 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Bill
Date: 2019-09-14 23:40
Attachment: 20190914_153807.jpg (175k)
Just got my 22xxx Buffet overhauled and it came home with these dark pads. What are these called? Thanks!
Bill Fogle
Ellsworth, Maine
(formerly Washington, DC)
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2019-09-15 01:47
The somewhat sharp edge and what seems like a top layer make them look like synthetic pads, maybe Valentino (available in black colour). Though it's hard to be sure from that photo. The only weird thing is the top layer tapers back in slightly, but this can happen if they are heated in a certain way (the very deep seat suggests that they may have been). Check if it's a thin layer wrapped around the pad or not (leather e.g. Roo pads would be wrapped around).
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2019-09-15 06:17
They do look synthetic - possibly Valentino Masters pads.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2019-09-15 07:53
>> possibly Valentino Masters pads. <<
Maybe Masters can be special ordered in black colour, I don't know, but normally only the Greenbacks are available in black.
You could always just ask the repairer what they used...
Post Edited (2019-09-15 07:53)
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2019-09-16 04:24
Yes you can get these. However they are not the top priced Valentino's top brands. I found them to be just a shade spongy for a lack of words, just a shade to much give when pressing down, but that's just me. I tend to prefer firm pads and these Master Pads are not soft but just soft to me. For most musicians they work fine and they will last a long time.
I may sound a bit wacky about this, but I like cork pads on the upper half of horns and hard pads on the lower registers of clarinets. Here's why - I think soft pads can deaden the sound of your horns. It's that simple. Before you disagree with me lets look at saxophones for a second. A lot of the sax pads have plastic resonators around the leather pads so the sax sound isn't too dead sounding and it vibrates and projects with the resonators! Not a lot, but it really helps. I have them on my horns, but not on every key, because a lot of keys don't open that often.
These little tiny things I feel make us sound so much better and can add confidence to our playing just knowing our sound is better than it was.
So I prefer the harder Green Pad line and the cost is a bit more, but we are looking at maybe just a dollar per pad at the most, depending on the size of the pad and for what instrument. Often just 10 cents.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
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Author: kdk
Date: 2019-09-16 04:55
Bob Bernardo wrote:
> I may sound a bit wacky about this, but I like cork pads on the
> upper half of horns and hard pads on the lower registers of
> clarinets. Here's why - I think soft pads can deaden the sound
> of your horns.
Ironically enough, I just had an experience with this on my A clarinet. I mentioned to my repairer that the instrument had been feeling resistant and a couple of notes seemed unstable. He had put, I think, three of those black Valentino pads in the upper section a couple of years ago. He replaced them this time with cork pads and the instrument is noticeably easier to play - freer-blowing with better focus.
Karl
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Author: Bill
Date: 2019-09-16 05:29
kdk wrote:
I mentioned to my repairer that the instrument had
> been feeling resistant and a couple of notes seemed unstable.
> He had put, I think, three of those black Valentino pads in
> the upper section a couple of years ago. He replaced them this
> time with cork pads and the instrument is noticeably easier to
> play - freer-blowing with better focus.
Exactly (depressingly) my experience. The clarinet feels resistant. Crap! I didn't ask for these pads, it was the repairman's decision.
Not thrilled.
Bill Fogle
Ellsworth, Maine
(formerly Washington, DC)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2019-09-16 08:04
These are weird looking. I see what appears to be deep pores in these.....not a characteristic of the Valentinos (any of them!) that I know. The seat can get really deep on the standard Valentinos but that takes some time (year or more) to develop.
The cheap Backuns have black Valentinos on them and they don't look like these at all. I think this is some cheap rip off pad. Don't go back to this repair person. And you should stipulate in advance, and have the repair person's agreement on what pads will be used.
Resistance to me sounds like a leak. Do a negative pressure test to verify that it is leaking (which I'll bet it is).
................Paul Aviles
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2019-09-16 09:38
>> these Master Pads are not soft but just soft to me. <<
>> So I prefer the harder Green Pad line and the cost is a bit more <<
Can you clarify? Assuming by Green you mean Greenback... that's the other way around. The Masters are the more expensive pads. Greenbacks are the simpler made less expensive pads. According to J.L. Smith the Greenback pads are softer.
>> These are weird looking. I see what appears to be deep pores in these.....not a characteristic of the Valentinos (any of them!) that I know. The seat can get really deep on the standard Valentinos but that takes some time (year or more) to develop. <<
The black colour and hard light can make the pad surface seem that way. No real way to tell from a single photo if that is a problem.
Re the deep seat, see my previous post. Valentino pads (both Greenback and Masters) can get a deep seat if the pad itself is heated to a certain degree during installation. Much deeper than just pressing the pad against the tone hole a little bit. This will also slightly "move" the very edge of the pad, which sort of looks like the case in this photo where it slightly tapers in. This is usually not the shape of new Valentino pads.
Of course it might not be a Valentino pad, but if it is, it's much more likely to be a Greenback since they are available in black colour.
Post Edited (2019-09-16 09:39)
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Author: kdk
Date: 2019-09-17 02:04
I would think at this point you might get better information from the repairman who installed them. He will know what they are, and he can tell you why he used them. He may have enough experience with them to know if they explain any problem you're having. Or, if he was experimenting, you can give him feedback about the result.
Karl
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Author: Bill
Date: 2019-09-17 03:26
kdk wrote:
> I would think at this point you might get better information
> from the repairman who installed them. He will know what they
> are, and he can tell you why he used them. He may have enough
> experience with them to know if they explain any problem you're
> having. Or, if he was experimenting, you can give him feedback
> about the result.
>
> Karl
Well ... I had sent this repairman the bottom joint of an old Kohlert clarinet with a broken tenon socket and he repaired it wonderfully and at a truly fair price. When I bought my 22xxx Buffet (needing an overhaul), I thought to send it to him because he has an excellent reputation. When it was ready and I phoned to give him payment info, he began the conversation very brusquely, asking me "Where I got this old clarinet" and "Is this thing YOURS?!" He was mumbling something I didn't fully hear about how these old clarinets are NOT worth the price of an overhaul. I was both shocked and really bummed.
I know that quite a lot of serious clarinetists as well as repair people cannot understand the enthusiasm for vintage clarinets -- as I cannot understand the lust for the "latest, redesigned, improved" clarinets at five-figure prices with names like "Divine" and "Fabulosa" and "Vanilla Truffle Liqueur." So, this famous repair person (who I had never used before, except for the tenon repair) hates old stuff. I totally understand. He's probably in the majority. He didn't even cork the thumb rest (left it bare metal).
So, no, we are not destined to have another conversation. And I have had an expensive lesson. I'm having my regular repair person replace all the pads with cork and bladder.
Bill Fogle
Ellsworth, Maine
(formerly Washington, DC)
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Author: rmk54
Date: 2019-09-17 03:41
Would this repairman happen to have the initials AA?
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Author: Bill
Date: 2019-09-17 03:51
Wow! No, not AA. But if I know who "AA" is -- I had a really GOOD experience with him! Repaired my c. 1955 Marigaux clarinet. Great guy! But that was late 1990s. Maybe he has changed since then.
Bill Fogle
Ellsworth, Maine
(formerly Washington, DC)
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2019-09-17 08:21
I can't really tell for sure if these are Valentino blacks and gauge the hardness just by the pictures. I can say the only company I know of that sells these pads are Valentino. But who knows, new style pads pop up a lot. For example Bachun I think uses black pads, but are they Valentino's? Don't know for sure and these aren't on all of his horns. His black pads are soft.
Karl, thanks for sharing your story!
Bill you had me laughing about repairmen. The great Hans Moennig from Philadelphia had a mouth on him too! He could also light up sometimes. I studied repair with him for a bit and I'd take an early lunch or something, giving him some space! He was a super nice man to me and an honor to know him!
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2019-09-17 08:43
>> He didn't even cork the thumb rest (left it bare metal). <<
That's not an automatic part of any repair. Cork is a very poor cushion compared with many other options anyway. If there is nothing I leave it. If there is cork on it that I nee to replace (e.g. it's about to fall off) I'd more likely ask the owner if they prefer that, and suggest other options instead (like those rubbery cushions that are more comfortable to at least 99% of players).
>> So, no, we are not destined to have another conversation. And I have had an expensive lesson. I'm having my regular repair person replace all the pads with cork and bladder. <<
Not sure why you wouldn't just ask them what they are, but if you are going to have them replaced anyway, and transparent glue was used, you can usually tell from the back if they are Valentino. Both Greenbacks and Masters say Valentino on the back. Greenbacks are usually off-white, with Valentino and the pad diameter written in dark colour. Masters have a very white background, Valentino written in (maybe) yellow, and they are not the same diameter for the entire thickness, with a slightly smaller disc behind (Greenbacks are same diameter the entire thickness). Colours might be different from what I wrote because I'm colourblind.
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Author: Steven Ocone
Date: 2019-09-17 15:13
I don't recognize the pads. They might be black Valentino Greenbacks, but they could be another brand. They are not Masters pads. Soft synthetic pads do create a more muted sound but should not be creating a lot of resistance. The resistance may be because of a leak. Anyway, I would tell the repair tech that they clarinet doesn't play well. It's been a long time since I redid a whole overhaul. I put in cork pads and the students teacher ( a very well known teacher, no longer living, whose name I won't mention) didn't like cork pads! I changed out all they cork pads while he sat there and I fumed. I don't think I would that it again - but I would change out a few if they were a problem.
IMPORTANT NOTE!!!! I almost always change out soft synthetic pads on the open keys. The clarinet can test as sealing perfectly - even on a magnehelic- but they don't seal when you play. You may be able to correct the problem by changing out the five open pads.
Steve Ocone
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2019-09-18 00:41
http://www.jlsmithco.com/piccolo-oboe/valentino-greenback-black-080
This is the link to the black Valentino pads. A good look at how they can look soft.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2019-09-18 00:57
Ok, I've seen the Valentino in person and they do appear "different" in these latest photos. One reason I didn't believe the original posted image was Valentino is because of the rounded appearance of the edge.......NOT typical of those pads. However, these newer images have that more rounded look.
interesting
..............Paul Aviles
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Author: Bill
Date: 2019-09-19 05:00
Bob, how cool that you worked with Hans Moennig! Any further stories to share?
Bill Fogle
Ellsworth, Maine
(formerly Washington, DC)
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2019-09-19 06:25
Hi Bill, yes a few actually. Send an email to savageasax@aol.com and I'd be happy to share some.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
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Author: Bill
Date: 2019-09-20 04:45
Bob Bernardo wrote:
> Hi Bill, yes a few actually. Send an email to
> savageasax@aol.com and I'd be happy to share some.
>
Hey! Look what I got!
**********************
Sorry, we were unable to deliver your message to the following address.
<savageasax@aol.com>:
554: delivery error: dd This user doesn't have a aol.com account
Bill Fogle
Ellsworth, Maine
(formerly Washington, DC)
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Author: smokindok
Date: 2019-09-20 07:16
Bob made a typo in his email address, Bill. Check the email address in his profile and you will see the error.
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Author: Bill
Date: 2019-09-21 02:27
OK. Thanks!
Bill Fogle
Ellsworth, Maine
(formerly Washington, DC)
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