 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: LGS316217
Date: 2019-10-30 15:17
Which recording do you like best? Can be from any era, so putting aside the wide variations in technology and quality of the recording itself, what is your favorite recording of soloist and orchestra? Why do you like this recording?
Amy Paul
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Author: Katrina
Date: 2019-10-30 16:37
Mine is a YouTube recording. Thorsten Johanns. Absolutely beautiful and the way the orchestra interacts with the soloist is entirely above par.
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2019-10-30 16:58
I've always liked the Gervase de Peyer recording.
Tony F.
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Author: rtaylor
Date: 2019-10-30 18:05
I like the Karl Leister version with Neville Mariner and the Academy of St. Martin's in the Fileds
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2019-10-30 18:08
Karl Leister Berlin Philharmonic
I actually told that to Robert Marcellus when I went to audition for Northwestern. I didn't get in.
................Paul Aviles
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Author: rtaylor
Date: 2019-10-30 18:38
Yes Paul that one is good also.
In the interview I did with Leister back in '93 in the Clarinet magazine he talks about that one. It was recorded in a church in St. Moritz. For the 2nd movement, Karajan placed Leister in the pulpit in back of the orchestra to give it an ethereal effect.
Cheers,
Robert
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Author: MartyMagnini
Date: 2019-10-30 18:42
I have to say that the Marcellus recording holds a special place in my heart. There are recording that I like better now, BUT that recording was such an important part of my development, that every time I listen to it again it reminds me of why I love to play the clarinet.
When I first heard it (early 70's), it was literally life-changing for me, and helped me identify what I wanted to sound like on clarinet. I'm sure thousands of other clarinetists feel the same way. Something special about the first time you hear something and think "I didn't know it could sound like that"!
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2019-10-30 20:33
Marcellus with the Cleveland Orchestra. Then the first full true range recording of the Concerto and the Quintet with David Shifrin. He used an extended A clarinet to reach these low notes. To me, both are pretty well done and there are other players as well.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
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Author: igalkov
Date: 2019-10-30 21:13
[I’m in midland Russia] I remember what a shock it was in early 2000s when a guy who studied with me in local Conservatoire brought a disk with a Charles Neidich record of Mozart. I played along a hundred of times maybe! It was unbelievable different from anything I heard before of a records of «Soviet Russian school» like Vladimir Sokolov. A second shock came this spring when I knew that Neidich studied actually in Soviet Russia under Boris Dikov…
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Author: DaphnisetChloe
Date: 2019-10-31 00:53
Any of Martin Fröst's recordings of the Mozart would be my pick. Sometimes his interpretations can be a bit strange, but with Mozart he delivers elegant, stylish phrasing and as always, immaculate technique. Considering the perfection of Mozart's music, I think a perfect technique is one of the basic needs!
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Author: YT
Date: 2019-10-31 03:22
Besides Ed's favorite version, which I adore also, I can very much recommend to listen to Wolfgang Meyer, my former teacher, who performs Mozart with a period clarinet under the baton of Nikolaus Harnoncourt. I simply love that recording.
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2019-10-31 03:45
Harnoncourt didn't use a baton...
But like most things produced with Harnoncourt in charge, this version is musically very captivating: tempo flexibility, dramatic use of silence, hugely varied articulation, all-in-all highly expressive. Everything that the Marcellus version isn't.
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Author: bsnake1956
Date: 2019-10-31 04:16
Like many, the Marcellus recording has my vote. This reading is no longer the best recording and maybe not even the most historically correct. BUT, I have yet to hear one that is more influential in terms of tone, intonation and musicality. These historical recordings still have much to teach us. Overall, still the best.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2019-10-31 04:26
Thank you Licorice. I told Bob his recording was too mechanical for me. I just told this story to a colleague. He says I must not have wanted to go to Northwestern because who does that? I still couldn't tell ya what was going through my head in that moment.
................Paul Aviles
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Author: ruben
Date: 2019-10-31 13:23
rtaylor: Leister recorded the Mozart Concerto at least three times, but his personal favorite was with Marriner. I recall the Karajan version being very slow, but I haven't heard it for over 40 years.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2019-10-31 14:27
Paul that is one great story. What was Bobs reaction? Did he say anything? Bob had a witty personality sometimes so a comment from him wouldn't have been uncommon!
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2019-10-31 14:54
It was not an immediate response like pulling your hand from a flame, but he did begin to quiz me about the Beethoven Symphonies. He began with, "How many Beethoven Symphonies are there..........in number?" I knew how many symphonies Beethoven wrote but his phrasing made me hesitate and answer as though I were asking a question. Then he asked me what key the Third Symphony was in. I did not know the key of Beethoven's Third or most of the others, but made a point of knowing from that day forward (again........ I couldn't tell you exactly why). He ended our brief time together asking me if I had ever considered the career of electrical engineering.
I guess if ANYONE would need to learn from that, the point would be to not say anything even remotely insulting to someone from whom you are looking for a any form of favor. Again, I cannot really say why anyone would ever need that lesson. Odd.
..................Paul Aviles
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Author: Kaos
Date: 2019-10-31 17:09
I really like this one of Alessandro Carbonare. Dynamic and clean.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1uuTXQw0ho0
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2019-10-31 22:22
Nice writing Paul. Also a very keen memory of your experience. It's a favorite story now!
As for the recording with Marcellus maybe it felt this way because of of George Szell who was a stickler for details when performing pieces the way the Composers wanted the pieces played. So I do understand your comment about being too mechanical. As others have said some of the other recordings of this fine piece have more liberties and I like this too and surely not downplaying anyone's talents. Marcellus once said that the metronome was set to about 112 for the first movement, but I of course questioned this and tested it out. There were surely liberties taken with the tempo. Your post was fun!
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
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Author: JKL
Date: 2019-11-01 01:11
What do you think about this?
https://helmut-eisel.de/programmes/orchestra/time-change-meeting-mozart/
Go to "2nd movement"!
Post Edited (2019-11-01 01:14)
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Author: Paul Globus
Date: 2019-11-01 18:51
Many great recordings of the Mozart out there but one of the best, in my view, is by Antony Pay, with Christopher Hogwood conducing the Academy of Ancient Music.
This was perhaps the first recording ever made featuring a period instrument. The playing by Tony Pay is superb, and his intelligent musicality is matched, note for note, by Christopher Hogwood and the orchestra.
In all the years since that recording came out, I don't think it has ever been surpassed. Just like the famous Marcellus recording, it represents a kind of gold standard that each of us should aim to attain.
Paul Globus
Post Edited (2019-11-01 18:52)
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2019-11-01 21:20
I agree with Paul about Antony Pay’s recording. And his recording of the Clarinet Quintet is also the best I’ve heard.
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Author: ruben
Date: 2019-11-02 00:43
Would that we had the original manuscript. If we did, then we could really decide what the best recorded versions are.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: Fuzzy
Date: 2019-11-02 01:49
I agree with Liquorice and Paul. My very first exposure to the concerto was Antony Pay/Hogwood/Academy of Ancient Music version. It has always held the spot as "favorite" for me as a result. (It was also one of the very first CDs of any type that I owned).
Fuzzy
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Author: Fuzzy
Date: 2019-11-02 01:49
[deleted - double post]
Post Edited (2019-11-02 01:49)
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Author: Paul Globus
Date: 2019-11-02 02:05
Tony Pay's approach to the concerto is wonderfully forthright and robust. Yet, it's full of nuances and unique touches that lift the music off the page. To me, the overall effect is one of great authority and authenticity that few others have ever been able to match.
If you're reading this, Mr. Pay, one hopes that you will take a bow from those of us who will always appreciate your mastery and musicianship.
Post Edited (2019-11-02 02:06)
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2019-11-02 02:52
Ruben wrote: "Would that we had the original manuscript. If we did, then we could really decide what the best recorded versions are."
I disagree. Just like having the original manuscript of Shakespeare's Hamlet wouldn't define the best contemporary version. Given the all-encompassing potential of musical expression, the symbols we have for it's notation are very few.
I agree that having the original manuscript would be wonderful. I would love to know what Mozart actually did write. But the performers of my "favourite recording" would need far more than that.
Bob Bernardo described George Szell as being "a stickler for details when performing pieces the way the Composers wanted the pieces played." I would like to know what defined Szell's parameters for his idea of the way Mozart would want this piece to be played? And by implication, why this would lead to a "mechanical" performance?
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2019-11-02 08:45
Liquorice --- would like to know what defined Szell's parameters for his idea of the way Mozart would want this piece to be played? And by implication, why this would lead to a "mechanical" performance?
Szell was a genius! No disrespect to him nor Marcellus. Never ever!! It won't happen. I picked this as a favorite recording of mine. There are many other Szell recordings I also treasure, such as his Beethoven symphonies. My main instructors were Fred Ormand, Robert Marcellus and Iggie Gennusa whom I spent 7 years with. I feel these guys were by far the very best. All 3 played in major symphonies, in fact Iggie and Fred were with Chicago for about a year. So was Mitchell Lurie, just a 1 year contract. Yes they all have different styles. I was simply commenting on Paul's post and how maybe this recording may have sounded "Mechanical," to some people. But not to me. It wasn't a "Mechanical" performance at all. It was amazing. A short history about this recording. It was discontinued for a few years as a lot of recordings are. But due to demand this was brought back into circulation.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
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Author: donald
Date: 2019-11-02 10:04
I'm not offering an opinion on which recording is "better", but I believe Hans Dienzer was the first to record the Mozart Concerto on a "period" Basset Clarinet. I'm also a fan of the "historically informed" recordings by Eric Hoeprich. I have to say that last time I performed this (about 20 years ago, sad to say) I listened closely to about 20 different recordings and found much that was edifying (and a few things that I did NOT wish to emulate). However as I get older the historically informed recordings seem to hold my interest where others fall off my radar, NOT because of the extra basset notes, maybe because of the tone of the period instrument, but mainly because of the INTERPRETATION (and the "informed" part of the equation guiding artistry).
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Author: ruben
Date: 2019-11-02 15:00
Liquorice: I agree that you can play something in strict obedience of all the score's markings and sound dull and lifeless. But what I had in mind is that Mozart, in his Kegelstatt Trio for example, does some pretty unexpected things, like the forte subitos at the end of phrases in the first movement. I assume that if we had the original score of his Clarinet Concerto, there would be a few surprising articulations and accents too. Mozart was a very mercurial man.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2019-11-02 15:26
Attachment: kegel1.jpg (453k)
Thanks everyone who appreciated my (now 35-year-old) Mozart concerto.
Ruben, your example is unfortunately chosen: those subito fortes aren't in Mozart's Kegelstatt manuscript. See attachment.
Tony
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Author: Late_returner
Date: 2019-11-02 18:53
I second Liquorish on the Tony Pay Quintet. Absolutely outstanding and surely the last word.
On the Concerto, nothing can surplant the Jack Brymer versions that i was fortunate to hear in the flesh, as well as on ancient LP, and which made me first realise the clarinet wasnt just an instrument for jazz groups. These live on in my memory and have been so nurtured over the decades that nothing else could possibly approach !
I suspect the Tony Quintet has reached similar iconic status !
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Author: ruben
Date: 2019-11-02 20:04
Tony: If that isn't the damnest thing?! I've been hearing-and playing-those subito fortes my whole life long. And it turns out they are not in the original manuscript. So much for so-called "Uhrtext" which include them (Henle, I seem to recall). Maybe Uhrtext is the musical equivalent of organically-grown food: a good pretext for charging more and they can count on our not querying anything.
PS; I played the piece with a fine violist once who refused to play the subito fortes on the grounds that they sounded totally unmusical. "But Mozart wrote them!" I unwittingly argued.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: ruben
Date: 2019-11-02 23:55
spelling correction: urtext. time I brushed up on my terrible German.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: ruben
Date: 2019-11-03 00:20
Paul Globus: I've just listened to Tony Pay's interpretation of the Mozart clarinet concerto and found it wondrous. So much life and variety of phrasing, such beauty of tone and yet everything sounds so very natural and right. Thank you for putting me on to it.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: ruben
Date: 2019-11-03 13:13
Paul: Your teacher, Yona Ettlinger, also recorded the Mozart Clarinet Concerto with Celibidache conducting (probably in the 50s). A more "standard" interpretation than Tony Pay's, but very fine, as one would expect.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: Paul Globus
Date: 2019-11-03 16:00
Yes, Yona Ettlinger's Mozart Concerto was also special. So was his Mozart and Brahms Quintets, both of which he recorded with the Tel Aviv String Quartet.
I believe that Tony Pay and Yona Ettinger do have one thing in common and that is what I would call musical intelligence. Listen to them and you can easily discern the thinking behind almost every phrase. They know what they want to express, they have good reasons for their chosen approach, and they have to ability to put it across. This is not something that all of us can achieve, not matter how well we actually play the horn.
Case in point. Yona Ettlinger would spend many hours studying the full scores (or the piano parts) of the pieces he was performing. I didn't at first understand why he did that but it eventually made sense to me. His musical intelligence demanded it.
Paul Globus
Post Edited (2019-11-03 16:02)
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Author: Ken Lagace
Date: 2019-11-03 17:32
A funny story;
Many, (many) years ago I had an extremely talented young high school boy who's uncle was a world famous pianist. He progressed rapidly and I let him borrow my LP recording of the Marcellus Mozart to impress him. He returned it a week later saying he didn't like it - too mechanical. Well, that got me to go back and listen to it again more critically!
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Author: donald
Date: 2019-11-04 23:06
re Marcellus recording - a friend of mine (college prof in USA who passed away recently) put it to me this way many years back "the really good thing about that recording is that there's nothing wrong with it, a student won't hear anything you DON'T want them to copy, but it also leaves wide open other possibilities". (not exact quote, from a conversation in the 1990s). Take from that what you will, he "liked" the recording but also acknowledged that it left some stones unturned.
As far as conservative/restrained interpretations are concerned, I had an experience where I bought a recording of the Kegelstadt in 1992, all my friends/colleagues and I listened to it then and considered it boring. Five or six years later, after some study, performances and traveling, I re-listened to that recording and found to be full of delicate and colour and shape- and really liked it. The experience of the recording will be shaped not just by YOUR listening skills and priorities, but by what will impress you at various stages of your musical development.
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2019-11-05 20:44
Needless to say I have high regards for Paul Globus way up there in Canada! Although he lives in Canada he's traveled the USA a lot and has seen many great concerts with the very best musicians, Harold Wight, Stanley Drucker and many others, all live performances. Well we called each other regarding this topic! Yep! We talked about this Clarinet Bboard submission. One thing for sure there are a lot of great recordings and it's surely hard to pick your favorite. But regardless of whom we like best it's always fun hearing Great Performances. I have to add that one friends email address, well part of it is K622! Mozart might have enjoyed the internet a lot! Seeing and hearing all of these fine recordings!
So who would Mozart want to hear the most? Maybe all of them? My guess is he would like to hear all of them. Would he have judged the playing as we are? I think so!
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
Post Edited (2019-11-05 20:46)
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Author: Paul Globus
Date: 2019-11-05 21:04
Bob's right. I've been around.
I'm reminded that I once purchased a ticket to hear Benny Goodman play the Mozart Concerto with the Philadelphia Orchestra under Eugene Ormandy at the Saratoga Performing Arts Center. It was part of a summer festival and the ticket was very expensive as I recall -- probably some outrageous sum like $25.
I traveled to the event from Montreal with my father in great anticipation, only to discover that Goodman had cancelled his appearance at the last minute due to illness. So who stepped in in his place? Anthony Gigliotti, of course. I later heard that Gigliotti got the call to play the concerto only in the afternoon of the performance.
Needless to say, I was not disappointed. Gigliotti's playing was flawless. I only remember thinking that the tempo of the second movement was too fast (i.e. faster than the Marcellus recording that we all worshiped in those days) but, hey, I was only a kid and probably didn't qualify even to have an opinion.
I subsequently heard Benny Goodman live a number of times and once, in Toronto, even met him briefly. Okay, enough name dropping for one day.
Paul Globus
Post Edited (2019-11-05 21:11)
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Author: TomS
Date: 2019-11-06 21:39
Currently, Franklen Cohen with the Chamberfest Cleveland Orchestra in 2015.
Warm, "milky" sound. Laid back playing, not trying to be a "show-off". Lot's of slurring.
Musical, enjoyable and relaxing.
Tom
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2019-11-06 23:38
"Laid back" doesn't describe many recent performances of the Mozart Concerto. "Frenetic and rushed" is more common now. By contrast, the old Louis Cahuzac recording (played on standard modern Boehm clarinet) is quite leisurely and gives time for the music to breathe. Cahuzac's luminous tone illuminates the structure of the music, and the rondo ending is dance-like and satisfying, unencumbered by any gratuitous show of articulation velocity. Cahuzac once wrote an essay on the Mozart in which he warned that "to overshoot the mark, is not to attain it."
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Author: ruben
Date: 2019-11-09 14:51
The Tony Pay version of the Mozart Clarinet Concerto has also something else going for it: a small orchestra, conducted by the late Christopher Hogwood, a fine Mozart conductor. The small orchestra as opposed to a heavyish modern-day symphonic orchestra with strings playing with strong vibrato, brings out the quality of the dialogue between the orchestra and soloist that is to be found in the writing.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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