 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: EbClarinet
Date: 2020-02-11 02:52
Those of you that have a professional Bb clarinet tone quality, I need help. I've been told that the only way to get a professional tone quality is to get a Buffet. In junior high and high school, I had good tone quality for a teen. When I was in college, I had a good college level pedagogical tone quality only a few times. I don't know how to maintain this though. I don't know how to replicate my embouchure and the inside of my mouth to produce the tone quality that we all aspire to have. I've produced this good tone quality on my intermediate student model horn and I have GREAT tone quality on Bb Bass, C Clarinet and Eb Clarinet. I've been complimented by college peers and professionals. I plan on getting a professional horn and I have the best reeds, mouthpiece and ligature. one 1 please counsel me because I know it's the player and not the instrument. I've heard high school, college and professionals on Yamaha and Buffet and they've not had the best closed tone quality that all clarinetists are aspiring to have.
https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/mbtldsongministry/
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Author: Ken Lagace
Date: 2020-02-11 07:53
Don't listen to that drivel! The player makes the sound not the instrument. Any fine player will sound fine on any instrument, and I have heard many very poor sounding Buffet players.
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Author: bmcgar ★2017
Date: 2020-02-11 08:23
"...ALL clarinetists are aspiring to have"?
"...BEST reeds, mouthpiece, and ligature"?
I think that, if you'll do some reading on this BBD, you'll find that there are no "alls" and there are no "bests."
If you listen to several "world famous" clarinetists, you'll find that their sounds differ from each other's, sometimes to a striking degree.
If you look at the equipment they are playing, you'll find that they they don't all play the same clarinet, ligature, reeds, and so on.
There are no absolutes in the clarinet world. If someone tries to tell you what's best in equipment or what "everyone" aspires to in their playing, run the other way; they don't know what they're talking about.
B.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2020-02-11 08:36
As for production of a good sound I like to point out that there is a certain amount of air pressure needed within the oral cavity (balanced against embouchure energy, depending on your dynamic).
Try this (without your clarinet). Take a good breath and hold the air back inside your mouth, letting your cheeks puff out. Now push enough just to start feeling some stretching where your cheeks attach to your lower and upper jaw. That would be a good equivalence to where you need to be pushing air for a decent mezzo forte.
Now try that with your clarinet (and cheeks in a normal posture) and a nice full open "G." Remember your embouchure energy will be medium(ish) at a moderate volume and more so when you're at a lower volume (probably best practiced with long tone exercises that emphasize slow movement from lowest volume you can generate to loudest and back down again to nothing in one breath).
Anyway, should be a good start. Ask your teacher about this.
...................Paul Aviles
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2020-02-11 17:30
Buffet clarinets were pretty amazing in the 1960's. A few of the models are still pretty darn good. But I like Yamaha's. The CSVR line and I sold all of my Buffet's a few years ago, 8 sets. The Yamaha horns are very nice and there are several top players using these. Also there are the Selmer horns and a few other brands which sound good.
But here's the problem, How much will you pay? I'd much rather play of an inexpensive CSVR for $3000 or so. They've gone up in price, so maybe $4000? These horns play right out of the case and you only have to test 1 or 2, then play a concert that night. Then a Buffet R13 costs $5000 and more and you have to have it fixed before it plays! You may test 10 horns before one satisfies you. So you buy a Buffet and you have to have it repaired, because you really can't play a concert with it. Too scary, the horns leak, sometimes the notes need tuning, some dead notes, all sorts of issues.
Then you can spend over $10,000 on the better Buffets. But that won't give you the professional sound you are asking about. It comes with lots of practice, good schools and good teachers. For me it's hours and hours of practice which makes a professional sound. It's the combination of finding the right mouthpiece, sometimes a barrel helps, ligatures, good reeds, and the horn has to fit you.
You can probably get a set of Yamaha clarinets, an A and Bb clarinet and maybe a decent Eb clarinet for the cost of just one Buffet Tosca. I don't think there is much of a sound difference. In fact you may like the sound of a Yamaha better.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2020-02-11 17:35
I have to add this, tone quality is up to the player. His ears, brain, embouchure. We all hear differently. In fact players ideas of great sounds are often very different.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2020-02-11 18:24
I play a Selmer Bb and I think I get a pretty good sound. I know many professionals that play other brands all over the world. Of course it's the player that makes the sound and it involves so many aspects of your body. Embouchure, lips, tongue, throat, lungs etc but the most important equipment is the mouthpiece and reed combination. Getting the sound you want in what I call "your inner ear' and finding the match up that gives it to you. You say you get a great sound on Bass, C and Eb. If you do you're doing things right already.
Check out some of the articles on my website, see if some help.
ESP eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: Tom H
Date: 2020-02-18 00:09
A lot of good posts here, none of which I could argue with. As for the tone we all aspire to have, that is debatable. When I was in college the idea was to get the dark "German" tone--as opposed to the brighter British or French tone. I think finding the tone you want does depend a lot on equipment, as well as reeds & embouchure of course.
As for Buffets-- I got my first one in 11th grade (in 1971- cost: $265 U.S.). Right away I could hear how much better I sounded. Perhaps because I was in an "in between" stage en route from good H.S. player to potential pro.
Over the decades since, I have found that with a good reed I can sound pretty darn good on a bottom line student model. I have played some jazz on that, which went well. I wouldn't use anything but my Buffet for concert band/orchestral gigs.
The Most Advanced Clarinet Book--
tomheimer.ampbk.com/ Sheet Music Plus item A0.1001315, Musicnotes product no. MB0000649.
Boreal Ballad for unaccompanied clarinet-Sheet Music Plus item A0.1001314.
Musicnotes product no. MNO287475
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Author: cigleris
Date: 2020-02-18 01:01
Brighter British Tone??? There are not many British players currently and in the past that have played with a bright tone.
Peter Cigleris
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Author: Ken Lagace
Date: 2020-02-18 01:25
If my memory serves me, way, way back I remember the British sound as dark and hollow.
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Author: Tom H
Date: 2020-02-18 01:26
I took ensemble class in college with Gervas de Peyer, who I felt had a bright tone (and vibrato). Maybe he was an exception for Brits?
The Most Advanced Clarinet Book--
tomheimer.ampbk.com/ Sheet Music Plus item A0.1001315, Musicnotes product no. MB0000649.
Boreal Ballad for unaccompanied clarinet-Sheet Music Plus item A0.1001314.
Musicnotes product no. MNO287475
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Author: Jarmo Hyvakko
Date: 2020-02-18 15:57
I tested Yamahas in a concert hall the days when the "custom" models came in the 90s. My wife, who is very critical, listened me playing Weber, Brahms etc. And in every occasion picked the one that sounded better and recognized it to be my RC prestige (which i still play) But then i began to play the first bars of Debussy's Rhapsody. My wife commented: "to Debussy that Yamaha's sound suits better, because it's lighter and more transparent!"
Only that I was playing Buffet Prestige...
Jarmo Hyvakko, Principal Clarinet, Tampere Philharmonic, Finland
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Author: EbClarinet
Date: 2020-02-18 17:46
My question is do you have to get the collegiate pedagogical tone and then professional clarinet tone quality and then learn the bebop, swing and jazz clarinet tone quality?
Benny Goodman player classical clarinet b4 getting this tone quality and the 1st chair in a neighboring city could get that tone quality. What r they doing inside their mouth to get this tone quality? Is it the tongue level?
Thanks for bringing up the different tone qualities 2. I'm in the USA and that bright tone quality is called the best coast sound. I don't want that 1, I prefer the dark classical 1.
https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/mbtldsongministry/
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Author: kdk
Date: 2020-02-18 19:40
EbClarinet wrote:
> My question is do you have to get the collegiate pedagogical
> tone and then professional clarinet tone quality and then learn
> the bebop, swing and jazz clarinet tone quality?
Your whole premise shows so much misunderstanding that it's hard to know where to start.
First, there is no such thing as a "collegiate pedagogical tone." I have no idea what you have in your ear that fits that description. Three clarinet teachers with whom I'm personally familiar: if you study at Curtis with Ricardo Morales, you'll hear one kind of tone quality; if you had studied with Don Montanaro you'd have heard (and been expected to emulate) a very different sound concept; if you study with Sam Caviezel at Temple, you'll hear something different still. Those are only three well-known college/conservatory clarinet teachers (pedagogues) who are still working, but they are three I've heard a great deal of in person.
Second, I'm not sure what you have in mind when you lump bebop, swing and jazz clarinet tone together and use Goodman as an example. Did you ever hear Goodman play except on 30s to 50s recordings made with 30s to 50s recording techniques? Do you hear the same sound coming from recordings of Peanuts Hucko, Acker Bilk, Jimmy Hamilton, Jimmy Noone and Artie Shaw? I hope not!
>
> Benny Goodman player classical clarinet b4 getting this tone
> quality and the 1st chair in a neighboring city could get that
> tone quality. What r they doing inside their mouth to get this
> tone quality? Is it the tongue level?
Benny Goodman played classical music until the day he stopped playing. In fact, he didn't sound the same when he played with his band as he sounded when he played the Weber Quintet with a string quartet. I heard him do both one night at the Academy of Music in Philadelphia. Yes, it probably had to do with the shape he made inside his mouth, possibly with his tongue position and very likely with his choice of reeds for each style. But those are simple things to manipulate. You can try them yourself and see what effect they have. They are fairly superficial techniques that can be applied as needed. So is the growl Goodman often produced. and the glisses between notes. They were part of his style of big band jazz. I never heard Artie Shaw make those growling sounds. Jimmy Hamilton in the recordings I've heard didn't do much of any of that.
>
> Thanks for bringing up the different tone qualities 2. I'm in
> the USA and that bright tone quality is called the best coast
> sound. I don't want that 1, I prefer the dark classical 1.
>
Dark and bright are fighting words among many here and in the larger clarinet community. I'm not sure what either word means to you and you can't possibly know what anyone else means by them because the words have no clear meaning (any more than "collegiate pedagogical tone," "professional tone" or "jazz tone" do). Best to avoid them completely except maybe among close friends and acquaintances who all share a common understanding about bright and dark. Otherwise, you may as well use "schmet" and "frumal" - they will carry almost as much meaning in a general discussion of tone.
Your goal as a student should be to develop a tone quality that is first of all controlled, then resonant, well tuned and flexible enough to allow you to play fluidly and expressively. Your anatomy will influence how you sound and to an extent, so will your equipment. You can't really "replicate" (to go back to your initial post) someone else's oral shape because your natural anatomy is unique. But you will not sound exactly like anyone else no matter how hard you try. There is no "tone quality that we all aspire to have." You also will never hear yourself the way others hear you.
Concentrate on trying to produce the sound *you* want with a blowing technique that's comfortable, that allows you to play consistently. Once you develop the kind of control you need to do that, you'll be able to vary it to produce tone that *you* consider appropriate for different styles, guided by your ear, your imagination and whatever models you respect. The important thing is that, beyond the basics, what you produce is dependent on what you want to hear. Relax and listen to yourself.
And, to go all the way back to your first question, no, a Buffet isn't the God-given key to great tone quality. That's pure nonsense.
Karl
Post Edited (2020-02-18 21:21)
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Author: igalkov
Date: 2020-02-18 20:35
Recently I’ve tried three pairs of brand new Buffet Tosca’s (six horns in total), one pair of 10 years old RC Prestige, some Chinese Royal Global wooden clarinets and a Chinese plastic Moresky clarinet in a key of C. Hell NO, you don’t need Buffet for a good tone. You don’t even need a wooden horn for a good tone. Well, you still need a good horn for a good tone, but it’s NOT a Buffet these days. I’m so disappointed in Buffet… I’ll make a review of Moresky on YouTube soon
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2020-02-18 20:46
I would add that perhaps you are listening only to recordings. Listening to anything and everything you can get your hands on is great.......but.......the recorded sound of clarinet is quite different from what it sounds like in person. This is due to the fact that it is a stopped cyllinder (like an organ pipe) and sound eminates from all around the horn rather than just from the bell (like a trumpet).
So you should also attend a healthy amount of live concerts. Also, if your teacher does not normally play at all during a lesson, you should politley request a few minutes from her/him so that you can hear what a good sound on clarinet sounds like UP CLOSE. This is different than what it sounds like a distance (ten feet or more).
Finally there are some phenomenal jazz players that use a "classical sound" such as Eddie Daniels. And there was a fellow we spoke about on this Board recently from the 50's who had a wonderful standard classical sound and was one of the best jazz sidemen of his day (wish I could remember the reference.....anyone?).
You must listen, and emulate those you admire. Don't worry about what is "dark" or "bright," or jazz or classical. Find your own path.
...............Paul Aviles
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