 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: ruben
Date: 2019-10-12 14:07
I have been playing baroque music on the clarinet for the whole of my adult life. I don't mean the few baroque pieces actually written for the clarinet (or chalumeau). I mean transposing from oboe, recorder, flute, hautbois d'amour (on the A clarinet-no transposition required), etc. However, I don't play baroque music in public; just with friends for the pleasure. It would seem a pity to be deprived of about 75 years of great music.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2019-10-12 19:43
I'm not sure if there is a question intended or you're only trying to start a discussion. I don't see anything that can possibly be wrong with playing any style of music on any instrument for private pleasure. But even in public, I don't think playing Baroque music on a clarinet is something that will invite a lightening strike from (Bach) on high that will cut you down in the act. Any more than playing Foster songs or Joplin rags.
Bach didn't compose for a 20th century symphony orchestra, either. But many people enjoy arrangements of his organ music for full symphony orchestra. If you enjoy playing Handel on a clarinet, why not. If your performance is meant to be heard by others, they get to choose whether to listen or avoid.
I don't see any reason for a player's limiting his repertoire to music since 1700, either. There's earlier music that can be great fun to play.
Karl
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Author: dorjepismo ★2017
Date: 2019-10-12 20:17
I've done a little baroque stuff in public, mostly trio sonatas. It seems to go over fine. There are a lot of different ways of thinking about clarinet sound and style; some work and sound appropriate with baroque music and some don't.
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Author: ruben
Date: 2019-10-12 20:35
Just trying to get a discussion going; in answer to your indirect question. Reed trios (oboe, clarinet, bassoon) playing the Bach three-part inventions sound very good and "organ-like". As for playing in public, even playing Baroque music on modern instruments isn't deemed politically correct these days and is hard to get away with. Bach has virtually disappeared from the programmes of many major symphony orchestras.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2019-10-12 23:11
ruben wrote:
> As for playing in public, even playing Baroque
> music on modern instruments isn't deemed politically correct
> these days and is hard to get away with. Bach has virtually
> disappeared from the programmes of many major symphony
> orchestras.
>
Well, we in Philadelphia get to hear his big sacred choral pieces occasionally. In recent seasons the Philadelphia Orchestra has done St. Matthew Passion and their concertmaster, David Kim, has played the 2nd violin concerto. They're performing the B minor Mass this December. And the Stokowski transcriptions of the organ music still show up on their summer programs and special (non-subscription) retrospect/nostalgia concerts (like reprises of the original Fantasia music). He isn't represented as extensively as Beethoven or Brahms (or Tchaikovsky or Ravel). But maybe that has something to do with all of the musicians who have to be paid not to play when Bach is on the program.
Smaller, maybe less internationally known ensembles' programs may include more Bach. Except for the big choral pieces, he seems to have become the property of chamber orchestras. And "politically correct" or "stylistically authentic" is probably more an issue for internationally-acclaimed and **recorded** ensembles, conductors and solo performers whose careers and followings depend on critical reaction more than local or regional performers may.
Karl
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Author: Tom H
Date: 2019-10-14 08:02
The one time I played Baroque at a concert was on Eb clarinet unaccompanied playing Bach's Chaconne for violin. Great challenge and lots of fun.
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Author: ruben
Date: 2019-10-14 12:22
Tom: sounds great! Is it on YouTube?
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: Paintrunner
Date: 2019-10-15 08:24
Went to see Arcadia Winds, an Australian wind quintet at Melbourne Recital Centre last week: on the programme was Bach's Trio Sonata for Organ no 6 in g. It's in three voices, so players came in or out according to which organ stops might have been used. Worked well. Should be up on the MRC YouTube channel by middle of next month.
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Author: ruben
Date: 2019-10-18 18:13
My latest foray-not to be confused with Fauré-in Baroque music: we read through Bach's art of the Fugue with a violin-clarinet-trombone-bassoon ensemble. Sounded really good.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2019-10-19 01:51
> Members of the San Francisco Symphony clarinet section play and arrangement of J. S. Bach. >
One time when we were playing for Gustav Leonhardt, he stopped and said: "Someone in the violas is playing 'musically'. I don't like it."
Tony
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2019-10-19 02:27
Tony- did you watch the whole video? After 2 minutes I was annoyed: too much left shoulder movement and protruding neck veins... but after 10 minutes I was impressed. Of course, it has nothing at all to do with actual Baroque music, just like similar arrangements of Bach for saxophone quartet. But as an arrangement for clarinet quartet (notable for the use of 2 bass clarinets), I have to say that I was impressed by both the arrangement and the playing.
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2019-10-19 02:34
Ruben- in response to your original question: No, I don't think that the clarinet is an excellent Baroque instrument. There are a few excellent pieces written for clarinet by Baroque composers. But there are innumerable excellent pieces written for violin, flute, cornetto, harpsichord, voice, trumpet, recorder, etc. You can try to play this repertoire on a clarinet, but does it really add anything? Perhaps more entertaining for the players than for the listeners?
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2019-10-19 03:27
One can just as well ask if the piano is an excellent Baroque instrument. It did not yet exist in anything like the modern form in Bach's time ( I believe he did see some sort of primitive prototype of it though) and he never wrote anything for it, yet performances by Richter, Martha Argerich, Edwin Fischer, Rosalyn Tureck, Glen Gould (in his less eccentric moments) and many others have certainly brought audiences great musical pleasure. Of course the clarinet can not convincingly play chords (despite multiphonics) and must omit much, yet when I hear certain clarinetists such as Istvan Kohan play Bach, it gives me (and I suspect many others) much pleasure and is more than just a closet performance for the amusement of the player. For instance:
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=Bach+sonata+g+minor+Kohan+clarinet.
Post Edited (2019-10-19 05:11)
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Author: ruben
Date: 2019-10-19 12:04
Seabreeze: your comparison with the piano is very good. Yet there are people who don't approve of Baroque being played on the piano. Scarlatti, Rameau, Bach sound great on the piano. The piano as a continuo instrument, however, sounds terrible. Funny that, isn't it? It sounds good as a solo instrument but not in an accompanying role.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2019-10-19 15:06
The problem is not 'the clarinet', but rather how it is played, as Istvan Kohan shows in his excellent clips.
The SF players show no understanding of how their 'standard, orchestral' style is inappropriate to the music. The texture is therefore muddy, and they think that terraced dynamics are musically effective. So we get inappropriate echoton effects contrasted with vigorous (particularly bass clarinet) playing. That contributes to the selfconscious nature of the whole enterprise.
You say 'it has nothing to do with actual baroque music', but I think it could have, and should have.
One of the reasons why it's difficult to make a piano an effective continuo instrument is its slow decay, compared to harpsichord, clavichord and so on. It can be done, but it requires a different, more detached style (you can't modulate the decay.)
The SF people could have used what I've called 'beginning-oriented phrasing' and done much better. In such a style, you DO modulate the decay, and clarinets are an excellent vehicle for that.
Tony
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Author: ruben
Date: 2019-10-19 17:16
The pianoforte seems to work better for continuo-for the reason you have stated. It's sometimes used to accompany recitativo in operas, and very effectively.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2019-10-20 01:50
In truth, the SF clarinet quartet are not playing an arrangement of Bach's Chaconne, but rather an arrangement of Busoni's piano transcription of Bach's piece. So it's an arrangement of a transcription. Busoni liberally adapted the piece to suit the modern piano of his time and the whole spirit of his version embodies the late 19th century aesthetic. It's full of hairpins, terrace dynamics, rapid-fire staccato and thick muddy chordal writing.
This clarinet quartet version really has little to do with actual baroque music, and I don't agree that playing in a more informed 18th century style would necessarily improve the interpretation, just as it wouldn't with Busoni's piano piece.
Tony- if rapid decay is important for continuo playing, do you think we should rule out the organ as a continuo instrument? ;-)
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2019-10-20 02:03
No, and it’s an interesting question.
It’s always interested me that Mozart called the organ “the King of all instruments” and I have more to say about that.
Tony
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Author: ruben
Date: 2019-10-20 12:57
Liquorice: Glad to get you in the discussion! Would you call the pianoforte a "rapid-decay" instrument? (I had never heard this term before, but I think I realise what is meant by it). Has your opera orchestra used it instead of a harpsichord as a continuo for Mozart operas? If so, how did you like it?
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2019-10-20 14:15
Hi Ruben,
I’m not sure which instrument you are talking about when you say “pianoforte”? Do you mean a fortepiano as would have been used in Mozart’s time? They certainly have a quicker decay than a modern piano. We use them in some classical operas. There’ll be one in our Cosi fan tutte performance this afternoon, where I will be sure to be mindful of Tony Pay’s remarks on bar hierarchy in the aria “ È amore un ladroncello” :-)
Post Edited (2019-10-20 14:18)
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Author: ruben
Date: 2019-10-20 15:54
Liquorice: yes, I do indeed mean a Mozart-period piano. Some confusion as to the terminology. In Italian, "pianoforte" simply means "piano". In French it means what was used until about the time of Schubert.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2019-10-20 22:35
Well, the words 'piano', and 'pianoforte' in English currently refer to the instruments used from the Schubert/Beethoven period onwards, including all the subsequent developments.
Thus, the instrument that Tureck, Gould et al played Bach on would be either 'a piano' or 'a pianoforte’.
But, earlier instruments are now termed 'fortepianos'.
This is a modern move: in the Eighteenth century the terms 'pianoforte' and 'fortepiano' were interchangeable.
I say this not to correct you, but to be clear what we're talking about.
Tony
[edited to correct grammar]
Post Edited (2019-10-21 13:56)
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Author: ruben
Date: 2019-10-20 23:46
Thank you, Tony and there was a misunderstanding due to the "chassé-croisé" between languages and "faux amis". I was in a record shop once and some Italian customers asked the sales person for a complete collection of works by Ravel for pianoforte. The shop keeper said that Ravel never wrote for the pianoforte, at which time I intervened and explained that they merely wanted Ravel's piano works. Very confusing all of this! Also, please have no qualms about correcting me. I always welcome a learning experience.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: Paintrunner
Date: 2019-10-21 04:01
Arcadia Winds at MRC. Bach starts about 10 minutes in:
https://youtu.be/zPFvTGaShdc
R
(OT, but here's Lloyd playing Weber Gran Duo at MRC a few weeks ago, about 24 mins in:
https://youtu.be/GLX3yC5pu1I )
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Author: clarinetwife
Date: 2019-10-23 18:50
In terms of texture timbre, etc. of course the pieces are going to sound different with clarinet or any modern instrument. I understand that pieces are composed with particular instrumentation. CPE Bach wrote his Trio Sonatas for Clarinet, Bassoon, and Pianoforte specifically because it was a new sound he wanted to convey. But is this an offense against the music or the composer to play earlier works as is being discussed here? I don't think so. My woodwind trio plays the C minor Fugue from the WTC with flute, Clarinet, and Bass Clarinet. It's just different, just as when we play Satin Doll or Don't Get Around Much Anymore it is just different. People seem to enjoy hearing it.
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