 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: GBK
Date: 2007-02-02 17:29
A colleague of mine, playing his Prestige R13, had the nylon pin/dowel that connects the left hand F#/C# key, snap last evening, during a dress rehearsal.
Needless to say, he is trying to get the clarinet repaired today.
I have heard of this happening before and the nylon pin/dowel design certainly seems like an accident waiting to happen.
What is the solution? Carry a few extra nylon pins/dowels with you at all times?
Curious as to why Buffet went to this design (it has had to be at least since the mid 1990's.)
Perhaps here is just another reason to use older Buffets, with the attached metal pin/fish skin linkage?
...GBK
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-02-02 17:54
They're a push fit pin - the narrow end that fits in the LH levers is 1.8mm and the round end is 2.4mm in diameter.
Probably best to carry spares as they will render the clarinet useless when they break.
Maybe tap the ends of the levers using a 2mm tap and screw in an adjusting screw with a rounded off head - I know the Howarth oboe screws are ideal having a 2mm thread and a 2.4mm head which can be rounded off to fit into the holes in the connecting levers.
If you think their use on soprano clarinets is a worry, they use loads more of them on their basset horns and ow C basses!
So I carry spares with me just to be on the safe side.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
Independent Woodwind Repair Specialist
Oboes, Clarinets and Saxes
NOT A MEMBER OF N.A.M.I.R.
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2013-10-25 14:20)
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Author: stevesklar
Date: 2007-02-02 17:58
Howarth oboe screws
sounds like a great long term solution.
and how does one go about getting those ?
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2007-02-02 18:00
This is just one of the major annoyances that come along with owning a Buffet...they simply have got to reconsider this design flaw...it is also something they have went with longer than the 90s.my first R13 had this in the mid 80s.
David Dow
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Author: LesterV
Date: 2007-02-02 18:04
Nylon seems to be a poor choice of material for the application as it gets brittle with age and I suspect that is the root of the problem. If mine ever breaks I think I will replace it with a part made from a carbon fiber composite. Suitable material is available from many hobby shops for about a dollar.
Since most people would have their favorite tech replace the part when it breaks, perhaps Buffet doesn't realize the parts are breaking. It should be a very simple matter for the factory to change a more suitable material.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-02-02 18:30
Here's a list of Howarth stockists in the USA, they might carry Howarth adjusting screws (or point screws which have the same thread and head size):
Nora Post
The McFarland Double Reed Shop
MMI (Midwest Musical Imports) (USA)
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
Independent Woodwind Repair Specialist
Oboes, Clarinets and Saxes
NOT A MEMBER OF N.A.M.I.R.
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: kenb
Date: 2007-02-02 20:10
Another victim; fortunately my repairman carried a number of spares, which in itself says something... I wonder if Buffet is listening...
I now put my faith in German engineering
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Author: Merlin
Date: 2007-02-02 20:22
I've had this happen before. Carry spares is definitely the best solution; Buffet really should send them out with the instrument.
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Author: Alseg
Date: 2007-02-02 20:25
There is reference to the use of these plastic devices in "The Clarinet Revealed"
Perhaps it is avail. from van Cott
The idea was to avoid noises and preclude the need for metallurgical adjustments.
Teflon coating might be on the outside of those pipe(let)s, but the support material is probably a PVC tube.
Back to the drawing board for Buffet.
Mark Jacobi swaps them out in a pro set-up, I think. He mentioned to me that this particular key and rod develop a lot of looseness.
Former creator of CUSTOM CLARINET TUNING BARRELS by DR. ALLAN SEGAL
-Where the Sound Matters Most(tm)-
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Author: Iceland clarinet
Date: 2007-02-02 20:50
I've owned prestige Buffet models for about 6 years and the nylon pin on the Eb lever have broke 3 times(1 time I accedently grab too firmly around the lower part). This is what I like least about Buffet clarinets.
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Author: Terry Stibal
Date: 2007-02-02 21:35
Selmer horns don't seem to have this problem. I've played a pair of Series 9s for some thirty odd year or so, with never a broken pin between them.
Buffet horns sound good enough, but I've always felt that they felt "flimsy" compared to B & H, Selmer or Leblanc. This sort of thing is what people reference when they talk about a piece of equipment being junk that breaks without provocation. Surely the end sound isn't that much greater to have to put up with it...
leader of Houston's Sounds Of The South Dance Orchestra
info@sotsdo.com
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2007-02-02 21:56
The metal pins are no picnic either. Unless you wrap them with goldbeater's skin, they click and clank constantly. Think extra pins are fiddly? Try carrying around tiny whisps of goldbeater's skin, which has to be cut into tiny circles, carefully folded over the pin and then jammed into the hole without falling off or getting blown away. A single thickness is usually not enough, and with two layers, it binds.
I thought the pins were Teflon, not nylon, but I'm probably wrong. David Hite's site used to have a page on Buffet pivot screws with some kind of plastic on the end, but I tried www.jdhite.com on the Wayback Machine and couldn't find the page.
Perhaps the solution would be to keep the metal pins and put nylon or Teflon liners in the holes where the pins go.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-02-02 21:59
After so much use the plastic can fatigue - if you think of the amount of pressure they have to endure during their use to open a key that's held closed by a strong spring, or to close a key that closes another key in conjunction with it ensuring both pads are closed o their toneholes, so after so much time they finally give in.
It's not only through playing or rough handling that they can break - the spring loaded clip thing that holds the low E key closed during transport can stress the pin on the low E lever - before they used these, they used to use an elastic band to close the low E cup during shipping.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
Independent Woodwind Repair Specialist
Oboes, Clarinets and Saxes
NOT A MEMBER OF N.A.M.I.R.
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: hartt
Date: 2007-02-02 23:41
In response to Ken's suggestion of nylon or teflon liners.............
Some repair techs already use this. John Butler uses a very thin tubing over the pin.
I've tried the fishskin, etc. For longevity and quietness, I use a small piece of saran wrap (doubled if need be). Putting a dab of cork grease on the pin holds the saran wrap while the key is inserted.
Once reassembled, if the piece of saran wrap is too large, hold a match near it and it will shrink it to just the pin area.
Another option is to use a piece of heat shrink tubing.
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Author: Terry Stibal
Date: 2007-02-03 04:11
I've got the Teflon tubing on the side hole closed by the third finger bottom joint. Much better than what was there before, which was either light duty plastic or some other workaround.
Even the most robust of plastics (that horrid phenol thermoset stuff that was so common back in the 1920s and 1930s - old telephones used to be made of it) will go brittle over time. The plasticizer - the chemical component that keeps the resin flexible - migrates over the years, and the resin gets brittle, and that's it.
The sleeve, not being used in shear, with the metal pin in the center sounds like a better solution, but a thin section like that might be as hard to handle and place as the skin in the traditional style. (For the record, my horns don't clack, and (even if they did) a little noise (listen to most bassoons in action some time to hear a lot of noise) is better that a clarinet that can't be played.
leader of Houston's Sounds Of The South Dance Orchestra
info@sotsdo.com
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Author: stevesklar
Date: 2007-02-03 05:04
For metal pins I always put on a teflon liner for all metal pin sockets. I have various thicknesses of teflon that I use depending upon how much play is there.
As for the Buffet pins. I'm sure my customers would love a long term fix, rather than a long term supply of plastic pins handed to them.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-02-03 05:54
Leblanc have been fitting a Teflon liner in the connecting levers for the metal pins to operate against for some time.
On my old R13 Eb I melted plastic onto the pins which coated them fairly evenly, and while the plastic was still molten I put them into the holes which so far has remained noise free.
But on metal pins I usually cut the bottom corners of a self sealing plastic bag, put some thick oil on the ins and then with the bits of bag opened up and coverig the pins I put them in place. Another drop of gearbox oil to the connecting lever holes keeps things running smoothly and silently. The plastic has some give in it, but it holds out well.
The biggest problem is with LH levers that have an Eb lever running in between them, so the F#/C# connecting lever is much longer and therefore there's more stress on the pins due to there being a slight outward movement of the pin during operation relative to the hole in the connecting arm, so the hole really has to be at a slight angle and slightly elongated which means the pin will need some lateral movement to prevent it binding.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
Independent Woodwind Repair Specialist
Oboes, Clarinets and Saxes
NOT A MEMBER OF N.A.M.I.R.
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: jmsa
Date: 2007-02-03 07:23
I have found that the perfect remedy is to use a nylon bristle from a nylon hair brush that is pretty much unbreakable. They can be found in many retail outlets such as drug , variety, and department stores.
jmsa
Post Edited (2007-02-03 07:25)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-02-03 07:32
... Or a length of nylon harp string of the right gauge from the excess trimmed off a newly fited one and from the old one that broke. These can be shaped by mounting in a bench motor chuck, filed, papered up and polished.
But that's if you use nylon strings (I prefer gut as they're much better for tone), and if you play harp.
But it's easier for me just to modify an adjusting screw that's got a knackered slot in it's head.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
Independent Woodwind Repair Specialist
Oboes, Clarinets and Saxes
NOT A MEMBER OF N.A.M.I.R.
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2007-02-03 08:05
I don't find the nylon to be much quieter than the metal. thinking about it, it seems that the construction is easier/cheaper.
I have tried all these ideas- and teflon, fish skin, etc. don't make it much quieter. smoother? yes. but not totally quiet.
as for breaking... I have never experienced this at all. To be honest, until now, I have never even heard of the nylon breaking.
-S
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Author: sherman
Date: 2007-02-03 13:42
"The metal pins are no picnic either". So sayeth Mr. Shaw.
I would beg to differ with that as being simply incorrect. We are talking about a complete breakdown possibly during a concert or a rehearsal. I have had students who have had this occur and they are finished with that concert or rehearsal at the time of breakage. The metal fittings, which most quality instruments have, never have that problem, a noisy fitting at least works, the old broken-dowel does not, and spares just don't do it. A clarinet with those fittings is , as said here and by many revewers is an accident waiting to happen. Try fitting in a spare while counting rests....or one could always quickly transfer clarinets and transpose the part at sight.
The repair if personally done , can take up to an hour in peace and quiet, so one would hope that manufacturers of these instruments would get the message. I am delighted this problem has finally been exposed for anyone to see and contemplate prior to spending a fortune.
Sherman Friedland
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2007-02-03 14:14
Sherman -
I agree with you. I was only offering a possible explanation of why Buffet switched to nylon. Obviously, in solving one group of problems, they created even worse new ones, and they ought to go back to metal.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-02-03 14:25
Here's a snippet of the writeup on the Buffet Elite from Howarth's single reed catalogue (1989):
"Nylon has replaced the existing metal pivots on the side B and C# levers. This cures the recurrent problem of key noise - a welcome modification for players and repairers alike."
Provided they're well greased they don't make too much noise, but more often than not they aren't well greased and they're a loose fit in the connecting levers.
Though even if they're well greased there's still nothing to stop them from breaking.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
Independent Woodwind Repair Specialist
Oboes, Clarinets and Saxes
NOT A MEMBER OF N.A.M.I.R.
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2007-02-03 14:33
and they are still noisy. the nylon is a little LESS noisy, but really... It's not even close to the adjective 'quiet'.
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Author: BobD
Date: 2007-02-03 18:08
The main problem with nylon is the same as the main problem with wood which is changes in humidity. Of the plastics that Buffet could have chosen nylon is probably the worst.
Bob Draznik
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Author: sherman
Date: 2007-02-03 20:19
"Nylon has replaced the existing metal pivots on the side B and C# levers. This cures the recurrent problem of key noise - a welcome modification for players and repairers alike."
I beg your pardon? This is a dodge, totally.
Look, I'm playing the solo or one of them from the Tchaikovsky 6th symphony, and it is beautiful.....someone leans over to someone else and says," Boy aren't his connectors noisy!, Spoils the music" Never happen, or in a recital never in a hundred years.
It's shoddy,poor manufacture and I am pleased that this thread is running. I,like others have had the students come in weeping sans clarinet, which had to be sent away because that dowel broke, never because of noisy metal.
Actually in my opinion, the best solution is the oldest one I know: No connectors at all; you press the key and it lifts open or closes the key, and it will never break. Selmer and Leblanc use metal. Yamaha is the only one I know that simply uses the fulcrum to lift and open or close the key.
Sherman Friedland
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Author: Terry Stibal
Date: 2007-02-03 21:17
The Eb lever on my three Selmer clarinets works that way, but the other two "long" keys have the pins. (The auxiliary F uses a rod that operates a cam to close its key, a third method.)
leader of Houston's Sounds Of The South Dance Orchestra
info@sotsdo.com
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2007-02-03 21:23
No pins on either of my clarinets except the Bundy Alto.
--
Ben
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Author: EuGeneSee
Date: 2007-02-03 21:44
Play-off time:
Selmer Paris (4 digit, FB) - Pins
Selmer Paris (Series 10) - pins
Selmer USA (4 digit) - pins
Selmer USA (Soloist) - no pins
Leblanc (Symphonie) - pins
Evette (Master Model) - pins
Amati (key of C) - no pins
Buescher (eefer) - no pins
Vito (alto) - no pins
Bundy (bass) - pins
Final score in this household -----> the pins (all metal) win 6 to 4 overall and and 5 to 1 in their league (The Bb Conference).
Disclaimer: I did not count about 6 assorted student clarinets being fixed up, cleaned up, etc. for donation to the home school band. I suspect they are mostly no pin types.
Eu
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Author: jbutler ★2017
Date: 2007-02-03 23:57
Carry a small length of .80 string trimmer (weed eater) line in your clarinet case. Insert it in the socket and trim off as necessary. It works very well in a pinch.
jbutler
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2007-02-04 01:36
I haven't looked at a plastic Bundy lately, but they at least used to have a simple fulcrum, with no pins.
However, they had a much worse problem. The throat A key had a needle spring that was so short it broke constantly.
Ken Shaw
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Author: jmsa
Date: 2007-02-04 01:57
The Ridenour Arioso and Lyrique line of clarinets have no pins.
jmsa
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Author: sherman
Date: 2007-02-04 04:55
Yes,jmsa, I have a set of Bb and A Ridenour Arioso, no pins!
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2007-02-05 15:15
Because of the geometry of the key relative to the lever, either a pin needs to move across the hole during key travel, or the lever must have a sloppy pivot to allow for sideways movement, or that hole should not be circular.
As a compromise, the business end of the pin should be barrel shaped or round when looking from the side, but rectangular when viewed from above, i.e. narrow so it can move across the hole a little without the linkage binding. The business end of the pin could start off spherical, and then crushed, side to side, to make it narrow when viewed from above.
This is what I try to achieve when I make a metal replacement. Then I have no problem at all with two thicknesses of goldbeater. Indeed, I rarely have a problem with two thicknesses anyway, as Ken seems to. I use contact glue to laminate a large sheet, which lasts me for a few decades. The Evostik glue between the layers probably makes the material significantly tougher.
I don't cut circles. Suitable sized rectangles are just as good, probably better, because they get less bunching up where the pin has to move from side to side in the hole.
Before I replace the skin, I often check that the pins are central to the holes. This then enables use of the double thickness without binding.
Double thickness certainly seems quieter than a single thickness.
If the holes are slightly on the large size for the pins, I revel in using a far, far tougher material, the spinnaker cloth used for top racing yachts. It is 0.05 mm thick. (Free offcuts from the floor of the local sail maker :-)
A good test for the robustness of membranes used here is to try to pierce the material between my eye teeth. All plastic bag type materials fail miserably compared with goldbeater, and it is a real struggle to pierce the spinnaker cloth.
Ken wrote: "Think extra pins are fiddly? Try carrying around tiny whisps of goldbeater's skin, which has to be ... carefully folded over the pin and then jammed into the hole without falling off or getting blown away."
I apply contact a very thin layer of contact cement around the pin. Then by the time I have applied to to a narrow strip of silencer, and cut off suitable lengths (which conveniently stick to the edge of the scissor blades) The glue has set enough to easily attach the membrane around the pin with no problems. Then I thrust the pin into the end of my syringe of Alsyn cork grease, and mount the levers on the instrument.
Easy operation. Very long lasting, especially with the spinnaker cloth. Amazing stuff! Very quiet.
I, too find the nylon pins too noisy, and often find there is room to cover them with goldbeater. I find Teflon noisy too, when it is used on throat key linkages. Goldbeater and other TOUGH membrane silencers have a lot going for them.
Did I hear a rumour that Buffet has or is going back to metal pins? About time. Shame on them for ever introducing them.
Shame also on Selmer, who use a similar pin on at least their Signature model.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2007-02-05 15:27
I used party balloon rubber snippets as silencers on my Bundy alto. The pins there are tiny compared to the holes in the levers, and folded-over-and-glued pad skin was too thin. The missus' rubber glove was too thick, but the kids' balloon was just perfect.
--
Ben
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2007-02-05 16:34
What we need are ball joints in the key portion to take the rotation, with a pin from the spatula lever fitting through a close-tolerance cylindrical hole through the ball to take the sliding motion only. Geez, do I have to tell youse guys everything?
![[toast]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smiley15.gif)
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2007-02-05 17:02
David,
what bugs me most about all these solutions is that force and motion are not linear over the entire path. I need something with pneumatic actuators.
--
Ben
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-02-05 17:29
The ball joint/pin concept is alright in theory, but looking at late MkVI saxes using them on the side Bb and C shows how things don't always work as planned. Even Yamaha Custom saxes (as well engineered as they are) have some unwanted play in the pin where it fits into the actuating levers, though they do have a Teflon sleeve over the end of the connecting pin (where the ball fits onto) on the pad cup arms to keep the noise down.
Hydraulically driven keys are a good idea as they can do away with a lot of the mechanism - just the necessary finger buttons and hydraulic pipes to connect to the pad cups. Just have to make sure the master and slave cylinders don't spring a leak or it could get messy.
Or pad cups driven by servo motors provided the pads are seated well, and your battery isn't flat. Mechanical solutions are far more trustworthy than electronics for that simple reason.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
Independent Woodwind Repair Specialist
Oboes, Clarinets and Saxes
NOT A MEMBER OF N.A.M.I.R.
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2007-02-05 18:07)
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Author: stevesklar
Date: 2007-02-05 17:58
"....... I need something with pneumatic actuators."
and i'd love to see the local auto mechanics look on his face when you drop off a clarinet for an overhaul and fluid top-off.
Are we all agreeing that the keys on a clarinet need to be completely redesigned ?? with pivoting main rods (ie, like saxophone table keys & rods) ?
or we just live with it with our best solutions ?
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2007-02-05 18:07
tictactux wrote:
> I need something
> with pneumatic actuators.
Pneumatic, hell. Hydraulic with a pressurizer to keep the action correct with temperature changes and faster action than pneumatic to boot ...
Better mechanical advantage, straight actions, and even more complex key systems could be built. Hydraulic "computers" have been around for quite a while.
And, of course, with a little amateur twiddling they'd even oil the bore when you weren't looking
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-02-05 18:11
If a clarinet had hydraulic or hydropneumatically linked keywork, would it need a compressor and all the other gubbins like an accumulator sphere, hydraulic reservoir and tiny suspension spheres (which replace the springs) as found in Citroens?
And would it have self-levelling pads too?
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
Independent Woodwind Repair Specialist
Oboes, Clarinets and Saxes
NOT A MEMBER OF N.A.M.I.R.
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2007-02-05 18:15
Chris P wrote:
> If a clarinet had hydraulic or hydropneumatically linked
> keywork, would it need a compressor and all the other gubbins
> like an accumulator sphere, hydraulic reservoir and tiny
> suspension spheres (which replace the springs) as found in
> Citroens?
No compressor on a direct acting closed circuit hydraulic or pneumatic system. Your fingers and return spring are the actuators. A pressurizer/reservoir would be pretty much required, but considering the amount of fluid that would be lost, could be very small. We're not looking to amplify the work, just move it.
Now, bleeding the keywork with a hydraulic system would be, ah, interesting ...
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-02-05 18:17
...and make sure the hydraulic fluid isn't hygroscopic or corrosive, and the hydraulic lines don't rupture or bulge.
I read that Camac built a harp with hydraulic action - not sure if it was a single or double action harp, but I'd imagine it would have been much easier to make and regulate the mechanism, and probably much lighter in weight too.
Hmmm... so with the hydraulic thing in mind, such behemoths as octo-contrabass clarinets and saxes can be built without hugely complex mechanisms, and in any shape as well.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
Independent Woodwind Repair Specialist
Oboes, Clarinets and Saxes
NOT A MEMBER OF N.A.M.I.R.
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2007-02-05 18:18)
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Author: Terry Stibal
Date: 2007-02-05 20:52
This is starting to sound like the electrically assisted orchestra section in the Hector Berlioz orchestration book...
leader of Houston's Sounds Of The South Dance Orchestra
info@sotsdo.com
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2007-02-05 21:02
Hydraulics probably operate too slowly to be effective as actuators for wind instruments. Imagine trying to move your automobile clutch and brake pedals as quickly as you move your fingers on the clarinet.... A better automotive analogy is the valvetrain world, where directly-operated mechanical linkages (camshafts and sometime pushrods, moving against springs) continue to rule the day after 100+ years of use. There have been a few attempts at electric solenoid-operated valves, but they are a difficult design problem. Hydraulics work best at moving large things slowly, and electrics are better for moving light things fast. Mechanical linkages can do both pretty well, but tend to be heavy and take up a lot of space (and of course need a fairly direct path between actuator and device). There's no 'magic bullet' out there.
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Author: BobD
Date: 2007-02-05 22:23
As with many mechanisms that have been around for many years that of the present day clarinet are what they are because of many reasons. What sometimes seems to be an improvement can fail due to serviceability. The P
RAG mechanism on some LeBlancs is one example of an improvement that hasn't prevailed across the board. Ha, Dave, on the clutch a subject with many pros and cons and many memories.....the old Studebaker "Hill Holder" for one.
But....Hey, this is a clarinet BB!!
Bob Draznik
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2007-02-05 23:33
David Spiegelthal wrote:
> A better automotive analogy is the
> valvetrain world, where directly-operated mechanical linkages
> (camshafts and sometime pushrods, moving against springs)
> continue to rule the day after 100+ years of use.
Like those hydraulic lifters, eh?
Hydraulics over the last 50-75 years have come a very long way. I worked on hydraulic amplifiers back in the 70s that were lightning fast - I'm sure they're even faster today.
Your brakes & clutch are virtually instantaneous in their response - as are your shock absorbers and automatic transmission. There are valves and channels that dampen responses for various reasons in most of the above.
I would be worrying more about weight.
The problem with most electrics (other than servo motors) is their binary "on/off" - there's no control over shading.
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2007-02-06 03:15
Hydraulic lifters are quite small and once 'pumped up' they actually don't move, they just fill the gap between cam and valve, so not really a good analogy, but your other points are well taken, Mark. And there are such things in the electric world as stepper motors and precision potentiometers, but no matter. As a mechanical engineer, I'm emotionally obliged to favor mechanical linkages over other forms of activation, I just can't help it!
![[grin]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie5.gif) s
Post Edited (2007-02-06 03:17)
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Author: DougR
Date: 2007-02-09 14:34
To cut to the chase here, I just tried to order some nylon pins thru Weiner Music (I was ordering reeds anyhow, so I thought what the hey).
The order lady passed me to the repair department, and someone named Mark answered the phone (this would be Mark Jacobi, I imagine, as Alseg mentioned above).
He said he does indeed MAKE his own pins out of metal. He also gave me Buffet's number and suggested I try there for the nylon replacements.
I called the number (866-434-9240) and was connected to the New York rep. (apparently this is a wholesale/retail dealer number) who told me they were currently out of stock, but he couldn't sell directly to me anyhow; I'd have to go through a franchised Buffet dealer. It wasn't until I hung up the phone that I thought, wait a minute...isn't Weiner a Buffet dealer?
I'm going to try Sam Ash and maybe Manny's a little later and see if they'll order me the pins.
If they decline, I'll call the number back and explain to the rep that the R-13 has this obvious design flaw, namely fragile "nylon connector pins for levers" (which is the official name, per the Buffet rep), and they need to A) furnish me the pins directly, since my retailers won't, and B) correct the flawed design with sturdy pins that won't break.
I imagine if all of us who are grousing about the levers did that, it might have some impact. (I think this is called 'guerrilla action'!)
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Author: GBK
Date: 2007-02-09 15:54
DougR wrote:
> The order lady passed me to the repair department, and someone
> named Mark answered the phone (this would be Mark Jacobi, I
> imagine, as Alseg mentioned above).
The head of the repair department at Weiner Music is Mark Kasten, not Marc Jacobi.
Mark Kasten has been at Weiner Music for more than 20 years, doing repairs and setting up new clarinets, saxes and flutes...GBK
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Author: LesterV
Date: 2007-02-09 17:45
The Buffet Crampon website has a page of contacts. One of the contacts listed is "Head Office and Factory". Last Friday I sent them an email about the nylon pin problem. Monday I received a nice reply from the Sales Admininstration Manager saying she forwarded my email to their production manager for study. I then sent her a reply thanking her for the quick response and provided the link to this thread.
There is no excuse for them not to fix this problem rather quickly if they value their reputation. If they have enough interest to actually look at this thread I would think they would post a reply.
I also found a reference to nylon becoming brittle after exposure so some non-petroleum based lubricants. Could this relate to the breakage problem? I suspect that these pins may sometimes be routinely lubricated.
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Author: BobD
Date: 2007-02-09 18:34
....and, there are various nylon formulas too plus the variable of what and how much regrind is used in any batch. The point being that nylon describes a family of products, not just one specie(s?)
Bob Draznik
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2007-02-09 19:22
If Buffet must use a plastic for their lever pins, then there are better choices than nylon -- for example, Delrin (trade name for an acetal resin) has been used for decades by at least one bicycle equipment manufacturer for its derailleur shifter levers -- those levers bend, but I've never seen one break.
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Author: hartt
Date: 2007-02-10 01:34
Seemingly worse than the breakage problem and all the 'recommended solutions' is this............
if your pin(s) break, Buffet considers them parts (has designated p/n's) and thus ordered and sold only thru a Buffet parts dealer.
This happened to me today. In light of this thread, I phoned Buffet asking for a set of these pins for my Vintage. I was told they could be obtained only thru a Buffet dealer and not sold to the public. They would not even provide me with a price.
A friggin pair of nylon pins that they know are problematic??
dennis
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Author: GBK
Date: 2007-02-10 01:43
An update on my colleague (from the original posting on this thread) whose Prestige R13 clarinet had the broken nylon pin/dowel...
After a week he is still waiting for the replacement part to arrive so his repair tech can fix his clarinet.
It's pretty sad when a 25¢ part is so difficult to obtain and as a result renders the clarinet unplayable ...GBK
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Author: hartt
Date: 2007-02-10 02:15
Seems Buffet has issues concerning communication.
In line with my pin issue adn GBK's '2sd hand' issue, I experienced another issue.
The old style adjustable thumbrest has a very small slotted head set screw.
I phoned Buffet, was directed to the proper party. I shared my need. I was told that a bag of tehm was around before inventory was taken. They would be looked for and I'd be contacted (phone or email).
no contact.
I called again. This time I was told that even if unavailable here (USA), they could be obtained from France but they'd look again.
no contact.
I called again and spoke to Al, the Customer Service mgr. I shared my need and experiences. He mentioned all he could do was talk to the people I'd already spoken to adn remind them.
I was reminded that these parts were obtainable only thru a Buffet dealer.
Not criticizing anyone's performance, perhaps the receptionists Pricilla and Mary, and Francois are the 'go to' guys.
Granted, a company can't start dealing direct with the public adn circumvent their own policies BUT a set screw or nylon pins??????
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Author: DougR
Date: 2007-02-10 02:19
Wait, there's more!! I forgot to add that the Buffet rep, before he realized I was a private party instead of a dealer, told me the pins were out of stock and on order, but they didn't expect to get them in for a month.
I did stop at Sam Ash a while ago & talked to the tech there. He offered to order the pins for me from Buffet but cautioned that in the past it's taken as much as four MONTHS to get the pins. He makes his own out of rod stock, and charges $20 each to make them. He showed me a clarinet he'd just done that to.
I think the obvious solution here, in addition to pointed inquiries to Buffet about when they plan on fixing the problem, is to get the pins replaced at my next service and keep fingers crossed until then.
Sort of like buying a Porsche and having the steering wheel fall off in your lap, isn't it?
Oh yeah--KASTEN! Mark KASTEN! (slaps forehead) I knew that!! I had a problem with my tenor that nobody seemed to be able to fix, and more than one person told me, "If nobody else can fix it, Mark Kasten can fix it."
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Author: BobD
Date: 2007-02-10 09:38
"Sort of like buying a Porsche and having the steering wheel fall off in your lap, isn't it?"
Happened to me on a John Deere tractor during a snow storm.
Regarding making pins, I've made a couple using copper electrical wire.
Bob Draznik
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-02-10 10:15
Buffet's design of point screws has a lot to be desired - the thread is way too short because of the plastic 'lock' fitted by the head, and there's only a tiny amount of thread left in the pillar as it's been countersunk deep so the pillar head can acommodate the plastic 'lock' and head on the screw. And when these fall out, they're not easy to replace unless you have a stock of the new screws. If they do need to be tightened, then there's the risk of stripping the thread in the pillar.
And the same can be said about the short thread on their adjustable thumbrest with the (cast) ring/locking screw.
Best thing is to stock up on Buffet thumbrest assemblies, point screws and nylon pins if you can.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
Independent Woodwind Repair Specialist
Oboes, Clarinets and Saxes
NOT A MEMBER OF N.A.M.I.R.
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: larryb
Date: 2007-02-10 13:19
I wonder if Guy Chadash couldn't help you Buffet people out.
Not only does he manufacture his own instruments, he also repairs and services others. I'd wager that he has a fix for this problem.
My condolences.
Update: here's a photo of the Chadash clarinet metal parts - I think I see some of your pins there: http://www.chadashclarinet.com/metal.htm
Post Edited (2007-02-10 13:25)
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2007-02-10 13:41
I would go to one of the 'big' names. They are a little safer.
Post Edited (2007-02-10 13:50)
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Author: EuGeneSee
Date: 2007-02-11 04:17
Delrin is also used extensively for harpsichord plectra, the little pieces that pluck the strings when the instrument is played. These little string "pluckers" really get a workout, and Delrin has shown that it will outlast just about anything else while maintaining the degree of flexibility very similar to an old fashioned quill or leather plectrum to give the instrument the proper sound. If Delrin can handle being used for bycycle shifters and harpsichord plectra, it would seem to be much better than nylon for those clarinet pins. Eu
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Author: BobD
Date: 2007-02-11 13:33
Good choice Gene.....plus, maybe, a smidgen of graphite filler for lubrication.
Bob Draznik
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-02-11 14:26
Or a steel reinforced Delrin pin that fits into a Teflon sleeve in the connecting arm.
The possibilities are endless.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
Independent Woodwind Repair Specialist
Oboes, Clarinets and Saxes
NOT A MEMBER OF N.A.M.I.R.
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Koo Young Chung
Date: 2007-02-11 16:30
Eaton clarinet dosen't use any pins on these keys.
They use overlap lever system which is queiter and secure than Buffet type.
I'm wondering why these system are not wide adapted.
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2007-02-11 16:45
then they couldn't make any money replacing the nylon.
things like that really have to do with 'tradition'. good or bad, this is Buffet's 'way' of doing things. part of the thought process is, 'We can't be caught 'learning' from another company. It would make our designers look like real people and not Gods of instrument design'.
The 'new' key on the Tosca, for example, is a 100+ year old German idea but do they mention that it's not their original idea?
-S
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-02-11 18:02
There are a lot of German ideas that have found their way onto French instruments, and vice versa.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
Independent Woodwind Repair Specialist
Oboes, Clarinets and Saxes
NOT A MEMBER OF N.A.M.I.R.
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: LesterV
Date: 2007-02-12 12:10
I just replaced the nylon pins on my R13 with ones I made from a carbon fiber rod. I ordered the rod from www.hobby-lobby.com. Their part number is GXR25 and costs $2.10. Its a 2.5mm x 1000mm rod which is enough to do more than fifty R13s. I used a lathe but these simple parts could probably be made using an electric drill or drill press to spin a short piece of the rod and a small fine file to shape the pin. Either way requires careful measurement with calipers or micrometers. The finished pin can be decribed as a 0.200" long, 0.073" dia rod, with a 0.094" dia ball on the end of it. It helps to taper the end a bit to help when inserting it into the key.
One warning: Its usually impossible to spend only $2 at a hobby shop - they have lots of neat stuff.
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Author: pewd
Date: 2007-02-13 03:32
if someone would manufacture a supply of spare/replacement pins, at a reasonable cost, i'd be first in line to buy a bunch of them ; they're always breaking on student's instruments.
- Paul Dods
Dallas, Texas
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Author: Terry Stibal
Date: 2007-02-13 04:04
This all reminds me of the problem that I had with my Yamaha baritone when I picked it up for a very reasonable price back in the 1980's. ALthough in relatively flawless condition for a used instrument, it did have two small problems.
On the bell portion of the instrument of the instrument are the great saucer pads, and each pad is stopped (and tuned, for what it's worth for those notes) by a felt bumper. Each such bumper is made of a dark maroon felt, and looks much like similar items on all other such instruments.
However, the Yamaha bumpers are of a slightly smaller or larger diameter than those found on other horns, and what I could find locally just did not fit. I could have trimmed down the other bumpers to fit, but why go coach when you can go first class?
The problem was that no one within a hundred miles of my home stocked the damn'd things. Calls to Yamaha returned the typical "Contact your local dealer" crap. I could not find anyone willing to order the things for me.
So, reworked some green felts, and then took to calling on every musical repair facility that I could find, looking for the elusive little cylinders.
It took the better part of a year before I located a cache of them in Evansville IN. (That in and of itself was not that unusual - I've found all sorts of things in the "City That Time Forgot" in the past.) The repair place had a small plastic bag of them, and I bought all of them save two.
Of course, I've never needed another since I replaced the missing two. But, if things go wrong, I'm ready to spring into action.
I had a similar problem with an Opel GT automobile I owned back in the early 1970's. Nifty little car, but with one great flaw. In the side of the carburetor (remember those?) was a hefty brass adjustment screw with a sort of ball valve in the head of same. One evening while making the trek back to Ft. Knox from home up in St. Louis, this screw vibrated out (making a loud "thonk" as it did so), and immediately the engine would stop running as long as I was not accelerating. I drove on for a hundred miles through the mountains of Southern IN, with the accelerator floored the while, until I made it back to Ft. Knox.
The next afternoon, a trip to the local Buick dealer (the importer for the Opel line) to replace the missing screw. It only took two weeks to get the OEM replacements from Deutchland (I bought five, just to be on the safe side). I still have one, kept as a reminder that hard to get parts are just that...
leader of Houston's Sounds Of The South Dance Orchestra
info@sotsdo.com
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2007-02-13 04:31
Those bumpers are readily abailable in many diameters.
My supplier, Music Center, sells them from 8 to 10 mm diameter in 0.5 mm increments. Standard colours are typically white, green, red, and black.
Yamaha has used a brown colour, which general suppliers to the trade do not normally offer.
My stocks of brown Yamaha bumpers are 9 mm diameter.
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Author: hartt
Date: 2007-02-13 05:57
Here we are..........75 posts on this specific topic and related ones concerning parts availability, length of selivery time, etc, etc.........
75 posts....AND NOT ONE RESPONSE FROM BUFFET !!!
pathetic situation
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2007-02-13 07:10
Has anybody sent the thread to Francois, for comment? Or is he no longer there?
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2007-02-13 11:07
Gordon (NZ) wrote:
> Has anybody sent the thread to Francois, for comment?
Yes, if you would have read above. No answer yet, but oftentimes Francois is on the road.
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Author: DougR
Date: 2007-02-13 12:55
OK, let's summarize what we've learned.
Buy a brand-new R-13 and you:
A) must never lubricate the nylon pins, because they'll become brittle...
B) must advance-order nylon pin replacements, since you never know when they'll break and replacements take a minimum of one, and a maximum of four, months to be delivered...
C) OR, purchase your R-13 and a lathe to go along with it, so you can make your own replacements...
D) OR, immediately bring your new R-13 to the shop, so local craftsmen can correct the problem, at YOUR expense.
Frankly, I prefer D, though considering the high initial cash outlay, I kind of resent it. (and why wait weeks or months, to replace pins-that-may-break-unpredictably with MORE pins-that-may-break-unpredictably?)
Additionally, we now know that if Buffet is looking for ingenious solutions to the problem, be they hydraulic, magnetic, pneumatic, kinetic or maybe even TELEkinetic, they should hire us all as part of the design team!
and, Terry S: an Opel GT?! You mean the Manta Ray version? You have an adventurous spirit indeed!
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-02-13 13:28
Opel Manta? I haven't seen them for years.
I like the idea of the teleknetic clarinet - maybe it should be the Carrie White model!
Maybe Buffet should just go back to using their tried and tested solution of yesteryear - metal pins.
But I reckon threaded stainless steel pins is the best bet - they're strong and can be removed if needed.
I've never seen a broken metal pin, even the ones that are integral with the LH levers.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
Independent Woodwind Repair Specialist
Oboes, Clarinets and Saxes
NOT A MEMBER OF N.A.M.I.R.
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: GBK
Date: 2007-02-13 13:39
DougR wrote;
> OK, let's summarize what we've learned.
> Buy a brand-new R-13 and you:
> A) must never lubricate the nylon pins, because they'll become brittle...
> B) must advance-order nylon pin replacements, since you never
> know when they'll break and replacements take a minimum of one,
> and a maximum of four, months to be delivered...
> C) OR, purchase your R-13 and a lathe to go along with it,
> so you can make your own replacements...
> D) OR, immediately bring your new R-13 to the shop,
> so local craftsmen can correct the problem, at YOUR expense.
E) OR, you can (like myself and many colleagues I know who prefer Buffet clarinets) ONLY use Buffets clarinets from the "pre Nylon Pin Era" ('60's 70's and '80's)
...GBK
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2007-02-13 13:46
GBK, you've forgotten the most economical approach of all: Sell your fragile and unreliable Buffets, rush right out to your nearest Wally-World mass retailer, and procure a shiny new "First Act" instrument! I'm sure it doesn't have nylon pins on its spatula levers.
Problem solved!
You don't need to thank me.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-02-13 14:23
Not only do they lack nylon pins ...
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
Independent Woodwind Repair Specialist
Oboes, Clarinets and Saxes
NOT A MEMBER OF N.A.M.I.R.
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: EuGeneSee
Date: 2007-02-13 15:03
Hey, guys, Glenn doesn't worry about a broken pin shutting down his playing . . . while waiting 4 months for a replacement vintage steel pin to arrive, he has 1,784 backup Buffets ready to honk! Eu
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Author: chicagoclar
Date: 2007-02-13 21:07
I'm glad to see I'm not the only one to have this problem. I just bought my prestige last week (used) Less than 24 hours into owning it, the Eb key broke (well the little plastic thing did) I frantically took it to the repair shop and they replaced it with a piece of metal. I was glad to have it done quickly and in a way that seems much more secure.
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2007-02-14 01:56
Seems like the current Buffet is the Chevette of clarinets, but at a Cadillac price. Ah, those crazy French............
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2007-02-14 10:20
I have only my experience, which is one Bb Buffet from 8 years ago, one Bb Buffet from 1992, one Buffet bass clarinet I think I got in 2001, and one Buffet bass clarinet from two years ago. All of these have the nylon pins. None of pins broke so far.
My Bb is an Eaton and as someone mentioned it doesn't have any pins. It is just the levers moving the other keys. What's important about this is that the levers are made that their weight is spread in way that they don't move when you move just the right side keys. In playing position they won't move but in some other angles they would (which doesn't matter). With a pin design this is not so important.
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Author: GBK
Date: 2007-02-16 11:43
Final update on my colleague's Prestige R13 with the broken pin/dowel:
His repair tech was told "at least 4 weeks" to obtain the part, so he made his own - out of metal ...GBK
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Author: DougR
Date: 2007-02-16 14:33
Yeah, it makes ZERO sense to replace these things with Buffet parts: you're inconvenienced waiting for the parts to arrive, and inconvenienced again with the near-certainty that they could break again at any time.
To Sherman's point along the lines of "nobody criticizes a clarinetist's performance because of noisy keys," it's true as far as it goes. But I've had friends spend literally thousands of dollars trying to edit key clicks OUT of otherwise perfect recordings, so it's an issue to be aware of in a recording situation, for sure.
To me there's only one solution: get the pins replaced with something that won't break, at the earliest possible opportunity, chalk it up to a dopey design choice on Buffet's part, and move on!
Great thread, by the way--filled with ingenuity, informed speculation, actual knowledge, valuable information, whimsy, humor--all worthy of, AHEM, a little donation (I see the fund drive is still on!)
dougR
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2007-02-16 14:56
I have emailed Buffet before..they are no different from an auto corporation..remember the Ford Winstar fiasco...hundred of people tried to get service etc to no avail. I really doubt Buffet will ever respond to personal email..it just doesn't seem to be part of the way corporations do business. As to this specific problem I doubt also Buffet will address these concerns because of the huge cost of retooling to fit a specific part in just such as case as this.
David Dow
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-02-16 15:00
It's easier and less costly to programme a CNC machine to make metal parts than it is to make moulds for injection moulding nylon parts.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
Independent Woodwind Repair Specialist
Oboes, Clarinets and Saxes
NOT A MEMBER OF N.A.M.I.R.
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: hartt
Date: 2007-02-16 23:50
Here's an update from information shared with me by Buffet's SW Regional Mgr, Willie Connell.
When Buffet was located in LA, under the ownership of the Music Group, Buffet North America's total parts inventory (all instruments) amounted to a mere $30 K.
Under the new ownership and their relocation to Jacksonville, FL, Buffet has ordered close to 1 million in parts inventory.
Lever Pins.......through complaints over the years, Buffet has recognized the use of nylon pins was poor judgment and is reverting back to the use of metal pins.
The inventory supply of nylon pins was sent to numerous Buffet dealers throughout NA. This was done so that if someone had broken pins, they could contact their local dealer and the pins would be replaced.....AT NO CHARGE.
Unfortunately, Willie mentioned that Buffet does not know the specific dealers to whom the inventory of pins was dispersed nor if the dealer's supply was depleted..
In an effort to obtain p/n's , I have, over time, spoken with Randy, Rodney, Pricilla of Buffet NA adn even with Al, Buffet's Customer Service mgr.
I suggested that relative to the PIN issue, that Buffet direct mail the Pins to anyoen who contacts the Jacksonville facility. For obvious reasons, this may or may not happen but presently, the Pins are out of stock.
Buffet is aware of PIN issue but not to the degree expounded upon in this posting.
However, they do now. I was asked to email this thread link and told it would be brought to Francois' attention.
I'm sure the inventory situation was/is just as, if not more, frustrating to Francois.
One issue is certain: Buffet will not deal direct with a consumer.......not even for a replacement thumbrest set screw.
dennis
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2007-02-17 15:38
Mark Charette wrote:
> I'll contact François Kloc and see what he says.
Quote:
Dear Mark,
Thanks for the e mail I am on the road right now and will address the list as soon as possible. I have contacted the production manager at Buffet Crampon and discussed the matter with him. He is going to look into different option as we want to make sure that not only the keys function properly but also that they are not noisy. It always looks easy but it is not as you know. We have used metal pins in the past which were sturdy but required attention often as the fish skin or other plastic films would wear quickly and make the mechanism noisy.
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Author: Koo Young Chung
Date: 2007-02-18 14:39
Changing lever pin is very easy.
1.go to a nearby hardware store.
2.find the right diameter drill bit ($2)
3.grind it to the correct length and dia(if needed)
(if you don't have a grinder,you can buy Dremel type tool about at$25)
4.remove old pin and replace with new one
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-03-04 12:40
Any more developments from Buffet regarding this topic?
I've still got my bag of emergency spare nylon pins, though on my bass I might adapt and fit some stainless steel screws to replace the nylon ones with.
But their durability or active life is variable - I've seen newer Buffets with them sheared (and brand new ones with them snapped in transit), and 20 year old Buffets still with the originals.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
Independent Woodwind Repair Specialist
Oboes, Clarinets and Saxes
NOT A MEMBER OF N.A.M.I.R.
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: spiderbelle
Date: 2007-03-04 19:44
I just saw this thread, and although I don't have any suggestions for how to improve this design flaw, I'd like to add my name to the list of people who have had the nylon lever pin break.
Also, it happened to break during a performance -- thankfully, it was just a summer community band concert; nevertheless, it was rather unnerving, especially when I had no idea why I suddenly couldn't play.
Fortunately, I found the broken pin at my feet, and it was still long enough to put back into the lever and finish the concert (although it did fall out another 2-3 times within a half-hour or so).
Another clarinetist in the band knew about this problem with newer Buffets, told me it was a pretty common issue, and advised me to hold the broken pin inside the lever with a little dab of clear nail polish. (Yes, I was very careful NOT to 'paint' the wood.)
I still haven't gotten a replacement pin for it -- the little dab of clear nail polish has held quite well -- but I live in constant fear of it happening again. That's not much fun. Thanks to all contributors on this thread -- I think I'll try to get a metal replacement. I'd rather have 'durable and reliable' over 'a little quieter but can wreak havoc without notice.'
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2007-03-07 14:29
What about nylon capped metal pins? If it breaks or falls off at least you still have a working key, albeit a bit noiser.
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Author: GBK
Date: 2008-01-02 18:55
Resurrecting this thread -
One of my advanced students just left a message saying that one of the LH nylon pins on his R13 Greenline broke today.
Luckily I have ONE spare pin, so I'll be able to fix his clarinet this weekend during his lesson.
Since I haven't examined any new Buffets in the past 6 months, are the nylon pin connectors still being used?
Haven't we suffered enough with this design flaw? ![[huh]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie11.gif) ...GBK
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2008-01-02 19:31
(rounding it up to 100 replies)
They are still using them.
I replace them on any Buffet I work on as a matter of course.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
Independent Woodwind Repair Specialist
Oboes, Clarinets and Saxes
NOT A MEMBER OF N.A.M.I.R.
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2008-01-02 20:17
It's no big deal to replace the nylon pins/dowels with metal ones. As a part of an overhaul I replace them anyway whether they are broken or not.
Vytas Krass
Clarinet Repair
Professional clarinet technician
Custom clarinet mouthpiece maker
Former professional clarinet player
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Author: Avie
Date: 2008-01-02 21:50
It seems that there has been a huge flaw designed into the resent mfrg of buffet clarinets. Replacing the c#/f# key nylon pins may have a lengthy future.
Im sure Buffet engineers have considered using metal pin mt'l but decided to go with nylon for whatever reasons.
Other than metal, wouldnt Polyethelene have many more times the strength and life of a cheap nylon? Why isnt Buffet replacing the broken pins at their expense? Shouldnt all parts of a new R13 last a lifetime if properly maintained?
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2008-01-02 21:59
"Shouldnt all parts of a new R13 last a lifetime if properly maintained?"
Not all parts - pads only have a limited lifespan on any clarinet, some pads have a much longer lifespan than others, even if they're synthetic, cork, leather or skin.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
Independent Woodwind Repair Specialist
Oboes, Clarinets and Saxes
NOT A MEMBER OF N.A.M.I.R.
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: GBK
Date: 2008-01-02 22:11
What annoys me the most (and I'm a loyal Buffet customer) is that aside from having to reseat pads, adjust spring tension, alleviate sticking joints/tenons, check the cutting of the tone holes, etc... on new clarinets, we now have to add "replace the nylon pin connectors" as one more thing on the list for our techs to do during a standard set-up.
It seems that less and less, the price of $2800 does not buy you a pro level clarinet which can be played safely "right out of the box" ...GBK
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Author: BobD
Date: 2008-01-02 22:22
We refer to the pins as being made of nylon, but do we know that is what is being used these days? There are a number of different formulas of nylon but they are all comparatively sensitive to humidity which means they swell and then dry out with changing humidity levels. There are other plastic materials that Buffet could have chosen that would be more suitable but perhaps they had a million pins made on the first run and feel compelled to use them up.
Bob Draznik
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2008-01-03 16:06
"Shouldnt all parts of a new R13 last a lifetime if properly maintained?"
The last thing large companies want is to make a product so good that they loose a customer with every sale.
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Author: EuGeneSee
Date: 2008-01-03 16:16
Behold the old Fordson Tractor Company, commonly used in college marketing and economics classes as an example of a company that put themselves out of busines. They did so by producing a product that was too good & never broke, so the company went belly up as they approached what amounted to market saturation.
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Author: Firebird
Date: 2008-01-03 23:52
I would beg to differ in the case of clarinets. There's a certain lifespan, though I'm not too sure how long it is. Even a VERY well maintained instrument will wear itself out over time, and though one might choose to preserve the wood, one still has to order replacement keywork, posts etc. to replace the worn out, mechanical moving parts, which involves such prohibitive costs and labour that it might make more economic sense to buy a new instrument instead.
Chan
Post Edited (2008-01-04 00:12)
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2008-01-04 04:23
"I replace them on any Buffet I work on as a matter of course."
If you don't mind me asking, how much do you charge for that...? You don't have to answer of course, but I'm asking because if you do it on every Buffet then it means your customers never mind paying for it. People where I am really don't like paying for something that isn't broken (yet!).
By the way, I once replaced the nylon pins to metal on a Buffet so I decided to check how easy it is to break the nylon pins (because I personally never had any problem with them). I just pressed the key until the pin broke. Although it was easier than I thought/hoped it would be, the pressure from playing is not anywhere close to that. That Buffet was about four years old so maybe those nylon pins get more brittle with time, or they changed the material, or....
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Author: pewd
Date: 2008-01-04 04:32
unfortunately, i still see numerous students with this problem, they break all too easily. had one just 2,3 weeks ago.
my fear is that one day, just as i start a solo in a symphony concert, pop goes the pin....
i dont suppose someone knows of a suppler of replacement pins made of metal, that can just be glued in there in place of the plastic ones?
i finally scored a supply of replacement plastic ones, but these too shall break eventually.
- Paul Dods
Dallas, Texas
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Author: hartt
Date: 2008-01-04 04:58
paul
I understand that Mark Kasten, repair tech at Weiner's music converts the pins from nylon to metal .
He does not need your clarinet, only the 2 lever keys.
give them a call at 1 800 622 cork
I'm sure other qualified techs can perform this conversion.
One somewhat local to you, (Sugar Land) is John Butler, a BB sponsor. He has a web site, http://www.cork-and-pad.woodwind.org/
regards
dennis
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2008-01-04 04:59
Paul, if you're worried why not just get a repairer to change them to metal pins?
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Author: rtmyth
Date: 2008-01-04 16:00
My suggestion is to replace the instrument with one free of this serious problem , and otherwise acceptable. My Ridenour clarinets (TR147 and Arioso) do not have this problem, and, I should add, are superior to my three Concertos, all of which I have since sold.
richard smith
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2008-01-04 17:05
clarmibass- "That Buffet was about four years old so maybe those nylon pins get more brittle with time, or they changed the material, or...."
I have a 21 year old set of festivals and I have never had a broken pin on them (or any other). I am thinking that excess pressure can cause this and I am trying to imagine a situation in which excess pressure is directed to the pins.
I can only think that the balance on the crow's foot is out of adjustment and the player is forced to put more pressure to make the metal of the key "flex" so that both keys close. For me, I really can't imagine that the amount of pressure one needs to place on the key can cause the pin to break... if the clarinet is adjusted well.
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Author: rtmyth
Date: 2008-01-05 18:43
Reading all the comments, one is puzzled why Buffet , in its' own self interest, has not yet abandoned this long-standing design for one readily available and proven, or a new, even better one of Buffet's design .
richard smith
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Author: pewd
Date: 2008-01-05 21:15
thanks for the replies..
I'm familiar with John's work.
My Bb R13 won't break - its a 1974 model.
I only have the plastic on my A clairnet - which I will have someone switch out one of these days., tis a disaster waiting to happen.
Richard, you'd hope Buffet would have the sense to monitor this board, and address the issue. Same comment on those easily broken adjustable thumb rests.
- Paul Dods
Dallas, Texas
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2008-01-05 22:47
Newd wrote, "i dont suppose someone knows of a suppler of replacement pins made of metal, that can just be glued in there in place of the plastic ones?"
Yes. Kraus now supplies replacement metal pins. They sell only to professional technicians, but seeing most technicians deal with Kraus, they are reasonable readily available. More and more, technicians will be stocking these, unless they make their own.
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Author: pewd
Date: 2008-01-06 01:16
i'll ask one of the local techs about that monday, thx gordon
- Paul Dods
Dallas, Texas
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Author: Avie
Date: 2008-01-06 01:27
"they sell only to professional technicians"
Do I understand! Kraus sells metal pins to professional technicians to replace failed nylon pins! I guess i am missing something here
I dont have that problem with my older Buffet but It does leave me wondering what is reasonable and If there a waranty to cover the replacement cost for the failed nylon pin owners.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2008-01-06 10:58
" waranty to cover the replacement cost for the failed nylon pin owners...."
What's the use of that if they are just replaced with new originals which are just as likely to fail?
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Author: ABerry
Date: 2008-01-07 16:23
Has anyone contacted Mr. Kloc regarding this serious design flaw? What are his recommendations if any?
Allan
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Author: clonestar
Date: 2013-10-17 15:05
Not quite two years ago, I acquired a non-working Buffet B-12, with a broken nylon pin on the E/B left lever key. Since it was a student level clarinet (and a very good one), I undertook the repair in the following manner:
I cleaned out the rest of the nylon pin from the key. Using a simple electric drill (as a lathe) and 300 grit silicon carbide paper (super-glued to a craft stick), I honed down a very small finishing nail to a point where one end would fit well into the end of the key (I silver-soldered it into the end of the lever key and smoothed it out) and the other end was honed down to a diameter smaller than the original nylon pin. After cutting the soldered-in nail to the proper length, I dipped the protruding end of the nail into a thick black liquid substance I got from Harbor Freight Tools, which is normally used in order to insulate parts of certain tools, like the handles of needle-nose pliers. It leaves a sort-of "rubberized" coating on the protruding nail when it dries. After drying, I used a small nail file to shape the insulated end of the key into the receiving hole linked to the right-hand key mechanism. I wound up modifying the other non-broken nylon-pinned lever key in the same manner. The mechanism does not clank or clatter at all and a tiny bit of silicon grease, at the junction of the pin and receiving hole, keeps the action very smooth. It's been in use now for a number of months (by a student with 3 years of playing experience) and she continues to report that she's been quite satisfied with the operation of the instrument. It has become her primary clarinet (she now uses her Bundy only for marching band), so we'll see if time bears out the reliability of the modification.
Don
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2013-10-17 20:09
Back before the change to nylon pins, Buffet used the usual metal ones. Standard practice was to cut a rectangle 1/2" x 1/4" from a thin piece of goldbeater's skin, double it over, lay it over the hole and push it in with the pin. I've been doing that since forever.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Iñaki
Date: 2013-10-17 20:33
Been playing Buffet RC Prestiges (both B flat and A) and never broke any nylon pin, nor have heard about it from my colleagues playing the same clarinets.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2013-10-17 23:29
For what it's worth, my Uebel Emperior Bass (with the Buffet (-style) keywork) has these nylon pins as well. Of all places, in the LH Low D lever, which a) is rather exposed during (dis)assembly of the instrument and b) has a considerable amount of keys linked. And yes, I managed to bend that pin during assembly so that low D would be halfway stuck until I found the reason.
For one thing I understand Buffet's decision to use them - it's better such a pin is sheared off during assembly rather than keywork is bent out of whack. But then I'd expect these to be available "over the counter".
I'll see my band buddy's repairman tomorrow...I'll ask about his findings in the past. (and see If I can beg some pins...)
--
Ben
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2013-10-18 00:16
I am constantly having to replace broken nylon pins on customers' Buffet clarinets.
If I were a pro player I would not be happy to go on stage knowing my performance depended on this fragile link and would replace it with a proper metal pin.
My old 1963 R13 backup clarinet has never failed in this area in 50 years.
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Author: TJTG
Date: 2013-10-18 02:34
The divine I tried had metal pins. Maybe they're going back to the old standard.
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Author: pewd
Date: 2013-10-18 16:15
I've had the carbon fiber ones (see Ed's link above) installed for about 4 years, which solved the problem.
Buffet should be ashamed .... I'm constantly replacing the nylon ones on my student's instruments.
- Paul Dods
Dallas, Texas
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2013-10-25 13:53
I've just fitted a LH Ab/Eb lever to a Selmer Signet clarinet and I've used a Buffet nylon pin in the linkage.
But as an extra safety precaution, I've drilled it through with an 0.5mm drill (.20") and pushed a No.9 (0.55mm or .22") needle spring into it and ground the ends flush which will give it the backbone it lacks.
I recommend doing this if you can as it's a very simple operation which will ensure these pins won't break.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
Independent Woodwind Repair Specialist
Oboes, Clarinets and Saxes
NOT A MEMBER OF N.A.M.I.R.
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Sylvr
Date: 2016-04-24 17:28
I'm dealing with this situation right now, concert tonight. Think I'll have to jury rig it but can't figure out how to get the broken piece out of the hole. Suggestions appreciated, thanks!
Jim
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Author: pewd
Date: 2016-04-24 17:55
Remove the key.
Heat the tip in a flame - I use an alcohol lamp. When it heats up, the residual plastic starts to expand as it melts. Enough will push out of the hole to grab with a pliers (Let it cool down first). I use a small drill bit to remove any residual plastic from the hole (manually twist the drill bit around the hole to clean it out). Then pop in a replacement pin and you're good to go. The problem is locating a supply of replacement pins.
- Paul Dods
Dallas, Texas
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2016-04-24 20:03
Attachment: reinforcednylonpins 001.JPG (208k)
Unless the pins are broken, I won't routinely replace them anymore as I've since been reinforcing them with a piece of 0.9mm diameter needle spring.
Drill 0.9mm hole all the way through, push fit a needle spring all the way through, refit the pin and cut and grind the excess needle spring so it's flush with the end of the pin. See attachment.
Very quick and easy to do and I include this (and respringing the RH F#/C# key with the spring in the pillar) during a service or an overhaul on Buffets (E13 upwards) which is included in the price.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
Independent Woodwind Repair Specialist
Oboes, Clarinets and Saxes
NOT A MEMBER OF N.A.M.I.R.
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2016-04-24 20:06)
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Author: JHowell
Date: 2016-04-25 07:04
Well done, Chris P, that's very good thinking and clean execution.
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Author: Sylvr
Date: 2016-04-25 07:13
Got the piece out, thanks for the advice. By the way, a piece of toothpick made a fine quick fix to get me through a concert. Now to purchase some actual parts. Chris, any chance you would would be interested in selling me a few reinforced pins? I'm in the US. If so, please email me.
Thanks,
Jim
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2016-04-30 14:36
Jim, you're best doing this yourself as it's pretty straightforward:
- Remove the nylon pins by gently pulling them out so you don't squash or mark the ends.
- Mount them in a bench motor or drill chuck and centre drill the end.
- Drill all the way through with a 0.9mm drill (or imperial equivalent).
- Push the appropriate gauge needle spring all the way through and cut it roughly to length with wire cutters.
- Fit the pins back into the ends of the LH levers and push the needle springs in until they come to a stop.
- Grind the ends of the needle springs down (if they're protruding beyond the ends of the nylon pins) and remove any burrs on the ends of the nylon pins.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
Independent Woodwind Repair Specialist
Oboes, Clarinets and Saxes
NOT A MEMBER OF N.A.M.I.R.
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: bookworm
Date: 2019-09-15 04:55
Have you ever tried to get anything from Buffet? You have to do it through a local dealer registered through them. Where I live, there is one only within 250 miles to the south, deals mostly with schools and school-grade instruments, and is less than coöperative when it comes to a special order. I managed to get a couple of pivot screws out of their repairman (I don't use him, so ''forthcoming'' is not his name), but no regular screws---you know, the kind that are impossible to find if they fall out onto a stage. Why can't I just write either the company or a distributer for a part?
sdefbookworm@live.com
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2019-09-15 06:20
"Why can't I just write either the company or a distributor for a part?"
Oh come on now - that would be too easy. You're meant to suffer for your art.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
Independent Woodwind Repair Specialist
Oboes, Clarinets and Saxes
NOT A MEMBER OF N.A.M.I.R.
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2019-09-15 15:32
In the above case I'd say you don't need a "local dealer," you only need a dealer. Buffet is a manufacturer (and honestly an uncooperative one). So just find a good full service dealer (or repair dealer like Brannen Woodwinds) , order through them and have them ship you what you need.
We now have the Interweb.
.............Paul Aviles
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Author: bookworm
Date: 2019-09-15 18:24
So, I've the Rolls-Royce of bass clarinets with a Skoda administration running the show....
sdefbookworm@live.com
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2019-09-16 09:46
Some things just don't go together.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
Independent Woodwind Repair Specialist
Oboes, Clarinets and Saxes
NOT A MEMBER OF N.A.M.I.R.
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2019-09-16 09:48)
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