 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: johnnydodds
Date: 2019-12-22 06:17
Attachment: johnny_dodds.jpg (11k)
Any other jazz clarinet players out there? As a trad jazz specialist, I am especially interested in what the early jazz guys were playing. I'm not playing an Albert like many of them were but still would like to know what was popular through the 40's. Thanks in advance for your answers.
FYI- I am currently playing a Brilhart Personaline 5. Before that I was playing on an ARB Hard Rubber 4 (dropped and broke it bad) and an ARB Tonalex 5. I also have a couple of vintage BRUNO Claude Lakeys I like and a vtg Brilhart Special that's very good too.
Post Edited (2019-12-22 06:20)
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Author: Fuzzy
Date: 2019-12-22 21:18
I play trad jazz...currently I'm on a Pete Fountain Leblanc/Pomerico crystal mouthpiece (placed on an 1898 Conn Albert/Simple system. Before that I was on a Pyne Signature, before that I was on a Vandoren Lyre M13, before that I was on a Gigliotti (modified slightly by Ralph Strouff). The Pete Fountain Leblanc mouthpiece is really the only mouthpiece of my batch marketed as "Jazz" and I'm pretty sure it isn't all "that" jazzy in specs.
Honestly, I confess that I've never been much of a gear junky or cared what "the others" are using or did use. Perhaps I could gain a lot by understanding the various gear better, but at the same time - it is a specific sound/control/flexibility that I'm after...and what would work for someone else probably wouldn't work for me.
Unfortunately, this leaves me unable to address your second question about what the early folks used.
Always happy to see another trad jazz player on the boards!
Fuzzy
{EDIT: added "of my batch" to clarify my original message}
Post Edited (2019-12-25 04:09)
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2019-12-23 01:10
Tracking down what the early New Orleans Jazz clarinetists used on their mostly Albert system instruments is next to impossible. Two current players who might have some reliable information about this would be Dr. Michael White and Evan Christopher. Even if it were possible to get accurate identification of what they played, transferring that to any modern Boehm system clarinet would be problematic to say the least. The bore sizes and tapers of the two systems and vintages of clarinets are quite different, and this would affect tone and tuning. Evan Christopher has tried several different clarinet models, including an Austrian Hammerschmidt and, the latest I heard, he was playing an old Selmer Improved model Albert clarinet with a mouthpiece designed for him by Vytas Krass. Dr. White also has tried several clarinets and some time ago switched to a Wurlitzer Boehm clarinet. He does not appear to be using a Wurlitzer mouthpiece though.
When the old players' clarinets finally reach a museum. they often do not have the original player's mouthpiece included. For a later period of jazz, the swing era, a famous example is Artie Shaw's clarinets. The museum samples have included a Chedeville mouthpiece, which is definitely not what Shaw played on most of his famous recordings. He generally used Brillhart mouthpieces, but just maybe not the special "Artie Shaw" model with the altered baffle. A jazz historian once told me that by studying a photo of Sidney Bechet, it was determined that Bechet played (or at least posted in the photo with) a white plastic Goldentone (American Selmer) mouthpiece. Those, of course, are usually thought of as beginners' mouthpieces. Sometimes, a persistent historian might trace information back from a student or protege of an old jazz player and get reliable information that way. For instance, Pete Fountain had a crystal mouthpiece Irving Fazola gave him that was probably a Harry O'Brien. Fountain also said that Faz played on that one for a while. LeBlanc probably based their Pete Fountain model on that one. I believe the original broke and Fountain played on a modification of the Vandoren A series crystal model. But what did Ed Hall, Johnny Dodds, Alpohonse Picou, Barney Bigard, and others of the previous generations use? Whoever could assemble reliable info on that might have a basis for a good masters thesis;.
Post Edited (2019-12-23 05:19)
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Author: Fuzzy
Date: 2019-12-23 08:50
Seabreeze (as usual) provided the best info...he also touched on the topic of photos.
I've seen a few rare photos of Leon Roppolo (shared with a potential biographer by Roppolo's family) where Leon has the reed on the mouthpiece, and has the mouthpiece on - rotated 180 degrees away from his body (meaning, the reed is facing the upper lip/teeth instead of the lower.) This occurs in not one, but at least two photos taken by different photographers at different times. Curious. Likewise (as I posted years ago on this bboard) I own a vintage fingering chart for the "regular clarinet" with 13 keys, or the deluxe version with 14 keys...in the drawings, the photos show the reed facing 180 degrees away from the player's body (reed towards upper lip/teeth instead of lower lip/teeth.
As a result, I've tried playing that way, and find it surprisingly easy to adapt to. I'd have to work my stamina up a bit as long tones begin to fatigue that embouchure within a few slow tunes. I doubt I'd ever change to that embouchure, but is an interesting test/study at any rate.
Fuzzy
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2019-12-23 09:05
When Gino Cioffi (most famous for his work with the Boston Symphony) came to the US from Italy (was that the late 1940s or early 50s?) he was still playing with the reed on top the way players did before Johann Backofen, Fredrich Berr, and Carl Baermann decided having the reed down and touching the bottom lip was better. The old tradition dating back to Denner's time seems to have lingered in Italy longer than it did in most other parts of the clarinet playing world. Roppolo may have been taught by an old Italian who continued the tradition. Or he may have just posed that way for photos.
Post Edited (2019-12-23 09:42)
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Author: Fuzzy
Date: 2019-12-23 09:21
Thanks Seabreeze! I couldn't remember the details, but I thought there was a direct lineage to Italian players using the "reed up" technique at some point. Even the potential biographer was stymied by the question of whether Roppolo played that way or (as you mentioned) just posed that way (or was posed that way by the photographer.) Either way, I think it highlights how little we know about the subject of mouthpieces and technique used by many of the players of early jazz.
Another name or two that I'd probably drop onto your list of "folks who might be able to shed some specifics" on the topic of gear used in the pre-bebop era: Clint Baker (California) and Dan Levinson (New York) - at least in specific cases.
Fuzzy
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2019-12-23 09:30
Cioffi's favorite etude book was Gaetano Labanchi's clarinet method. In the original Italian edition, Labanchi shows the traditional way of playing the clarinet with the reed against the top lip and claims that that position gives a more "vocal" sound and enables the player to tongue more freely and rapidly.
Post Edited (2019-12-23 09:33)
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Author: Late_returner
Date: 2019-12-24 00:01
Hi
"but still would like to know what was popular through the 40's."
I cant offer anything about mp s used, but I can remember reading a couple of things years ago. I suppose this is largely earlier than 40s, but anyway...
1/ One NO Jazz historian wrote that at the turn of the century there were lots of ex Civil War military instruments available in pawn shops, and concluded that many early players used instruments in all kinds of strange keys.
2/ Johnny Dodds is quoted ( somewhere, I cant currently find it ) as saying : "Sidney and I played on reeds so strong that nobody else could blow them".
This has always struck me as counter intuitive since he was the master of scoops and bends, and for that we are told to use soft reeds.
3/ In photos of King Olivers CJB Johnny is shown with a second clarinet. Neither look Eb size. Suggesting ? he did use A or C in addition to Bb ?
4/ Never seen a photo of a NO / Chicago player with reed up. But in the cinema film The Lady Vanishes ( c 1950 ?, original version) there is a European folk player using that method.
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2019-12-24 07:14
I grew up in New Orleans during the 1950s and liked the New Orleans Jazz clarinet Harold Cooper was playing then and into the 60s. (He's on recordings by the Dukes of Dixieland and Al Hirt). I did have several conversations with him and discovered that he used a Selmer E mouthpiece--one with the facing marked inside of an oval--so an "oval E Selmer." Other players liked Selmer HS** in both rubber and crystal. The O'Brien crystal mouthpieces were very popular too. All the jazz players of that generation seemed to be playing on Boehm clarinets (usually Selmer or Penzel Mueller). I heard many of the older generation players (including Louis Cottrell and Harry Shields, a relative of Larry Shields) on Albert system but didn't pay much attention to the equipment they were using. I do recall that if you wanted an Albert clarinet you could always get one from Ray Burke who used to have a little stall back of the St. Louis Cathedral on weekends loaded with old clarinets. Most were Selmer or Buffet with the wraparound register key at the top, and I recall seeing mostly wooden mouthpieces on them. He tried to sell me an Albert many times, but I couldn't stretch my right hand fingers wide enough to feel comfortable on an Albert and I was really listening to Buddy DeFranco then and starting to listen to classical players (on recordings) like Louis Cahuzac and Leopold Wlach so that seemed very old fashioned to me (though now I would pay attention, since I've learned to listen to and appreciate more styles of playing).
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Author: Fuzzy
Date: 2019-12-24 09:17
Seabreeze,
You always seem to say something that impacts me. Thanks for sharing the additional info. First: providing a point of reference pertaining to an example of "reed-up" documentation. The second being the mention of Raymond Burke's shop. Do you remember where his shop was located? I spoke with folks who played with Raymond, but I've never thought to ask where his shop was.
Thanks,
Fuzzy
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2019-12-24 19:33
Burke had what is today called a "pop-up" shop, a sidewalk stall that would irregularly appear on week-ends and clear out at other times. I doubt the address ever graced the pages of the Bell Tell phone book or city directory. As I recall, it was in the 600 block of Pere Antoine Alley, between Royal and Chartres Streets, at the edge of "St. Anthony Gardens." just behind the cathedral. Most of the music stores--Werlines, Gruenwalds, Peterson's--were no longer selling Albert system instruments by then--they were pushing Boehm clarinets like Selmer Center Tone, Series 9, and Leblanc Classic, Symphony, and LL Boehm models along with student Bundys, Signets, Noblets, and Normandys. Pawn shops still had Alberts though: there was one on Rampart St near Canal St that was a favorite place for the older players to buy them, in addition to Burke's little emporium. And, New Orleans being New Orleans, you would see Albert systems from time to time for sale in the Classified Ads section of The Times Picayune newspaper
Post Edited (2019-12-24 20:20)
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Author: Fuzzy
Date: 2019-12-25 04:06
I have a (digital) copy of the Sept-Oct 1958 Second Line magazine (which featured Raymond Burke). At that time, it sounds like Raymond had an actual shop on Bourbon Street (with a lock and key, etc.) However, they never state the address or what it was next to. I guess I romanticized the picture by keeping him at that same shop as the years went on.
What years (roughly) do you recall him doing the pop-up stall?
Raymond has been a bit of a mystery to me for years, so I always enjoy learning a bit more about him.
Thanks!
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2019-12-25 09:21
That would be 1958 to 1960. I used to visit Mina Crais at the Vieux Carre Music Shop, 706 Bourbon St, to hear the latest jazz records and talk shop with her. She became a luminary figure in the New Orleans Jazz Club, traditional jazz journalism, and record production later and just passed away last year at age 93. (She got me--despite my preference then for the later jazz styles of Buddy DeFranco and Alvin Batiste--to become a member). Bill and Mina Lea Crais were well acquainted with Burke and just might have let him sell clarinets out of their store too, but I don't actually recall him doing that. I always saw him at the little open stall just two blocks away, behind the cathedral, that might just as well have been a taco or Italian ice stand. If Burke had his own shop on Bourbon Street, I didn't know about it. I was just a high school kid testing the waters in those days and there were lots of things I didn't know and was too shy to ask about. Crais' store was two blocks from Preservation Hall and one block from where Rouse's Grocery is today on Royal St., in front of which Doreen Ketchens can be found entertaining tourists.
A bit later on, I worked for the Port of New Orleans, and sometimes heard Ray Burke playing for conventions in the stylish Rivergate Exposition Hall that was eventually torn down--over protests of modern architecture fans--to build the present eyesore of a Casino. The rugged lines of Burke's playing worked as well against the abstract lines of the modernist building as they did with a backdrop of shotgun houses or Spanish Cabildo buildings. So I guess that's another tidbit about him.
Post Edited (2019-12-26 00:11)
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Author: Fuzzy
Date: 2019-12-25 11:17
Thanks Seabreeze!
"The rugged lines of Burke's playing..." - I've probably shared this with you before...but it comes from within the same 1958 Second Line mentioned above, so seems applicable to mention here too:
"One summer night, I [Al Rose] was talking with the late George Girard during an intermission in front of The Famous Door. 'Al,' he said, 'I'm going to be needing a clarinet player. Got any ideas?'
'How about Raymond?' I suggested.
'Man, that would be plain heaven!' George laughed, 'But, if I had him, I'd still need a clarinet player!'"
Fuzzy
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Author: jack
Date: 2019-12-25 11:28
Selmer BT, early 50's M series and Vandoren 5RV. Match made in something close to heaven. Able to dig deeply into a vault of sound. Resistance and resonance perfect (for me anyway). Huge ability to bend (how to say it?) the tone. A very good normal mouthpiece that works great on a modern pro horn such as the Selmer Privilege does nothing for the Selmer BT. Somehow the wide open 5RV nails it.
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Author: Max S-D
Date: 2019-12-26 23:41
The 5RV has a pretty closed tip opening. Vandoren lists it at 1.06 mm and the one I have on my desk is pretty close to that.
For me it has a decent tone, but doesn't really get beyond what I'd consider a mezzoforte and takes a lot of air to get there. Maybe mine's not a good example of one, though.
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Author: jack
Date: 2019-12-27 12:21
Hi Max,
I totally miss spoke. My above post said Vandoren 5RV. What I meant to say was Vandoren 5JB. Tip opening is 1.47 mm.
I feel pretty fortunate that I have this mouthpiece to pair with the Selmer BT clarinet. Had been looking for this sound for years.
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Author: Mark Fleming
Date: 2020-01-02 00:38
I just bought a John Peirce jazz clarinet mouthpiece that came in with some saxophone mouthpieces that I bid on. He has been mentioned before here, sometimes with his name misspelled as Pierce. In fact, when his mouthpieces were still in stock at WWBW and other stores circa 2002, they often misspelled his name as Pierce.
Peirce was mainly a jazz alto player, although the cover art on his only album shows him holding a clarinet and, since there are "JP" clarinet mouthpieces, he obviously played clarinet. I haven't heard that album, some of which was reportedly recorded at a high school where he played for the students in the gymnasium. His other known recording was with George Russel in 1962 (Stratus Seekers). Blazing riffs on alto. I'll have to pull out my clarinet and see if when using the JP mouthpiece I can now play blazing riffs on clarinet.
The JP mouthpiece reportedly has a larger than normal tip opening. It has a drop beak like a saxophone mouthpiece. Some say a short lay and other say long. I haven't measured or played it yet, so I don't know. Most who have tried it like it. Maybe it's his super-special ebonite formula.
Mark
Here's a partial Youtube album for those interested in what he could do on alto. He starts cooking at 1:00 in "Pan Daddy."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KePd-I3m57s&list=PLEbt2eXoyFI9CnolLeK9mItI7FIzv4fsT&index=1
Post Edited (2020-01-02 00:41)
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The Clarinet Pages
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