 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: JP0193
Date: 2019-10-23 18:27
Hello everyone, my first post, very long time coming.
1963-1985 I studied clarinet, Sid Forrest, primarily, Guy Deplus, Steve Barta.
Was pretty accomplished over all those years but during my four years in the Marine Band in Washington DC I studied with Steve Barta, Baltimore Symphonys principal who identified I had been anchor tonguing all along. That ended my pursuits I was 28 and couldn’t start over at that point in my mind. Friends of mine, Louis Baez, associate principal of San Francisco Symphony, and David Thomas continued on to great success in music and I continued on as a Staff Sargent in US Marine Corps as an Administration Chief. I later later started a business in the dental field which I just retired from. End of story.
I am about to begin to re train myself to not anchor tongue. No real expectations but have time to do it. I remember that because my lower lip curled over my lower teeth too much It created a sort of callus which always got so sore after the hours of playing I did. I never let it affect me then but I don’t want that pain again.
I ask for some advise on this. I am not going to employ a teacher, but would like some sort of program that would set up my objectives and goals. Any guidance would be appreciated.
I send my best wishes to any old friends out there as well. Thank you. Gary
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2019-10-23 19:56
As a former anchor tonguer who has retrained many young people: you can do this. Coming from an extensive lay off will help as your "normal" fundamental skills are rusty and malleable.
I do read a separate issue in your post, however: Quote:
I remember that because my lower lip curled over my lower teeth too much It created a sort of callus which always got so sore after the hours of playing I did. I never let it affect me then but I don’t want that pain again.
This is biting. Because you had more lip over your teeth than may be ideal, you had to bite (and blow harder) to control the reed. You may also have had a more resistant set up that exacerbated the issue. Using a mirror, try placing just the fleshy red part of the lip over the teeth.
If you combine less-lip over the teeth with a more-acute clarinet angle (the head up and the bell closer to the body - something to explore) you can increase the tongue-tip's access to the reed.
Then do as everyone does: start simple, keep the wind and embouchure steady, and teach that tongue tip to find a simple repetitive motion that will, eventually, go quickly.
James
PS: If you were in the Marine band with this issue, you were still an incredibly successful musician. You can solve this problem.
Gnothi Seauton
Post Edited (2019-10-23 19:57)
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Author: Ed
Date: 2019-10-23 20:03
Be careful to not use too hard a set up as that will often encourage one to bite down to get the reed to respond the way you want.
As far as anchor tonguing there are a number of successful players who play that way. Do what works for you. I switched from anchor tonguing when I was in college. My tongue speed was never great and I had hoped that might make it improve, but it was not much better either way.
Just work slowly and tongue legato notes to get used to it, gradually increasing speed. Good luck.
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2019-10-23 21:12
Forgive me - What is an "Anchor tongue?" Your tongue is on the reed? Tongues do have a mind of their own sometimes! Ever go to the dentist and when they work on you your tongue seems to follow wherever they seem to be working on that tooth or the area of cleaning your teeth.
You were with Forrest a very long time. Surprised this problem wasn't corrected with your lower lip too. He was known as a teacher that got his students through all of the music needed to advance in their careers. Very technical type of a teacher. To me all of his students sounded very good.
Were you at Peabody? I know Steve pretty well too as we are neighbors now here in Los Angeles area. He uses a paper or something on his lower teeth. I guess he too has had a problem for years with the lower teeth cutting his gums. Some players use that cigarette paper with great success. Maybe 2 sheets of that paper and you fold it a few times and place it over your lower teeth. These players seem to get great relief. At this stage I surely won't advise you to try a double lip approach, because your embouchure is pretty set. This would be crazy advice.
Since you made it into the DC Marine Band, you are surely well trained. They only take the very best players, often players are able to play in major symphonies. So how bad is your tonguing? Some of the band music surely can be a challenge to articulate. When you auditioned you probably beat out around 100 other players for just 1 spot. Anyway, I'm very glad to see you get interested in the music scene again. Way to go. Please email me offline with what you are doing in your life now, where you live, things like that, if interested of course. We need to get you playing and maybe teaching too. Your talents are being wasted in my opinion.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
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Author: JP0193
Date: 2019-10-23 21:12
Thanks your your great advise and confidence. The set up I was using was Casper mouthpiece and 3 1/2 or 4 vandoren reeds, tapering my sides or a German cut out of box.
Also , thanks for the kind words.
amhappy613@yahoo.com
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Author: JP0193
Date: 2019-10-23 21:15
Thanks for the post. Yep, I did investigate many years ago those successful clarinetists that anchor tongued, but choices had to be made at the time. I will definitely keep the set up a major focus. Thanks
amhappy613@yahoo.com
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2019-10-23 21:31
I almost hate to ask since your main story is in the distant past........but,
Was there a PROBLEM with how you sounded? Did you feel that you could/should improve vastly and the anchor tonguing was a literal wall against this progress?
As for the soreness. That could also just be some really sharp teeth, but then you probably already know whether it was or not being in "the business." I use a leather patch (from blue jean leather patches chosen specifically for proper thickness) over my lower teeth to obtain comfort and can go three or four hours easy with no discomfort at all.
Since you are "starting over," and also seem to be open to new ideas I would suggest looking at using a German mouthpiece on your Boehm clarinet if only for a couple years of training.
Hear me out.
So, the German approach is to use a long facing with a small tip opening (1.00mm or less) and a SOFT reed .........standard operating procedure is the use of Vandoren Classic White Master #2 1/2. What you get is a system that allows you to just put it in your mouth and blow.
Bas DeJong has been representing Viotto mouthpieces (the N1 facing) and modifying them (shave a mm from the diameter and a mm off the length of the tenons) to use on Boehm clarinets. Now there are some small intonation issues that would only confuse newbies to the clarinet, but we all know that everyone needs to make adjustments all the time and this is just another few added to the pile (not insurmountable at all).
When I first tried this (and I was sooooo close to not even pairing the N1 Viotto mouthpiece with the soft reeds) my reaction was, "Gosh, this is like being in beginner band all over again!" However, the next day as I was recounting the last day's experience I recalled getting a beautiful sound and good dynamic contrast (very much UNLIKE beginner band). I then spent about two years down this path learning so much about the clarinet that previously didn't know and this was all after JUST retiring from the Army Band program!!!!
Anyway for about $280 US dollars it might be worth a shot.
......................Paul Aviles
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Author: JP0193
Date: 2019-10-23 21:39
Hello,
Yes, was with Forrest many years, 13 years of age until I started with Barta in 1982. I did use cigarette paper to help always. Forrest never identified it, unfortunately. He was a great teacher, I just wish he had figured that one out along the way. My staccato was very good, but not perfect. I could pretty much handle all those band orchestral transcriptions but to push to the final hurdle of landing a symphony position, it was the block that Barta laid on me in 82.
If you are a neighbor of Steve Barta, I have a story I am sure he won’t remember. , I was performing in the pit orchestra, what opera Or operetta I forget, I don’t remember where either at Peabody or the Meyerhoff, but he came down to the pit at intermission introduced himself and wanted to know who was playing principal clarinet, go figure. That was before 82 though.
Thanks for your help and conversation.
amhappy613@yahoo.com
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Author: JP0193
Date: 2019-10-23 21:43
Great I will re read this post more, but good consideration to approach this.
amhappy613@yahoo.com
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2019-10-23 22:31
Whoops!!!
That's actually $180 US dollars.............a bahgan!
...............Paul Aviles
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2019-10-24 08:07
Sure I'll talk to Steve! We share a lot of funny stories! Some are not so clean.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
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Author: TomS
Date: 2019-10-25 06:06
One of my old and intermittent teachers used anchor tonguing. He had a Godzilla tongue, and it was the only way he could make things work for him. Boy! Could he articulate fast! Problem was, his tuning drifted when he tongued long strings of fast notes.
This guy studied with some of the best players, including Russianoff ... but, they didn't notice or didn't try to fix his "defect" ...
Tom
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Author: JP0193
Date: 2019-10-25 17:09
Hello Tom, Yes, I have certainly considered beginning to re strengthen my embouchure again and the other skills by just going back to what I did for so many years. However, it has been just shy of 35 years now since picking up what I spent 20 years of my life completely devoted to. So, as one other post stated to me I am very malleable now. Also, The soreness of my lower lip due to the cut I created because of too much rolled over my lower teeth is not something I want to go back to either.
As I prepare to give the effort towards this now, it will be to correct and hopefully enjoy the love and gratification of playing again. I can only hope I can succeed.at it. Thanks again for you post.
GaryM
amhappy613@yahoo.com
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Author: TomS
Date: 2019-10-25 17:45
For lower teeth guard, if you can find them, the EZO denture cushions can be cut into little squares, folded and placed over the lower teeth. They come in two different thickness. Cigarette paper works, but not as well and comes apart, and finds it's way on you MP rails.
The EZO is like a gauze cloth that is impregnated with paraffin. And, they last a LONG time ... will not come apart like paper. Charles Bay also had a material for padding the lower teeth, but I cut thru it quickly ...
Nowadays, we are so lucky to have so many options for clarinet players. Many, many great innovations, instruments, MPs, reeds ... it's a candy store.
Yeah, I am an old geezer and struggle my way along the clarinet path. My problem is that I stopped playing several times, and never had complete fundamental training on the instrument in the early years. I had 4 excellent lessons when I was 11 years old and then a gap until I was about 28. The dude that taught me originally was a task master ... would qualify as child abuse in today's PC world!
Have fun!
Tom
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Author: Mojo
Date: 2019-10-25 17:47
One advantage of anchor tonguing is playing soft low notes on tenor sax (the first instrument I learned on). You rest the tip of your tongue on your lower lip to make it fatter where contacting the reed. It has a dampening effect that makes for easy subtones on low C and below.
MojoMP.com
Mojo Mouthpiece Work LLC
MojoMouthpieceWork@yahoo.com
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Author: JP0193
Date: 2019-10-25 19:03
Guezz guys, lol, I am getting the feeling I should say forget it to re training to Not anchor tongue, try to find something to ease the ol’ cut in the lower lip, re gain the embousure and go for it like before. In all fairness I would be super happy to get back one quarter of what I used to be!
I sorted all my music yesterday into piles. 1) Sid Forrest lesson notebooks and long tone zerox’s 2) etude books (leaving the JeanJean at the bottom😜) 3) orchestral excepts VOLUMES ( that won’t need much anymore, that day has past!) 4) solo pieces and chamber pieces which I will eventually re attempt and 5) the solo pieces and the Contemporary Music Forum pieces I performed in Washington while clarinetist for the group for 4 years, these will continue to gather cobwebs unless I want to bring myself to an earlier death than what will be natural!😝
I will be looking for that ezo patch I guess as an option. Thanks everyone
Gary M
amhappy613@yahoo.com
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2019-10-25 19:38
Hey, welcome back! Stay in touch too with your progress. I'm sure other players want to know what you do to get back your playing style and special skills. Not just the usual practice but how you do this and what your goals are as you improve. I'm sure you have a lot to offer. Maybe follow Paul's idea of using a light setup for a month or so and see how this feels.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
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