 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Linus Travelli
Date: 2001-06-28 04:20
I just saw the Red Violin and I was wondering whether or not there are any ancient clarinets that are worth millions like some of th eviolins today.
would old clarinets still play well? what about old violins?
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Author: Linus Travelli
Date: 2001-06-28 04:21
Do professional violinists prefer to play on really old violins?
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2001-06-28 04:49
Really, really good Amati, Strads, et al., yes. And they're very old. The violin has existed as an instrument for much longer than the clarinet, and produces sounds by a very different principle. The older woods and varnishes produce some unique sounds.
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Author: susannah
Date: 2001-06-28 06:32
These violins do make beautiful and inuque sounds. What one must rememberis that these were the very best violins. A crappy violin made two hundred years ago would not turn into a good one. Basically, it is the varnishes they used back then which age to make the wood, (resonating chamber) have a quite different sound quality.
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Author: Eoin McAuley
Date: 2001-06-28 08:38
The answer to the original question is: No, old clarinets do not play really well. There have been a number of advances in design in the last 100 years which make the more modern ones much better. Pads and corks wear out over time, so a really old clarinet would have to be reconditioned with modern cork and pads.
The main resonator in a violin is the wood in the body of the violin. The main resonator in a clarinet is the air inside the clarinet. The sound produced by the clarinet is much more affected by the shape of the air inside than by the material which the clarinet is made of. This means that there is no advantage to using old clarinets.
Clarinetists are lucky in that even the top of the range professional models are relatively inexpensive. Other instrument players often have to spend a large amount of money to buy a decent instrument if they want to pursue a career as a soloist. I heard an interview with a young (age 21) Irish solo cello player, where he was talking about spending about $80,000 for his first decent cello.
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Author: bob gardner
Date: 2001-06-28 14:36
Yes to the first question. I have two and am willing to sell one of them.
have a great day.
Bob
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Author: Keil
Date: 2001-06-28 16:48
As far as clarinets go, from what i understand clarinets tend to reach their playing peak at about 4 years and "blow-out" at about 7. But like my previous post there are some exceptions.
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Author: Erika
Date: 2001-06-28 18:45
I had a teacher once tell me that she just heard about a lady buying an old violin for 1 million dollars (she wasn't exaggerating). I don't know if the instrument was a strad or what! The majority of violinist prefer playing on an aged instrument.
But, I recently read an article on old violins and great violin makers. Sometimes violinists will buy a very old expensive instruments, and then have a replica of the instrument made by a very skilled craftsman. Some of these replicas came very, very close to immitating the sound, as well as the appearence, of these great old instruments.
Once, a group of about 100 people from different backgrounds, ranging from professional musicians, people who just enjoyed listening to classical music, to people who had no knowlege whatsoever on violins sat and listened to a concert violinist play behind a screen. The concert violinist played a work on the real strad, and then he played a work on the immitation strad. When the audience was asked which one was the real strad, about half of them guessed wrong. Even some of the professional musicians guessed wrong. So, in conclusion to this experiment, it shows that the true quality of the instrument is really determined by the musician. So when a violinist(as well as a clarinetist, and most other musicians) chooses an instrument, they choose the instrument that is easiest for them to produce the sound that they want. So, it really in the end doesn't matter what the year is, or what the label says. The quality is all determined by the musician.
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Author: Micaela
Date: 2001-06-28 22:09
I believe the most expensive violin was a Guarneri which was rumored to have gotten $4 million. I think it belonged to Yehudi Menuhin. Most pro violinists play on old violins, but there are also good new violins being made (some say they are as good as the old ones and they are certainly cheaper). The most expensive old violins are usually Italian, with French and German instruments next. French bows can be ridiculously expensive ($70,000?!). If you go too far back, you get Baroque violins, which are a different instrument.
On the clarinet front, I heard a CD once played on a 1900 clarinet. Believe me, you'd prefer the modern version. The intonation was spotty and the altissimo notes piercing. Besides, the thing only has four or five keys. It's a lot harder to play!
Linus- What did you think of that movie? I didn't like it very much. The China section was pretty good, though. The soundtrack was great- the music was by John Corigliano.
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Author: Daniel Bouwmeester
Date: 2001-06-28 22:46
I agree with Erika,
I've once met Tibor Varga, the great violinist. He lives in Switzerland not far from where I live, and I've questionned him about Violins.
He told me that the violin didn't influence so much the quality of the sound but that the violinist was the key factor. He told me you had to learn to unserstand the instrument as if it was your wife, and that once you've got to this point you could play it to use the full potential of the instrument.
His father was a luthier, and Tibor spent a lot of time in his dad's workshop. Often there would be customers that would come to the workshop when Tibor was playing, and would say "What a beautifull sound, it must be an excellent instrument". Of course the violin was rubbish but they nevertheless sold it for a really high price.
Talking of old clarinets, I've seen a couple in my favorite woodwind shop in Geneva (Servette Music, René Haggman). In his collection he has a Xavier Lefèbre clarinet of 1811, which he has reconditionned totally. She plays beautifull. But the clarinet has got many design faults (holes at the wrong place --> detuned notes, airy notes..etc). He's got also a Schmidt clarinet ... which has really interesting systems (ancestor of the Schmidt Koelbe system). It's quite interesting to see how systems have evolved with time.
When talking of clarinets and music in general. One suggests that people were less perfectionnists about quality of music than today. For clarinets, the systems which existed at the time (18th - 19th century) were satisfactory for musicians.
The systems have nevertheless improved, and many well known systems have become references (Boehm, Schmidt-Koelbe, Oehler). BUT, there are two ways of thinking when talking about clarinet systems.
The first way is the conservative way. At the time perhaps when the Boehm system got wellknown, people thought... "That's it we don't need to improve clarinets anymore". And everyone started to make Boehm clarinet, and are still doing it now. When you start improve systems on the clarinets by changing position of holes, adding keys, many people will tell you that you're breaking the tradition, and that it's just a waste of time. In France and in U.K. maybe U.S. too, most people think this way.
In Germany most clarinets are manufactured in small workshops. The luthiers that work there try to make the best they can out of the piece of wood they work on, also because they take enough time to do it properly (not like french factories which I will not mention). If the luthier has an engineering mind, he will also try to invent new systems to improve acoustic properties. German people are more likely to accept new things than french people. When the boehm system was brought to France for the first time, people probably would of laughed at it. But nevertheless 90 % of the clarinets in the world today are Boehm.
I am going to get new instruments pretty soon.
I'm hesitating between a very well selected Buffet Rekeyed by René Haggman from Servette music Geneva and a German Boehm reform clarinet.
René fills up wholes on buffets, redrills them to get a good tuning overall, makes some special key systems inspired of german systems and systems from other instrument (oboe ..etc). The result is quite impressive... The mediocre buffet can really become a superb instrument.
But still, as John Davies, my London teacher says : "Nothing replaces hours of practice"
For deeper study I would recommend Brymer's book "The clarinet", or contact Erich Hoeprich (the guy that built Stadler's original instrument for Mozart's concerto), or even René Haggman in Geneva.
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Author: Dee
Date: 2001-06-28 23:27
Keil wrote:
>
> As far as clarinets go, from what i understand clarinets
> tend to reach their playing peak at about 4 years and
> "blow-out" at about 7. But like my previous post there are some
> exceptions.
When it takes millions of years for dust laden winds to affect rocks, how can our puny breath affect a clarinet in only 7 years. There's a lot of things that can go wrong but "blow-out" isn't even reasonable to consider. Unless you've shattered the clarinet or something equally drastic, it can be returned to like new playing condition at very reasonable cost if one cares to.
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Author: Keil
Date: 2001-06-28 23:35
Dee, i'm not talking about the wood although the wood itself has probably been through some extremes... intonation becomes a major factor to consider as your clarinet gets up in age, i'm talking about the pads and the mechanism. It's easy to say that with a little money one can repair anything. That goes without saying. With a little bit to alot of money one can buy out the New York Philharmonic... the question isn't whether or not it's possible to be repaired but rather there is a million dollar clarinet out there because of it's age. Let's stay on topic sweety!
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2001-06-29 00:09
Keil wrote:
> the question isn't whether or
> not it's possible to be repaired but rather there is a million
> dollar clarinet out there because of it's age.
There ain't no such animal.
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Author: Todd W.
Date: 2001-06-29 00:13
Keil--
It seems to me "Sweety" was right on topic, the topic being whether there are any old clarinets worth a million dollars. Your previous post implied that there probably are NOT because, in your understanding, they usually "blow out" in about seven years. Dee was rebutting that statement in a logical way. From postings I've read on other threads, it seems she has a lot of company among those who work on clarinets professionally and semi-professionally. That is, clarinets do NOT blow out; they inevitably need adjustment and reconditioning (just as old violins do), but given the proper care they will play just as well--if not better--than when they were new.
I think Anji is accompanying a choir tour in Europe, so I'll make you the offer I'm sure he would make if he were in town: If you have any "blown out" seven-year-old clarinets you want to get rid of, send them to me.
If you do, you can call me "Sweety" too.
Todd W
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Author: Keil
Date: 2001-06-29 05:21
touche Todd... now if we're done playing cat and mouse... i was merely saying what i heard from my teacher and i have every reason to trust what he says. Especially considering that Dee and you mean absolutely NOTHING to me as far as clarinet goes!
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Author: KevinS
Date: 2001-06-29 05:42
Keil,
Sorry to hear you say this about Dee and Todd. I think that EVERYONE on this board, from Jerry, still in clarinet boot camp, to Ken Shaw, Dee and Mark Weinstein all have something they can teach us about the clarinet, just as I'm sure we've made contributions to the knowledge of these and other people.
That's why we come here! Mark Charette has graciously provided a forum where all clarinetists can come to learn, teach and enjoy all things clarinet.
Best of luck to you.
Kevin Stockdale
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Author: willie
Date: 2001-06-29 06:20
A recent study of several old fiddles like the Stradis was done and several things were found out. One of the things that gave those old fiddles their sound was a bacteria found in the that part of Italy that had a positive effect on the wood. Keep in mind these were litteraly hand made including the the varnishes, glues, even the chemicals (no hardware stores back then) to wash and help bend (warp) the woods into the desired shapes. The violin vertuosso Anne Frank carries around one of these that she paid 3 Million for. But then fiddles don't have years of slobber blown through them either. Check your NPR (National Public Radio) listings as they air a really informative program about this now and then.
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Author: Todd W.
Date: 2001-06-29 18:21
Keil--
I'm crushed! If you had said that Dee and I mean nothing to you, I could handle it, but to say that she and I mean "absolutely NOTHING" to you . . . well I'll TRY to go on . . . .
Seriously, I think I understand what you are saying. You know and trust your teacher and you don't know Dee or me or what our clarinet "credentials" are. [Of course, by the same token, I don't know you or your teacher. ]
The give and take on this BB (some are better at giving than taking) is part of the fun of it for me. I like to think we all post in the spirit of friendly inquiry to advance our collective knowledge, but I also think the "coldness" of electronic communication leaves a lot of room for misinterpretation. Which means, IMHO, we need to be as clear and courteous as possible.
I did tweak you (I hoped humorously) on the "sweety" thing, but I do also (seriously) hear and respect your (and your teacher's) opinion about clarinet blow out.
Yours, in the spirit of friendly inquiry,
Todd W
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Author: Mike B.
Date: 2001-06-29 19:58
To call someone "Sweety" you don't know well is dismissive, derogatory, and disrespectful.
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Author: Dr. Jacob Mathias
Date: 2002-06-18 03:52
The clarinet that Anton Stadler may be worth something.
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The Clarinet Pages
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