 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Djudy
Date: 2019-10-16 19:48
I’ve read many comments on this most interesting and valuable forum about these vintage instruments (as well as many other fascinating subjects, a true goldmine!). They seem to have been the acme of the art for their era. Regretfully I have not had the opportunity to try either of them.
There are a number of comments here about the R13 and 10G individually, including one that seemed to rank these two equally in playing quality and well above others like the 9*. But nothing on what distinguishes them among themselves. Is it possible to compare, or rather contrast them, or is this just a futile exercise and a case of personal taste?
I’m afraid I may be suffering from a bad case of “chasing the ring & ping”. Thanks for your enlightenments, or direction to previous discussions I may have missed.
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Author: kdk
Date: 2019-10-16 20:57
The main difference during the time the 10G was designed and first marketed was that it was intended to make unnecessary the after-purchase shop work that was needed to make an R-13 off-the-shelf play its best, or even in some cases well. Anthony Gigliotti allowed Selmer to use his Moennig-adjusted (really, in many ways, significantly modified) R-13s as models on which to base the new 10G designs. Gigliotti and the designers at Selmer went on to try to produce a more "centered" tone quality and improve further on Moennig's improvements to the intonation of the R-13s. There were some changes made over a few years to the bore and the keys (for example, angled RH lever keys instead of Buffet's straight ones).
As far as a direct comparison is concerned between 10G and the R-13 of the time, it would almost depend on what specific R-13 you're comparing. If it was one modified by Hans Moennig or one of the many technicians he influenced, the difference would be less that it would be between a 10G and an unmodified R-13.
My only point of comparison is my 1950s R-13 Bb (very definitely from Moennig's shop) to my pair of 10Gs, the Bb being about 10 years older than the A. I like the R-13 very much (it was my only clarinet before I bought the 10G Bb) and still use it as a backup, but I find the tone of the 10G to be a little deeper (to my ear as I play) and the altissimo pitch to be better (the R-13's F#6 and sometimes F6 tended to be slightly flat). I also think the R-13 feels lighter over-all, as if the wood used for the 10G may be denser, or the 10G body may be thicker (more total wood mass).
All of that said, I think in the end it's a "case of personal taste" or, maybe more to the point, a case of comparing specific instruments, especially if newer 10Gs toward the end of their manufacture (when Gigliotti was not as involved in monitoring them) are involved. And, of course, obviously, it's still possible to buy a new R-13 with whatever improvements have been made to its design in the 50 years since it competed here in the U.S. with the 10G.
Karl
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2019-10-16 23:28
This is somewhat personal for me. I went in to shop to purchase my first professional horn in 1977.
At the time I wanted to sound just like Benny Goodman and was hell bent on getting a Selmer (Benny Goodman's choice of horn). The shop proprietor was bullish on the Buffet R13 and had me try both out. His appraisal of the difference with the 10G was spot on. He pointed out that the 10G had undercut tone holes that made it easier to bend notes (gliss. and adjust pitch too). However the Buffet had a "sweeter" sound. He reinforced his claim by asking me to play as softly as possible on both. He was right on the money, the R13 played sweeter and softer than the 10G to quite a noticable degree.
I walked out with the 10G. I wanted to sound just like Benny Goodman
................Paul Aviles
Post Edited (2019-10-17 00:38)
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2019-10-17 02:20
Well guys I was smiling as I read the above posts! We have Moennig and Benny! Undercutting holes! Tony Gigliotti! Selmer/Buffet! The war between the 2 great companies continues close to 50 years later!
I find this amazing and wonderful that they've both remained so strong at resale. Good strong info Karl and Paul for the readers, I have nothing to add.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
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Author: Djudy
Date: 2019-10-17 03:53
In a nutshell !! Thank you both Karl and Paul, for sharing these informations and experiences with me, they are exactly what I hoped for and have given me lots to reflect upon. Bob, so glad this made you smile !
I was prompted to post my original question because while I do not have access to these two instruments, I do have several others and have been continually amazed at the differences to be experienced in playing them. I too wanted to sound just like Benny Goodman when I first & recently encountered the clarinet (and still do, although it’s fast become clear there’s no danger of that!). I thought I had found the Grail when I had the privilege to select my Selmer P series Centered Tone (lovely tone, a dream to play) from among more than a dozen of prime examples of Bts, Cts & 9s from a private collection, and I played happily along, until one day, on a whim (bad case of C.A.S., probably due to previous bouts of the closely related G.A.S. contracted playing jazz guitar), I purchased for a token price a set of Marigaux Bb & A clarinets and blam ! It just turned my thinking around with the sweet tone and ‘ringing’ quality of the notes (for the Bb, the A is not yet overhauled). The Marigaux is not perfect but it’s been enough to move me in a new direction, and so my musings about the above-cited instruments.
So once again thank you both so much for your generosity in sharing this all with me. Very good suggestion Karl , I think the thing I need to do before I go any further is stop in at the local BC rep and try the recent R13, maybe a few others, to form a better sound picture of their characters. I haven’t been back there for a while. I got my E13 from them, a very nice horn for the money says my teacher in frustration over his beautiful Tosca that cracked after 2 years of international professional playing; he’s got a Greenline now. That and the difference in wood density between my oldest Selmer (N°9XX) with my E13 (flagrant in the bell) plus the prices (!) had put me off the idea of ever looking at recent instruments again. I don't play the E13 anymore, I'd kinda' got to thinking that I was a Selmer/Silver King type. But I’m sure the experience will help.
I’m planning to get my flu shot next week but I hope they never find a vaccine for C.A.S.
Cheers all !
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2019-10-17 06:50
Djudy - Nice post!
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
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Author: kdk
Date: 2019-10-17 17:18
I'm actually curious, in light of the Buffet/Selmer rivalry Bob referred to:
How did the 10G compare in playing and design characteristics to the earlier Series 10 and the earlier models. How sharply did Selmer veer away from the 10G design when they stopped making 10Gs?
To be honest, I haven't shopped for a new clarinet since I bought my 10Gs in 1973 and 1982, so I'm really only familiar with either the older models or the newer ones through what I've read about them. I have tended to think of the 10G as a kind of abberation for Selmer, more in the R-13 lineage (since it was based on Gigliotti's Moennig-R-13s) than a "true" Selmer.
How does the 10G fit into Selmer's evolution?
Karl
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Author: Djudy
Date: 2019-10-17 21:56
This may be going OT too much, but I'm not sure we can talk about lineage at least for Buffet Crampon these days, given how they've gone from the unique R13 model to 11 professional house models today, including 2 R13s , the cylindrical pierce Tradition and the '50s nostalgia Vintage and not counting the Greenline versions. I'd like to know how many they actually sell in each category.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2019-10-18 08:24
Technically though, the Greenline is ONLY a difference of material. It is an avant-garde for the future where African Blackwood will no longer be available because it will have become extinct along with the dodo bird.
Also I find that using a material that DOES NOT change shape over time due to the swelling and contracting of exposure to moisture allows you constancy of pitch that cannot be achieved with wood..........with all due respect to all you wood lovers out there.
...................Paul Aviles
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Author: EbClarinet
Date: 2019-11-09 05:57
This is really begging the question I it the player or the instrument. I've already posted on this and people say it's the player. I heard a woman on a Patricola professional clarinet and I couldn't tell the difference of a R13!!! So it was the player. I've been able to make my student model clarinet sound like a professional clarinetist but I just can't pinpoint what I'm doing inside my mouth or with my embouchure to reproduce this professional tone all the time. Any ideas?
https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/mbtldsongministry/
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2019-11-09 14:38
Ebclarinet - Instruments help. It's actually often the bore sizes inside the horns which can add to that sound you want.
I think practicing the correct way and a great mouthpiece is a must. The special sound comes from good mouthpieces and a fantastic embouchure.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2019-11-09 15:41
The key is producing enough pressure differential between what air pressure is in you mouth vs. the air pressure of the air column in the instrument (which is zero). I find it easiest to experience if you allow your cheeks to expand. With cheeks puffed out (ONLY FOR THE SAKE OF FEELING, NOT FOR PLAYING!!!!) you should feel a mild stretching all around where the cheeks attach.
Another good analogy is to use as much active "pushing" as you would to blow up a moderately resistant balloon. This is the case no matter what strength reed or openness of mouthpiece you use. In fact there really need not be ANY resistance to your reed/mouthpiece system; the easier the better!
That all said as a dedicated musician you SHOULD want an instrument that makes achieving all the musical elements over which you have control............easy (or rather, as easy as possible). And that is where the subjectivity and variety comes in.
..............Paul Aviles
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