 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: m1964
Date: 2020-01-02 23:50
Happy New Year to all!
On Dec. 31st. I received my new R13 A clarinet that I bought online.
Since we were going on vacation I did not have time to play it except for quick sound/tuning check.
I immediately noted two problems:
1. The upper tenon binds with barrel when the barrel reaches the shoulder.
2. The upper joint does not hold suction.
Since I bought the clarinet from outside the country, I cannot go to Buffet for warranty repair.
I have done re-pads,changed key and tenon corks, did adjustments in spring tension and keys opening height so I am not afraid to do a basic repair.
I should be able to identify the leaking pad(s) and probably change it myself.
I wonder if I can shave the tenon shoulder using a thin sandpaper strip, or if it really should be done on a lathe.
I also would like to add that buying the clarinet (even though it was cheaper than buying it in the US) drained my budget and I would like not to spend any additional money on the repairs if I can do it myself.
On the other hand, if the binding tenon problem should be fixed using a lathe then I will pay the price - hopefully it will not bankrupt me😉
Thanks.
***One spring that I could not adjust properly was the F#/C# key spring.
When I tried to reduce its tension on my Bb clarinet, it became too weak and I had to go to a tech to fix that.
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Author: clarimad
Date: 2020-01-03 00:05
You didn't say how/where you bought it - was is eBay? If so it is likely it was not as described and you could request a return for a full refund or a partial refund. The seller would be liable for the cost of the return but you would be required to commence any return action through the sites official link.
I notice that it appears you have made adjustments ie to a spring. The seller could argue you have "tampered" with the horn and on that basis a return might not be possible.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2020-01-03 01:03
Shave the tenon shoulder down by hand as machining it can remove far too much and cause it to wobble. You only need to remove the high spots which can be done by hand with a sharp scraper.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Grabnerwg
Date: 2020-01-03 02:04
These are normal setup issues that every Buffet dealer faces and most take care of as a matter of course. Since you did not buy through a dealer your recourse is to send it back and get a refund, if you can, or more reasonably have a good tech look at it.
The tenon should absolutely be turned on a lathe, but only by someone who knows what they are doing.
Next time, consider buying from an authorized dealer, and spare yourself these headaches.
Walter Grabner
www.clarinetxpress.com
Grabner HiTech Clarinet Mouthpieces
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2020-01-03 02:41
When I purchased my new R13 a year ago, it turned out there was a burr on the tenon wood just beneath the cork. I had it taken care of by Jonathan Copeland (formerly of the Nashville area). It was his experience that this high spot is pretty common these days (apparently the finishers at buffet cause this cutting the cork.......go figure). He was pretty specific about taking care of this with a thin strip of fine sandpaper that he used by hand (it doesn't take much to bring the burr down at all).
As for the leak, it should be pretty easy to figure out where that is and change the pad yourself.
...............Paul Aviles
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Author: m1964
Date: 2020-01-03 03:23
Thanks a lot to everyone who replied to my post.
To Walter G:
My original post was not a complaint- I knew of the binding tenons and leaking pads of new Buffets from my own personal experience with my Bb and from reading this forum.
I just wanted to hear from people who repair clarinets for the living regarding how to go about the binding tenon- sandpaper vs. lathe.
The money I saved buying the clarinet online from a non-US Buffet dealer is definitely worthy of the "troubles", even if I have to pay for the repairs.
To Paul and Chris:
Thanks a lot for your encouragement. When I am back home I will check the diameter of the shoulder with a caliper to see if I can find a high spot. If I do then it should be simple to remove it with 500-600 sandpaper.
To Clarimad: I did the spring adjustment I mentioned in my original post, on my Bb Buffet.
That key has an unusual spring and, according to a tech who fixed it, it could be difficult to adjust in order to achieve a good balance between not too much tension and quick response at the same time.
Chris (I think) posted excellent pictures of the adjustment he does to eliminate the problem.
Again,
Thanks to everyone.
Seems that the score is 2:1 in favor of sandpaper vs. lathe😀
Post Edited (2020-01-03 03:34)
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2020-01-03 03:39
I've used a fine abrasive nail file to reduce tenon shoulders. It only takes a few gentle strokes and allows good control.
Tony F.
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Author: m1964
Date: 2020-01-03 05:55
Tony F wrote:
> I've used a fine abrasive nail file to reduce tenon shoulders.
> It only takes a few gentle strokes and allows good control.
>
Hi Tony,
Thanks for good advice- a file definitely is more controllable than sandpaper.
The problem is to identify the high spot(s).
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2020-01-03 13:13
>> consider buying from an authorized dealer, and spare yourself these headaches. <<
Not sure he didn't buy from an authorized Buffet dealer...? They just mentioned it was bought online from another country.
>> These are normal setup issues that every Buffet dealer faces and most take care of as a matter of course. <<
I see many Buffet clarinets that are bought new from authorized dealers (from quite a few different countries too). I'd say statistically, most don't take care of those issues as a matter of course.
>> The tenon should absolutely be turned on a lathe... <<
>> Shave the tenon shoulder down by hand as machining it can remove far too much and cause it to wobble. <<
Not sure if Chris meant that as a DIY advice or in general. You could use either method. Sanding by hand can also remove too much. It's more about how you do it rather than the method itself. I almost always use a lathe, but wouldn't suggest someone who has never used a lathe to do that...
I disagree that it has to be done on a lathe.
Re the burr that was mentioned, this is not the usual situation. The most common problem is that the bottom shoulder (and occasionally, but far less often, the top) is just too large. I've seen clarinets where as much as 0.2mm was needed to remove. This can be done with sand paper but would just take very long (except to take forever using 600 grit). So...
>> a file definitely is more controllable than sandpaper.
The problem is to identify the high spot(s). <<
You could use a file, preferably a narrow one with a safe edge, to not file the bottom, only the tenon. You could also grind the teeth of an old file and glue sand paper to it, or use nail files which usually have two grits (the flexible ones, which you can cut to the tenon shoulder width).
It's entirely possible that it would be best to remove material from the entire circumference, not just a few high spots. It's also possible that it would seem like high spots, then once they are sanded, other areas are now high. The highest areas might prevent still-too-high areas from touching the socket.
You can lightly sand the entire circumference, just to get a similar texture all around. Then assemble the tenon by just pushing it, without turning (or at least the slightest bit of turning if it's very hard, say a millimeter or two). The areas that are touching will usually be shiny or change the surface.
You might get lucky. FWIW, I've seen almost no tenons that changed from binding to a good fit with a few swipes of fine (or even not so fine) sandpaper.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2020-01-03 16:11
Please don't sand it down as that can leave the tenon ring with a dip or rounded off if overdone - I see that often and it's a shame they can end up like that and at worst they end up rocking as there's nothing solid to keep the joints fitting well together.
You can easily see the high spots as they'll be shiny where the tenon rings bind in the sockets when you've cleaned the grease off them. Just remove dust from the high spots and check the fit, then remove some more until the sockets fit well without binding nor rocking.
Ideally tenons should fit their respective sockets like the fit of a flute headjoint in its socket or tuning slides on a brass instrument even without the tenon cork fitted. Only this isn't an ideal world and wood wants to move about with humidity changes and you'll have to find the best compromise.
Chances are both the tenons and sockets are very slightly out of round as that's how quarter sawn timber naturally goes with humidity changes and there's not much you can do to prevent that happening. Plastic, ebonite, metal and Greenline instruments don't have this problem - even though Greenline is reconstituted grenadilla, it is in essence a composite made from wood dust and resin with no natural grain pattern.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: crelias11
Date: 2020-01-03 18:22
I recently bought an R13 silver keys. It was supposed to be used but I found it to be barely used. Since I have had it I traced it to its owner ( I happened to know her)and store where and when purchased(they kept NO records).The B and C# 3rd line and space were giving me grief. Had it back to the store where I bought it, he said he fixed/adjusted it-not. Then I took it to the local guy and he adjusted it but it didn't stay. Happened again Thought maybe I did something putting it together so he adjusted it again. It didn't stay. Took it back seemed good, no squeaking, until I tried playing a Left hand C that I need Sunday-no sound. That is the tone hole that had a chip repaired but that wasn't the problem. Took it back and he used a magnifying glass, couldn't see the problem with the naked eye and discovered a factory defect. The 2 keys were touching every so slightly at the post. He removed them and ground them down ever so slightly. So far so good considering I haven't had to play for 2 weeks.The repair guy fixes a lot of newer Buffets so it was a surprise to him, he never saw that defect before but now he knows if he gets another one with the same issues. I love my van doran optimum ligature. Made a big difference. Reduced air leaks around the reed, fewer squeaks. Now that the discovered factory defects have been fixed (2 so far) until the next one pops up, so far so good. New instruments have to be tweaked, its a certainty. When I bought my new bassoon 55 years ago it was an all day tweaking and adjusting session by the master Hans Moening.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2020-01-03 21:44
Attachment: P4150001.JPG (679k)
Attachment: P8030012.JPG (677k)
I recently worked on a Hans Moennig modified '60s Buffet that once belonged to John Koljonen and was bought from him by a player living near the Sussex-Hampshire border (1st attachment). Very nice player and certainly packs more punch than a modern R13 - it would've been interesting to compare it to a '60s Selmer 10G considering they were based on them.
Older Buffets are definitely built better than modern ones, but I still respring the F#/C# key so a longer and heavier gauge spring is mounted in the pillar instead of on the underside of the key rod (2nd attachment). That makes it much easier to balance. Although common problem with many Buffets is the E/B and F#/C# keys can bind up when slurring E-F# or B-C# as the linkage piece on the E/B key catches against the end of the LH F#/C# lever. That's cured by filing a recess on the LH F#/C# lever - Yamaha taper the end of that key for the sale reason.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2020-01-04 00:14)
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Author: crelias11
Date: 2020-01-03 22:02
That's what my guy did. He never saw it before so now he knows. He figured it out using a magnifying glass. You are right it is the B/E and F#/C#key. I'll pass along your info about the spring to my repair guy. I,m not crazy about the plastic in the posts either. Clarinet is my "fun" instrument after not playing for 50+ years so therefore I don't need a top of the line but I am disappointed in the horn. My daughter has a beautiful R13 (1966) we bought from my best friend for $800 and had it completely overhauled.If I had to do it over again I probably wouldn't have bought a Buffet. I might try Yamaha CSRV if the Buffet develops more issues. It was made in 2013, sold in 2017, and she got rid of it. I don't think it was even broken in. I'll see how it holds up. It does get frustrating.
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Author: m1964
Date: 2020-01-03 23:07
Chris P wrote:
"You can easily see the high spots as they'll be shiny where the tenon rings bind in the sockets when you've cleaned the grease off them. Just remove dust from the high spots and check the fit, then remove some more until the sockets fit well without binding nor rocking."
Again,
Thanks to everyone- esp. for the tip on how to find the high spot.
When I got my new Bb Buffet about 8 months ago , it had the same issue with tenon binding, though the problem was not apparent until after I played it for a few days.
I had someone fix it- he said he used a lathe. After another 2-3 days of playing the problem re-appeared so I contacted the same tech.
The second time he not only checked the tenons but also the insides of the barrel and lower joint.
The tech said that they were slightly out of round and that he shaved very slightly insides of both the barrel and the lower joint.
I have not had tenon binding after that but I found that both tenons of the upper joint would go into their respective sockets too easy, and eventually I had to change the lower tenon cork to make sure that the middle joint would not be coming apart while practicing.
In fact, I believe that someone on this forum said to never touch inside the lower joint socket, with the argument that it is better to have a binding tenon then lose middle joint.
So, having that experience with my Bb and all the advice from the board, I should be able to find someone who can fix the problem without making the joints lose.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2020-01-04 00:11
Attachment: PA170003.JPG (676k)
Attachment: eatontenon1.jpg (153k)
I've sleeved an excessively loose middle tenon on a clarinet with plastic and that can be made to be an absolute perfect fit in the socket with no risk of binding due to the smoothness/waxiness of the plastic (2nd attachment).
Another option is to metal sleeve the tenon or fit a metal socket liner (see 1st attachment), or both as is often done on oboes. But these are drastic measures.
A less invasive method is to machine down the tenon rings, then build them up oversize with superglue and wood dust, then machine to the required diameter. This too is less likely to bind due to the superglue and if anything, the tenon ring at the shoulder should be longer than the end tenon ring (up to double the length) so there's more contact with the socket and therefore more stability. The tenon cork doesn't have to be as wide as it is on most clarinets. Some clarinets with a very thin tenon ring at the shoulder will be more likely to wobble as there's going to be some wear of the socket and less purchase with the tenon ring.
A loose or wobbling tenon in its socket is also detrimental to the instrument as when it rocks, it will exert localised pressure at the front of the socket at the base which is right above the C/G tonehole and can cause the socket to crack right through to the tonehole which can be an expensive repair depending on the severity. A well fitting tenon won't rock about or cause pressure points within the socket.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2020-01-04 00:13)
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Author: m1964
Date: 2020-01-04 00:46
Chris P wrote:
> I've sleeved an excessively loose middle tenon on a clarinet
> with plastic and that can be made to be an absolute perfect fit
> in the socket with no risk of binding due to the
> smoothness/waxiness of the plastic (2nd attachment).
>
> Another option is to metal sleeve the tenon or fit a metal
> socket liner (see 1st attachment), or both as is often done on
> oboes. But these are drastic measures.
>
> A less invasive method is to machine down the tenon rings, then
> build them up oversize with superglue and wood dust, then
> machine to the required diameter. This too is less likely to
> bind due to the superglue and if anything, the tenon ring at
> the shoulder should be longer than the end tenon ring (up to
> double the length) so there's more contact with the socket and
> therefore more stability. The tenon cork doesn't have to be as
> wide as it is on most clarinets. Some clarinets with a very
> thin tenon ring at the shoulder will be more likely to wobble
> as there's going to be some wear of the socket and less
> purchase with the tenon ring.
>
> A loose or wobbling tenon in its socket is also detrimental to
> the instrument as when it rocks, it will exert localised
> pressure at the front of the socket at the base which is right
> above the C/G tonehole and can cause the socket to crack right
> through to the tonehole which can be an expensive repair
> depending on the severity. A well fitting tenon won't rock
> about or cause pressure points within the socket.
>
Chris,
Absolutely beautiful work! As well as your F/C# spring modification!
Luckily, the middle tenon of my Bb is not that lose to take the drastic measures you described. It feels absolutely fine now, after I installed slightly thicker cork. To be honest, it probably would have been fine with factory cork. I use La Tromba synthetic grease which is very slippery so the tenon felt like it could come apart, not that it did.
Since I had time and a sheet of good quality cork, I changed it.
I have not seen the sticking left hand F/C# lever on my Buffets but I am sure you see a lot of them and I personally went "only" through 5 including the two current ones.
In any case, all these issues, as annoying as they are, are not a deal- breaker to me.
Although, I can see how they could be a deal breaker to someone who cannot find problems him/herself and does not have an easy access to a good technician.
If not too difficult, could you please post a picture of the sticking left F/C# lever?
I am not sure I understand the problem. Back in the day when the pins at the end of left hand levers were metal, I occasionally saw sticking levers due to the excess material placed over the pins to silence them. Not with current Buffets since no insulation is needed.
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Author: crelias11
Date: 2020-01-04 00:55
I would like to see that picture too. I had issues with the LH C, E/B. Seems OK now.
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Author: crelias11
Date: 2020-01-08 19:57
I am struggling with my "newer" barely used R13 Buffet. I actually dislike it the more I play it and its a struggle. It was never setup from new. I have been recommended to use Wes Rice or Melanie Wong. Not sure the horn is worth an $800 overhaul. I paid $2,200 and it was barely used. The previous owner had issues but is not a real strong player. Who should I get to do the work. I am on the East Coast but can mail what I call "the piece of Junk" anywhere.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2020-01-08 21:07
Jonathan Copeland of Louisville Kentucky.
https://betterclarinets.com
I've had him do work for me which was excellent and I've seen some of his restored instruments which are great. He also uses the Valentino Masters as the standard pad for his work and they will seal like a coke bottle for at least ten years!
...............Paul Aviles
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Author: crelias11
Date: 2020-01-08 21:20
Thanks. I know a guy who goes there too that's how I got the name. It isn't that I don't have the money,its just that clarinet is for fun but the instrument makes it not fun and I am not sure the horn is worth the investment. I can't go by the previous owner but she isn't a very good player so it was probably even more of a struggle for her. I have switched to a stiffer reed and that is better but the horn is still leaking now in the upper joint. All the G's right above the staff is the worst offender. I will mail it for an evaluation maybe but I have other possibilities to check out that might be closer to drive and do a play and setup. Not sure why anyone would buy or sell a so called pro horn with out an initial setup. None of them play out of the box. I'm just not sure the newer R13s are that great for many reasons. I still want to try the Uebels since they are only 90 minutes from me. Thanks for your great advice.
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Author: m1964
Date: 2020-01-08 22:38
Hicrelias11 wrote:
> ... It isn't that I don't have the money,its just that
> clarinet is for fun but the instrument makes it not fun and I
> am not sure the horn is worth the investment. ...
> advice.
Hi,
I just had my new R13 fixed by Michael Norsworthy.
He fixed binding tenon and also re-seated a couple of pads so now the clarinet seals well.
I think he did good job and was not expensive. I do have some experience fixing clarinets but the tenon binding required lathe and rimmer which I do not have.
His shop is in Brooklyn, NY.
Website: reedworthy.com
He plays very well and probably can evaluate your instrument before fixing it. If the verdict is unfavorable then you could just sell the instrument as is.
However, from what I've seen today, I believe he most likely can bring your R13 to life.
Post Edited (2020-01-09 19:28)
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Author: crelias11
Date: 2020-01-08 23:07
I have the tenon issue too along with other stuff but so far no issues but that will change with the summer humidity. I have seen others post about the tenons as well.
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Author: m1964
Date: 2020-01-09 17:07
crelias11 wrote:
> I have the tenon issue too along with other stuff but so far no
> issues but that will change with the summer humidity. I have
> seen others post about the tenons as well.
Not necessarily- once the tenon(s) problem is fixed it does not come back.
If I understand correctly, the clarinet you bought was in storage for a few years, then it was bought by an amateur player who did not like it and sold it to the store.
Usually a new instrument will "open up" after it has been played for a while but your clarinet has not really being played like that yet.
Being in storage also does not help because the pads lose elasticity and start leaking a little. It can be difficult to pin-point the problem if a few pads leak, each one a little bit.
If you feel comfortable you can use my "method":
Take all the keys off the top joint.
Check all tone holes for chips, uneven seat, etc.- anything that may prevent pads from sealing well. Check for cracks.
Make small balls of plasticine and plug all the tone holes using the plasticine balls.
4. Check if the joint holds suction. It should. If it doesn't, it means that either the register tube or the thumb tube is not sealed well.
5. Put keys back one at a time and check suction- ideally the joint has to hold it for a few seconds-10 or more is good imho.
6. Take the key that you just installed and checked, off the joint. Seal the tone hole with plasticine ball and check another key/pad.
Keep going until you have checked all the pads and corrected any problems. Then put everything back.
Very slow and time consuming procedure but it works for me. However, if the tone holes are damaged, or keys are bent, or posts are misaligned/lose you may need a professional.
However, you need to know if the person you take the clarinet to fix, can do a proper job. Ideally he should be a clarinet player who can play test.
Many beginners and even professionals do not realize that one or two pads that leak slightly may not prevent you from playing but it would be a struggle to play that instrument.
IF you really dislike your horn, then sell it, cut your losses and get something else.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2020-01-09 19:48
>> once the tenon(s) problem is fixed it does not come back. <<
Not always true. I've seen a couple of clarinets where I had to refit the tenon three times. Of course this is very rare, but there were a few more that had to be fitted twice. This is probably a sign of pretty unstable wood...
The tenon diameter was larger than the socket diameter, it was turned to the largest diameter that allowed it to not bind when played, then some months later the tenon was again binding.
>> Check if the joint holds suction. It should. If it doesn't, it means that either the register tube or the thumb tube is not sealed well. <<
These are likely but there are a few other options.
A tone hole (or end of the bore hole) might have some kind of tiny chip on the side that whatever you use to seal doesn't go into (sometimes hard to notice since it's not at the top too).
It can leak from various places in the wood. Posts and countersinks are the most common places (not that it's common).
Some leak through the tenon (through the cork too).
The weirdest case I've seen was a leak from a few tiny holes at random places on the body itself, impossible to see without a magnifier and without knowing they are there.
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Author: m1964
Date: 2020-01-11 08:47
clarnibass wrote:
> >> once the tenon(s) problem is fixed it does not come back. <<
>
> Not always true. I've seen a couple of clarinets where I had to
> refit the tenon three times. Of course this is very rare, but
> there were a few more that had to be fitted twice. This is
> probably a sign of pretty unstable wood...
>
> The tenon diameter was larger than the socket diameter, it was
> turned to the largest diameter that allowed it to not bind when
> played, then some months later the tenon was again binding.
>
> >> Check if the joint holds suction. It should. If it doesn't,
> it means that either the register tube or the thumb tube is not
> sealed well. <<
>
> These are likely but there are a few other options.
> A tone hole (or end of the bore hole) might have some kind of
> tiny chip on the side that whatever you use to seal doesn't go
> into (sometimes hard to notice since it's not at the top too).
> It can leak from various places in the wood. Posts and
> countersinks are the most common places (not that it's common).
> Some leak through the tenon (through the cork too).
> The weirdest case I've seen was a leak from a few tiny holes at
> random places on the body itself, impossible to see without a
> magnifier and without knowing they are there.
Hi clarnibass,
No doubt that you see many more instruments than I do and see the problems I have not seen and may never see.
However, his clarinet is almost new. Old stock but practically unused, so I would not expect leaking posts or holes in the wood- not that it is impossible but very unlikely. Well, no one knows how the person who owned it before, treated the instrument but chances are she did not abuse brand new R13.
I would expect more common problems like leaking pads or chipped tone holes.
Even my new R13 A had a couple of pads that needed re-seating, and the crow foot adjustment.
But it was playable even before the above work was done.
When I said, "once the tenon(s) problem is fixed it does not come back,'' I should have said "Once the tenon(s) problem is fixed it is unlikely to come back".
My Bb required tenon adjustment twice because the tech was very careful first time and removed so little material that after two more days it was binding again.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2020-01-11 09:24
You're right, those other problems are rare, but worth mentioning anyway.
Binding tenons I see are 99% of the time on new clarinets.
>> My Bb required tenon adjustment twice because the tech was very careful first time and removed so little material that after two more days it was binding again. <<
Which is good. The clarinet (especially a new one) might change more the more you play it, so it's best to remove the absolute minimum amount necessary and remove more if the problem returns. Many players (unfortunately) are familiar with barrels that fit fine, only to bind after playing, or get worse and worse over a few days/weeks of playing. Some (eventually) binding joints work fine the first few days or for even longer.
This is why a slip fit like a slide isn't realistic for a clarinet joint. The fit changes too much when it's played.
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