpiece blanks they produce. I don't know the policy for their rubber blanks.
L & K https://www.leitner-kraus.de.
Hawkins and Backun are also exploring some different materials for mouthpieces to expand their new Vocalise line, including a transparent synthetic that Hawkins says can duplicate the tonal properties of crystal glass but can be worked to close tolerances to get quality control usually missing in glass mouthpieces. I don't know if they plan to sell the blanks for these. That model is already out and is called the CG Vocalise (designed with Corrado Giuffredi and his students in mind).
Post Edited (2020-03-06 21:06)
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2020-03-06 04:46
seabreeze,
I really don't want to disagree with the information that you provided above, however, my research produced slightly different results.
1. JJ Babbitt does make the blank for the Fobes Nova with the CF+ facing.
2. Wesley Rice make the San Francisco blanks for Fobes.
3. Walter Grabner does not directly make his own blanks. His blanks are exclusively being made by a company called "Fast Radius". https://www.fastradius.com/news/clarinetxpress_release/
4. Weiner Music does indeed sell blanks, however, only in Eb and Bass. https://shop.weinermusic.com/Clarinet-Mouthpiece-Blanks/products/1267/
5. Brad Behn does have an extensive CNC machinery complex for creating "his own blanks" for his Sono and Epic line of mouthpieces. He has, however, recently formed a subsidiary company to produce an "in house" line of clarinet mouthpieces which he calls the Prescott line. Brad has assured me that the Prescott is a completely finished, ready to play mouthpiece. However, he has also informed me that his newly formed subsidiary company can produce clarinet mouthpiece blanks to anyone's specific design parameters. https://www.epic-cnc.com/
Edited to correct and add new information about Brad's new company.
Post Edited (2020-03-16 01:34)
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2020-03-06 06:13
Thanks for the added nuances, Dan. Doesn't Wesley Rice make the blank for the Fobes 10K (which is different from the San Francisco). I didn't know about the Fast Radius company that Grabner is using. Do they make his barrels as well?
Post Edited (2020-03-06 20:01)
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2020-03-06 06:52
You can try me! I own my own molds!
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2020-03-06 08:49
seabreeze, per Ken Jarczyk's statement on this BB, 2016-06-29, "The 10K "blank" is Manufactured for Clark by Wes Rice, to Clark's specifications, made from German Hard-Rubber bar stock."
On Walter's website, he states that his new Hi-Tech barrels are made of a "similar material" and are made specifically for R13 bore style clarinets. I've emailed him for clarifications. http://www.clarinetxpress.com/barrels
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Author: Daniel Frazelle
Date: 2020-03-06 08:50
Some clarification is in order:
Rice Clarinet Works makes the 10K mouthpieces for Clark Forbes. To the best of my knowledge, the traditional San Francisco line is unsold Zinner blank inventory. I’m not even sure if he has much of these left.
The Fobes Nova and Debut lines have always been Babbitt manufactured (I believe), and nothing has changed in that regard.
Walter Grabner’s mouthpieces are not CNC machines, but rather 3D printed. The process is entirely different. In fact, the hardness of the material most likely makes it unsuitable as a “blank,” per se. I would imagine they are also making his barrels, since they are also 3D printed.
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2020-03-06 10:21
Hello everyone,
I just heard via email from Clark W Fobes and Walter Grabner.
IMO, Clark was extremely upset at all the "disinformation" on the BB. To set the record straight: 1) Wesley Rice makes the 10k mouthpiece "blank", according to Clark's design, and is then hand finished by Clark himself. (Per Clark, Wesley had never made a clarinet mouthpiece before. Clark taught him everything.); 2) Wesley Rice has nothing to do with the San Francisco clarinet mouthpieces; 3) Clark's San Francisco clarinet mouthpieces are created from customized ZINNER blanks which are not available to anyone else. They are then further hand customized.
Walter's mouthpieces, barrels, and bells are made of the same material.
So...
1) Daniel Frazelle's posting is not entirely correct. Wesley makes the 10K mouthpiece blank, not the finished mouthpiece.
2. Ken Jarczyk's statement in 2016 about the 10K was entirely correct.
3. I was totally wrong in stating Clark's San Francisco blanks were made by Wesley Rice. (I have no idea where I heard or read that information.) I apologize.
Hopefully, now, I have everything correct and have given Clark the credit that is properly due to him.
Post Edited (2020-03-06 23:20)
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Author: Mojo
Date: 2020-03-06 18:10
You can get Babbitt blanks in small quantities via whole seller American Way Marketing. But you need to fill out a form to become one of their retailers.
MojoMP.com
Mojo Mouthpiece Work LLC
MojoMouthpieceWork@yahoo.com
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2020-03-06 20:23
Yes, thanks Daniel for the insight. 3D printing and new materials will be jolting us all out of the old ways of thinking about mouthpieces. Ryan Pereira is also trying 3D printing of mouthpieces and barrels. With 3D printing, the "blank" in "mouthpiece blank" is like the "horseless" in "horseless carriage." With the automobile, who needs a horse? With the 3D print, who needs a blank? Of course, there will always be ranchers who understandably love horses and drive cars too.
Post Edited (2020-03-06 21:12)
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2020-03-06 23:52
seabreeze, yes, the products produced by 3D printing can be entirely different "animals" (IMO).
Post Edited (2020-03-16 01:40)
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2020-03-07 07:36
Chris,
to learn more about the clarinet mouthpiece blanks that Brad Behn produces, please click on the link below:
https://www.epic-cnc.com/mouthpiece-blanks
Please note: The blanks are not available for purchase online and those that are interested should contact Brad directly.
Post Edited (2020-03-07 21:25)
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Author: Grabnerwg
Date: 2020-03-08 18:40
Just to clear up some misconceptions.
I do 100 % of the design work on my mouthpiece blanks. I use a CAD program called Fusion360.
The blanks are printed by an additive manufacturing service bureau. I was very lucky to find a motivated company here in Chicago.
After I receive the blanks, quite a lot of hand finishing is required, some of it very similar to what I used to do with the Zinner blanks.
Walter Grabner
www.clarinetxpress.com
847-266-8644
Post Edited (2020-03-15 17:00)
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2020-03-08 20:08
Thanks Walter for helping us consumers to stumble through an understanding of the changing world of clarinet mouthpiece design and manufacture. So, 1) you do use a CNC machine for the design work; 2) you have the production of the basic "blanks" (partially finished mouthpieces) done by an additive 3D printing process; 3) the material on these semi-finished pieces is definitely not too hard to be hand finished and often needs some hand work to reach optimal performance, 4) this may be the shape of things to come, and there will be lots more to see.
Maybe now we are not bumping our heads quite as hard in an effort to comprehend these changes.
Post Edited (2020-03-08 22:59)
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Author: Daniel Frazelle
Date: 2020-03-08 20:59
Walter, can you be more specific about the handwork you do? The mouthpieces I trialed from you look exactly the same as the photo you posted, except for the logo color and cork. Every surface I can see on my mouthpiece has the same swirly, arched 3D-printed look, except for the tip rail, side walls and facing. The side walls and facing don't look hand-finished, but then again I don't know what this material looks like after you start "sanding" or cutting into it.
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Author: Mojo
Date: 2020-03-09 17:13
Also Walter, are you using Fusion360 CAD software, not Focus360?
MojoMP.com
Mojo Mouthpiece Work LLC
MojoMouthpieceWork@yahoo.com
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Author: rtaylor
Date: 2020-03-09 21:53
I'd be interested if anyone has information on suppliers of German style mouthpiece blanks. The tenon is longer for those types and the chamber is usually 14.8 - 15 in diameter.
Any information would be appreciated
Cheers
Robert
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Author: Grabnerwg
Date: 2020-03-10 23:08
Post deleted
Walter Grabner
www.clarinetxpress.com
847-266-8644
Post Edited (2020-03-15 17:03)
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Author: Daniel Frazelle
Date: 2020-03-11 00:22
Dan, I'll respond separately to you from my follow-up with Walter. I can see why you would say that based on how I wrote it. What I mean is, in terms of appearances the entire mouthpiece does not look hand finished, except for maybe the tip rail which doesn't have a repeating pattern. it's hard to say because it's so small. Now, the rest of the mouthpiece has two surface characteristics (to me). The outside and baffle have sort of a swirly pattern, but the facing and the side walls have a distinct, longitudinal pattern. I plan to post pictures in my next comment so that you can see what I mean.
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Author: Daniel Frazelle
Date: 2020-03-11 00:53
Walter, I'll state upfront that this is going to seem rather antagonistic, but I don't mean it to be. I'm genuinely confused and would like clarification, especially after the responses you just gave. Plus, you're being very kind to, as you say, answer any question.
First off, I don't care about the appearance of the finish on the mouthpieces. The reason I mentioned it is that you posted a photo with this as part of your reply:
"After I receive the blanks, quite a lot of hand finishing is required, some of it very similar to what I used to do with the Zinner blanks. The attached picture is what the blanks look like when I receive them back."
I took this to mean that you were posting the photo to show how "rough" these were compared to the final product. You didn't post a picture of the facings, so I'm not sure what value the photo holds if you now acknowledge that the exterior looks largely the same.
So, here are some photos I took of the other side of the mouthpiece:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1SncN1VFuJOHGTFbfBNoaZK0oqMEyAMxg
Are we to understand, then, that you hand finish the surfaces seen in these photos? And as such, they've been altered in a way that affects how the mouthpiece plays, but doesn't affect the surface finish appearance? If I sand into your mouthpiece (or do something else!), will it retain these same longitudinal lines and swirled patterns? Are the horizontal lines across the facing the RESULT of hand-finishing?
If the answer is yes to all of this (or more complex), then that's fascinating to me and speaks to the totally different product we're dealing with. I just have a hard time believing it without hearing more from you.
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Author: Grabnerwg
Date: 2020-03-11 04:48
Post deleted
Walter Grabner
www.clarinetxpress.com
847-266-8644
Post Edited (2020-03-15 17:02)
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Author: Daniel Frazelle
Date: 2020-03-11 07:22
I tried to get the best pictures I could in sunlight, but the side walls definitely have prominent ridges. The entirety of the table and rails also have these ridges. I’m not sure what you’re seeing via the photos, but no part of the baffle looks different than the rest, i.e. they have that circular pattern.
I’m not saying that this is definitive proof that these parts aren’t hand-finished. But I’ve not heard an acceptable answer from Walter yet about how they could look this pristinely uniform and be, by any reasonable standard “hand-finished.” Again, if my instincts are wrong, I’d love to learn how.
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Author: Grabnerwg
Date: 2020-03-11 16:42
Post deleted
Walter Grabner
www.clarinetxpress.com
847-266-8644
Post Edited (2020-03-15 16:27)
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Author: Daniel Frazelle
Date: 2020-03-11 17:50
Walter, from my perspective, all you’ve done is answer the question that I first asked obliquely and then asked very directly. I’ve been pretty consistent throughout to include caveats that without knowing more about how the material “works” I couldn’t say this or that for sure. You say I “don’t understand.” Yeah, that was the point of my questions, and you’ve answered a big part of that.
I would add that you can say that the whole question is moot, but this entire conversation was set off by you jumping in to specifically mention the handwork that is required. I don’t understand why following up on that was so out of bounds.
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Author: JTJC
Date: 2020-03-11 20:49
Under a separate thread ‘Walter Grabner's new Hi-Tech material’, I noted the apparent lack of hand finishing on the 5 samples of Walter’s new mouthpieces that I’d seen at Howarth in London. My assumption was that the lack of any disturbance to the pattern covering the lay (in particular) indicated it hadn’t been adjusted by the traditional methods of abrasive paper etc. It seems to me that if the surface of these mouthpieces was touched in any way it was bound to affect the surface pattern as the pattern appears very regular and delicate. I also noted that the apparent lack of hand finishing suggested machining was producing results to the required accuracy and finish. Walter’s response to the former point was :
“In terms of finishing the facing curve, that is another matter. I do only enough hand finishing to get the response and tone that I want. No more, no less. The easiest way to make mediocre mouthpieces is to hand finish too much and try to make every single mouthpiece the same.”
I would think traditional methods of hand finishing are bound to leave marks on the type of finish on these mouthpieces. That is an assumption. The material might be like a stick of seaside rock, slice a bit off and it looks exactly the same. However, we don’t know what type of techniques Walter is using to adjust these mouthpieces. For example, very localised heat, cold or pressure might be applied and these might not necessarily affect the surface texture/pattern. This is a new material most, if not all of us are unfamiliar with so few will know it’s properties or how it might be manipulated/adjusted. However, on at least one of the mouthpieces I saw the surface pattern was disturbed on part of one rail. I took that to be some evidence of more traditional adjustment, but I could be wrong.
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2020-03-11 21:08
Walter,
I just received a personal email from someone who bought one of your high end new mouthpieces. This person assured me that the mouthpiece DOES NOT LEAK AIR AT THE RAILS.
So, please folks, don't make the mistake I did. Let's not judge any mouthpiece simply by how it looks.
Post Edited (2020-03-16 02:12)
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Author: Chris Sereque
Date: 2020-03-11 21:56
Thanks for the tip on Epic! I just emailed them. Interesting that their blanks have the three ligature lines just like original Charles Cheds.
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Author: gwie
Date: 2020-03-13 12:07
Just tested the three Prescott models from Brad Behn's Epic-CNC, which he introduced at TMEA last month. I usually play on his Epic HCV with synthetics and his older Vintage model with cane.
I've been waiting quite some time for a mouthpiece that plays like his personal high-end work that doesn't cost as much. While his Zinner line was excellent, $250 was still steep for my high school students. Now, these are just phenomenal, especially given his discounts for teachers, schools, and music shops. They're beautifully-finished, have the characteristic response and resonance that are the hallmark of Brad's work, and are a testament to the superior quality that his production line is capable of.
The closed facing model "pings" beautifully. The open facing model is very consistent through all the registers and you can play super loud without distorting the sound. The medium facing is an excellent balance in between and is generally what I think I would recommend to my students, and what I would use--and I would be perfectly happy playing on this medium facing Prescott for everything, it really is that good!
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2020-03-13 19:51
gwie,
I knew about the discount for music shops, but not for teachers and schools.
Did Brad mention to you that his $159 Prescott is on sale for $129 till the end of May? I also learned that you can actually purchase one for $79.50 if you are an online subscriber to his website and use the coupon code 50PRESCOTT at check out.
After your great review, I think I'll get one for myself at the cheapest price because I am a subscriber to his website.
Thanks for the review!
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Author: claralot
Date: 2020-03-13 22:35
Hi gwie,
I use a Sono medium facing and I'm curious how it compares to the Prescott.
Are you able to compare the Prescott to the Sono?
If so, what are the differences if any?
....Mike
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Author: JTJC
Date: 2020-03-14 17:33
The Prescott and another I heard mentioned, the Hero, don’t seem to be on the Behn website yet, or am I missing something?
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Author: paulyb
Date: 2020-03-14 19:26
Here is the website:
https://www.epic-cnc.com/
"EPIC CNC is a product-development and CNC-machining facility specializing in “concept-to-completion” services. A subsidiary of BEHN, LLC, we were created for the purpose of manufacturing all BEHN clarinet products. From our expertise in acoustics, single reed mouthpiece manufacturing, and the music industry, our knowledge can help you achieve your dreams. Our in-house mouthpiece brand, PRESCOTT, offers clarinet and saxophone mouthpieces designed and built from the ground-up at an affordable price."
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Author: JTJC
Date: 2020-03-15 01:57
So Epic CNC/Prescott appears to be the brand line for the budget Behn mouthpieces. I was wondering when and how Behn was going to replace the Zinner-based products.
Interesting photos. On one you can see curved/arced lines going across the table of the mouthpiece. You see similar markings on a Vandoren. On a Vandoren, I believe they are caused by a disk cutter that cuts the lays. However, the Prescott is CNCed so the lay isn’t cut by disc. Presumably, the markings on the Prescott are a design choice.
Another photo shows a dial gauge touching a mouthpiece table. The reading on the gauge is negative (-3, 000s of an inch?). That suggests they’ve built concavity into the table, or whoever set up the photo just didn’t know what should be there.
It’s a good price, roughly comparable to D’Addario Evolution or Backun offerings. What you’d expect really. Would anyone now sell a CNC mouthpiece for less, even if they are much cheaper to produce than traditional ones (assuming there’s no hand finishing etc, just from machine to box)?
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2020-03-15 04:01
"Another photo shows a dial gauge touching a mouthpiece table. The reading on the gauge is negative (-3, 000s of an inch?). That suggests they’ve built concavity into the table, or whoever set up the photo just didn’t know what should be there."
Actually, JTJC, the gauge is on the mouthpiece TIP RAIL.
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Author: JohnP
Date: 2020-03-15 12:41
Look again Dan, there are two photos, one with the gauge touching the tip rail, one with the gauge touching the table,
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2020-03-15 23:50
Chris Sereque
After all of this, this huge thread, I have finished blanks. You didn't contact me yet!
The Babbitt blanks will require a lot of handwork. Mine won't, so there is less, often no handwork needed.
Babbitt is a good company. Walter makes some nice mouthpieces, my molds cost a lot of money and the rubber I use shrinks about 3 percent so your orders are always accurate. You have have to test 10 to 20 mouthpieces before you find a decent Vandoren. Their rubber and assorted plastic shrinks too much plus the tables are not flat.
As for tools you can buy from me or Babbitt. I use Babbitt glass, but my own feeler gauges. They send 4 or 5 gauges. I will send a complete set to read every line on the Babbitt gauge.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2020-03-16 02:24
JohnP,
You're right! I simply stopped at the first picture and didn't scroll down to the one directly below it. Sorry about that! From my perspective, there must be a slight dip. Otherwise, why would they purposely include a picture with a depth meter measuring the table? It can't be for flatness because a professional flat edge could easily tell if the table were not flat. Very interesting...
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2020-03-16 08:08
I just heard from Brad concerning the depth meter on the table of his new Prescott mouthpieces.
The answer is yes, Brad does machine a carefully implemented concavity in his mouthpieces.
He wouldn't specify the depth, however, I'm pretty sure Vandoren and D'Addario mouthpieces don't have this added advantage.
I wish they would give more spec information on the new website.
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Author: JTJC
Date: 2020-03-16 20:32
I think we have the depth of the concavity from the photo. The gauge was in about the right place. I saw ‘was’ because I can’t see that photo now. But at least we know the tip opening from the other photo, which is still there. All we need now is the length of the lay. More photos with gauges please.
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2020-03-16 21:31
JTJC,
Both photos showing the depth meter are here: https://www.epic-cnc.com/mouthpiece-blanks
I'm trying to interpret the tip opening measurement. Using the red scale, I come up with 0.06mm which, if true, is extremely close. However, Brad answered my email about the concavity and he said that the tables concavity allows for a more secure response, which does in fact create a perception of increased freedom and security.
From previous BB responses, if I remember correctly, table concavities actually allow the reed to vibrate more giving the player the perception that he or she is actually playing a larger tip opening.
So perhaps the 0.06mm tip opening actually feels to the player that the tip is actually more open than the actual measurement. At least, that is how I understand it.
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2020-03-16 21:56
Hi everyone,
I just got another email from Brad who saw my post above concerning the 0.06mm reading. He wants everyone to know that the "0" reading is actually set at "1"mm. So, the actual tip measurement reading is 1.06mm.
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2020-03-17 02:49
x
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2020-03-17 03:18
Attachment: IMG_0025.jpg (393k)
I'll keep this short. Look at the picture and you will see dull and shinny spots. I took a couple of swipes using this mouthpiece with 2000 wet/dry sandpaper. The dull area is where the sandpaper made its mark, the shinny area is what is called the French Curve. No this is NOT my mouthpiece models. Mine are flat. Rails are also way too wide causing a dark dead sound sometimes. We can't allow for dead overtones we need some warmth and projection.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
Post Edited (2020-03-17 03:23)
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