 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: ruben
Date: 2020-02-11 00:18
In Europe, many-though not all- orchestral musicians are Civil Servants. This is not the case in Britain, but Britain is no longer in Europe! In the US, if I have understood correctly, orchestral musicians can go on as long as they like provided they get the job done. There exist arguments in favor of either option. Your thoughts on the matter, ladies and gentlemen?
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: kdk
Date: 2020-02-11 00:51
65 is too young for a musician to be *forced* to retire from a salaried position. There are certainly some musicians who have slowed physically at that age or lost interest in maintaining their skill level and can't keep up as ensemble performers, but there are many who are still in excellent form well into their 70s and even 80s.
I don't remember anyone ever suggesting a mandatory retirement age for conductors. Certainly not 65.
Karl
Post Edited (2020-02-11 00:52)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2020-02-11 01:33
I think the idea an age limit (or term limit) revolves around some concept of "fairness."
As much as it can be painful to see brilliant young (or just younger) musicians have to find other ways to make a living because Stanley Drucker remained principal in the New York Philharmonic until he was 80 (his choice to retire AND he still plays great!), we ALL benefited from Stanley Drucker's musicianship and unparalleled skill ALL those years.
Karajan stood at the podium of the Berlin Philharmonic LITERALLY until his body stopped moving and his baton fell out of his hand (that was a combination of many factors including respect, fear, the flow of money still dependent on his presence, etc. etc.).
So where do you draw the line? There cannot be a line. it must remain on a case by case basis. If the person in the position is producing at (or beyond) the requirements of the job there is no reason to look for someone else.
I go back to Berlin for an extreme example of a line. Years before Karajan "stopped moving," he was nearly forced out by his own orchestra because the line for them was hiring a woman (Sabine Meyer). I think we've learned a few things since then..........I hope.
...............Paul Aviles
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2020-02-11 01:33
Not at all. If they can play such as Drucker and Eddie Palanker. let them stay until THEY want to retire, on their terms. They were playing into their 80's.
A very fine player with the Chicago Sym is a friend, John Bruce Yeh. He just celebrated his 40th year and he looks like he's 30 years old! He was just 60 years old. I'd say he's good for another 20
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2020-02-11 01:37
Iggie Gennusa was in his 60's when the New York Met offered him a job. He turned it down. I guess if you are that good and enjoy music why not play as long as you can.
Marcellus once said after going blind from diabetes he toyed with staying in the orchestra and memorizing the music so he could still play!
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
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Author: Tom H
Date: 2020-02-11 07:39
I haven't played orchestrally since 1988, but have played in one professional band for 34 years and Principal for 22. At age 65 I don't think I've really slowed down. Perhaps (?) my tonguing a tad. I believe my hearing is as good as ever. My wife has said for 20 years it's not so good.....
Yes, each person must be judged separately.
The Most Advanced Clarinet Book--
tomheimer.ampbk.com/ Sheet Music Plus item A0.1001315, Musicnotes product no. MB0000649.
Boreal Ballad for unaccompanied clarinet-Sheet Music Plus item A0.1001314.
Musicnotes product no. MNO287475
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Author: ruben
Date: 2020-02-11 11:03
One big argument is that it's time to give somebody younger a chance, even if you're still at the top of your game. If there are to be new buds, the old leaves have to fall.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: ruben
Date: 2020-02-11 13:54
Military bands seem to have an even earlier mandatory retirment age than European orchestras. If you look at US Marine Band videos on Youtube, nobody seems to be past the age of 50!
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2020-02-11 16:09
Hi Ruben — if there’s a mandatory band retirement age I can’t find it. Marine retirement is 62.
Once you’ve made your 20 years of service and you have your full retirement, why wouldn’t you pursue other opportunities?
James
Gnothi Seauton
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2020-02-11 18:29
I don't know of any orchestra in America that has mandated retirement at any age these days. I retired from the Baltimore Symphony after 50 years at age 74. I would have played longer if it wasn't for a physicial problem that was making it more difficult for me to keep my standard. I have friends still paying in their late 60s and early 70s today.
ESP eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: sax panther
Date: 2020-02-11 20:20
when I played in the orchestra at university you had to reaudition every year, and if someone else did a better audition than you, you were out. Do professional orchestras have anything similar, or if you get the job is it yours until you choose to move on?
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2020-02-11 20:50
There are some differences between the US and Europe. In the United States orchestral jobs are like any other "trade work" where there is a trade union. We here in the States are still fairly proud of the American Federation of Musicians which helps fight for fair wages and benefits (a real fight with many orchestral managements unfortunately).
But think about this as a career (one where there are VERY few living wage paying positions, unlike say carpenter, plumber, electrician, etc.). If you have to re-audition every year (or some designated time frame) than you have no security and consequently no way to negotiate living in a community like a normal person. What works for Interlochen or Peabody is not practical for adults settling down to live their lives as professional musicians.
................Paul Aviles
Post Edited (2020-02-11 20:56)
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Author: JAS
Date: 2020-02-11 21:28
Paul Aviles wrote:
> There are some differences between the US and Europe. In the
> United States orchestral jobs are like any other "trade work"
> where there is a trade union. We here in the States are still
> fairly proud of the American Federation of Musicians which
> helps fight for fair wages and benefits (a real fight with many
> orchestral managements unfortunately).
Not to mention the artistic importance of the union, which serves as a counterweight to the power of orchestral management. Imagine what the orchestras in Minnesota, Detroit, Louisville and Philadelphia would be if their management had been allowed to act without artistic accountability.
The AFM makes it challenging to cut positions and salaries before all other avenues of reform are taken.
So if you see the union as an artistic liability? Be careful what you wish for.
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Author: kdk
Date: 2020-02-11 21:36
When I was in the Army Field Band, the Army's mandatory retirement age was 55. This was for all troops, not just bandsmen. It was possible for certain people to petition to have that waived, and a couple of the senior enlisted men in the band managed to stay a couple of years beyond 55. This was still during the Vietnam War - I left in 1972. The all-volunteer army has probably changed that.
But at the same time, the Philadelphia Orchestra had a relatively young mandatory retirement age as well, and I think it was set by Federal law. I don't remember the age - either 65 or 70, and I don't remember what Federal regs were involved, whether it was a standalone statute or connected somehow with collecting Social Security, but I clearly remember at least two musicians who were forced out of the orchestra under the mandate who were still perfectly capable players. The orchestra used to bring them back as subs on a regular basis but couldn't keep them under contract.
There has not been a mandatory retirement age in the Philadelphia Orchestra for many, many years.
Karl
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Author: Tom H
Date: 2020-02-11 22:34
Regarding retiring to give the younger folks a chance, I don't think it makes any difference with job openings in full time symphonies attracting like what, 100+ auditioners? What are your chances anyway?
The Most Advanced Clarinet Book--
tomheimer.ampbk.com/ Sheet Music Plus item A0.1001315, Musicnotes product no. MB0000649.
Boreal Ballad for unaccompanied clarinet-Sheet Music Plus item A0.1001314.
Musicnotes product no. MNO287475
Post Edited (2020-02-11 22:34)
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Author: blueclarinet
Date: 2020-02-12 07:01
I remember when William Kincaid, the Philadelphia Orchestra’s famous Principal Flute, had to retire at age 65, in the early 60s. He was still playing at his peak ability, and it was really a tragedy to lose him.
William C Sereque
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Author: ruben
Date: 2020-02-12 18:58
A few people have spoken of the issue of poor hearing which often crawls up on us when we're not getting any younger. What does this do to pitch perception? I've known people of rather advanced age that have started having intonation problems they had never had before (and not always realizing it..).
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: kdk
Date: 2020-02-12 19:34
Well, of course, that comes under the category of impaired performance level, and that would always be grounds for encouraging/forcing a retirement if it can't be corrected. There are a number of possible age-related impairments that could trigger a contractual dismissal or forced retirement proceeding. That's different from an arbitrary retirement age.
I had forgotten about Kincaid. There were others back in that period.
Karl
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Author: Philip Caron
Date: 2020-02-12 19:40
Hi Ruben. When great pianist Sviatoslav Richter reached his later years, he complained that his pitch perception had changed, and it was a problem. He'd always had perfect pitch, but gradually he was hearing pitches higher than they were, as much as a whole tone higher (if I'm recalling right.) He'd want to correct what he was playing to make his perceived pitch right. That forced him to sharply curtail his performing and led to depression.
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Author: ruben
Date: 2020-02-12 22:47
Hi Philip: Not only did Richter curtail his performances because of this issue. He stopped playing altogether. At the end of his career, the conductor Kurt Masur gave the wind players of the Orchestre National de France a hard time, accusing them of not being in tune. Actually it was Masur's hearing that distorted his pitch perception. He was already in the rather advanced stages of Parkinson's disease. I don't know if this effects one's pitch perception, but it's not impossible.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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