 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: m1964
Date: 2019-08-19 19:55
Hi
I recently got a used R13 Prestige A clarinet.
I has tuning problems. Some of those were caused by keys not lifting high enough. I corrected those and now the notes that were affected are in tune (grossly).
There is another problem I was unable to correct.
The whole instrument is low by about 10c.
It was a trade- in and it looks like the clarinet was not played recently.
Would the tuning improve as I play more?
Otherwise I have a choice of either cutting the original 65mm barrel or buying a 64 mm barrel.
Does anyone know much higher the tuning will move if I get the 64mm barrel?
Thank you
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2019-08-19 20:42
If you are playing an open 'G' that is ten cents bellow A=440, a 1.00mm difference is not going to cut it. Of course you may want to ensure that you have an "A" clarinet barrel (which has a narrower bore). Anything bellow 62mm for a standard Boehm clarinet is uncharted territory for me, so I'd say look at the bore; don't use Legere reeds (at least for now); use a higher pitch mouthpiece (ie a Vandoren standard as opposed to a 13 Series for example).
.............Paul Aviles
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Author: kdk
Date: 2019-08-19 22:54
m1964 wrote:
> It was a trade- in and it looks like the clarinet was not
> played recently.
> Would the tuning improve as I play more?
>
There's really only one way to find out. Assuming it isn't your primary A clarinet, use it at home during practice and see what happens over a week or two.
> Otherwise I have a choice of either cutting the original 65mm
> barrel or buying a 64 mm barrel.
I'd suspect that, even if the pitch comes up as you play on it, you may still want the flexibility of having a shorter barrel available, so I don't think that would be a bad investment.
>
> Does anyone know much higher the tuning will move if I get the
> 64mm barrel?
>
I'm inclined to agree with Paul that a 1 mm difference isn't going to move the overall pitch as much as 10 cents, so you'd have to cut a barrel down in any case if playing on the clarinet doesn't bring the pitch up. I just wouldn't cut the only barrel I own for the clarinet, especially if it's the original barrel. Buy a 64mm barrel, and if it doesn't do the job, have that cut further. The repair person who does the cutting might have an opinion about how much.
The pitch that results from pairing a specific barrel to a specific clarinet depends on both the length and the shape of the bore. You probably should stick to barrels with a Moennig taper and that are marked for A clarinet. Also, look to see if the barrel you have goes all the way down to the shoulder of the top joint - the end of the tenon. If it wasn't the original barrel, it's possible (though you probably would have noticed) that the barrel can't go all the way in because the socket is too short for the tenon, which might affect the pitch.
Karl
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Author: m1964
Date: 2019-08-20 02:09
kdk wrote:
.>
> There's really only one way to find out. Assuming it isn't your
> primary A clarinet, use it at home during practice and see what
> happens over a week or two.
> I'd suspect that, even if the pitch comes up as you play on it,
> you may still want the flexibility of having a shorter barrel
> available, so I don't think that would be a bad investment.
> I'm inclined to agree with Paul that a 1 mm difference isn't
> going to move the overall pitch as much as 10 cents, so you'd
> have to cut a barrel down in any case if playing on the
> clarinet doesn't bring the pitch up. I just wouldn't cut the
> only barrel I own for the clarinet, especially if it's the
> original barrel. Buy a 64mm barrel, and if it doesn't do the
> job, have that cut further. The repair person who does the
> cutting might have an opinion about how much.
>
> The pitch that results from pairing a specific barrel to a
> specific clarinet depends on both the length and the shape of
> the bore. You probably should stick to barrels with a Moennig
> taper and that are marked for A clarinet. Also, look to see if
> the barrel you have goes all the way down to the shoulder of
> the top joint - the end of the tenon. If it wasn't the original
> barrel, it's possible (though you probably would have noticed)
> that the barrel can't go all the way in because the socket is
> too short for the tenon, which might affect the pitch.
>
> Karl
Hello Paul and Karl,
Thanks a lot for quick response.
To Paul: The clarinet seems to be low about 10c when I play long C (the tuning note). The chalumeau G, F#, F and E are even a little lower, but the clarion notes are mostly in tune. When I say "in tune", I mean that they all are about 10c low.
When I bought this clarinet, the long C was about -20c, but the long B was -10c.
I was able to raise the pitch of long C by raising the E/B cap. I suspected that low E/B cup was affecting the tuning so I first took the E/B key off and checked- the "C" tuning went up to -10c.
After that, I did some adjustments on the E/B key and the foot of F/A key in order to raise the E/B cap and have both E/B and F/C keys closing properly.
To Karl: I absolutely agree with you that I would not want to cut the only barrel I got. The barrel does go all the way in, it is stamped "P13 A 65mm" which stands for Prestige A barrel.
I also have a Chadash barrel for an A clarinet but that one also is 65mm barrel. I have to try that one yet. Since the Chadash barrel looks almost new I do not want to cut it.
I can get a new 64mm R13 Prestige barrel, but I do not want to get a new barrel and have to cut it.
If the 64mm barrel would not bring the tuning up by 10c, then I'd rather buy a used R13 A barrel and cut it.
I am puzzled why this Prestige is so low in the first place…
I am going to speak to my tech, who did some undercutting on my Bb clarinet to bring those chalumeau E, F and G in tune. I hoped that he could do the same with this A clarinet.
I do like the sound of this Prestige better than the sound of RC I had before (which I traded in for this one). The RC sounded OK but lacked the ring/color. My wife (who plays viola) also noted improvement in the sound.
BTW, I play 2.5 Steuer reeds, but I do not think the reeds are the problem here since my A RC and both Bb clarinet are in tune, even with a 1-2 mm to spare.
Anyway, thanks for your help.
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Author: kdk
Date: 2019-08-20 02:22
It will be interesting to find out if the Chadash tunes differently.
Karl
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Author: m1964
Date: 2019-08-20 07:36
kdk wrote:
> It will be interesting to find out if the Chadash tunes
> differently.
>
> Karl
Good evening Karl,
Tried the clarinet with Chadash barrel and found it to tune almost (if not exactly) the same as the original barrel- if the open G was -15c with Buffet barrel, it was the same with Chadash barrel. I liked the sound of the Buffet barrel better than Chadash.
However, there is something else going on, with me I guess.
After playing the A clarinet , I took my Bb and checked tuning- it was a bit below 440 at first, and, after it warmed up, it was almost exactly in tune (well, except for the few notes that were not in tune in the first place). I do not think it was so low before.
There could be 2-3 reasons for the above:
1. I recently started changing the way I play. I changed the angle of the clarinet/MP, I am also trying to change the way I tongue because I was hitting the reed too low with the top of the tongue, not the tip of the tongue. Always had slow staccato, I think because of the way I played.
2. I started pulling the cheeks down more and I am trying to form stronger tension in the corners of the mouth.
3. I always had a problem with my low back that exacerbated three weeks ago. For the last three weeks, I have been taking painkillers and muscle relaxant medications that I have never taken before developing the problem.
I suspect that either one or all the above combined may cause the tuning to be low.
I am getting ready to have a surgery to correct my medical problem.
I hope that I will be able to start practicing soon after the procedure.
I will report on this forum if I am able to solve the low tuning issue.
Thanks to everyone who replied to my posts.
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Author: kdk
Date: 2019-08-20 16:50
Best of luck with the surgery. You have lots of company in the back pain club.
Karl
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2019-08-20 17:03
I would suggest you try to get seveal different barrels on a trial basis if you can't go to a place that stocks many. Different manufactures barrels tune differently. You should call Backun and ask him what he thinks and or some other barrel manufactures. Some mail order chops mights send you several as they do, or did, with mouthpieces. Of course make sure you try them warmed up becasue a cold instrument plays flat.
ESP eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: m1964
Date: 2019-08-21 02:11
Ed Palanker wrote:
> I would suggest you try to get seveal different barrels on a
> trial basis if you can't go to a place that stocks many.
> Different manufactures barrels tune differently. You should
> call Backun and ask him what he thinks and or some other barrel
> manufactures. Some mail order chops mights send you several as
> they do, or did, with mouthpieces. Of course make sure you try
> them warmed up becasue a cold instrument plays flat.
>
Hi Ed,
Thanks a lot for trying to help me.
I ordered a 64mm original R13 Prestige Buffet barrel. Could not find anyone in the US who had it in stock so ordered from the UK (Howarth).
I did not like the sound of Chadash barrel I have. Both barrels are 65mm. Comparing to the original Buffet barrel, Chadash sounded "simpler", the sound produced with it was not as rich comparing to the Buffet barrel.
So I decided to get the Buffet 64mm barrel and, if needed, I will have it cut.
I am an amateur player, on disability right now, so I am not in a position to buy exotic barrels. I would consider buying Backun or Moening barrel if the factory Prestige barrel was not satisfactory, but the Buffet barrel sounds good enough for me, right now anyway.
When/if I am back to work and feel that I can benefit from an upgraded barrel, I will try Backun. As it is, even the clarinets I have are overkill for my use.
Again, thanks a lot.
PS
Love your performance of Debussy.
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Author: kdk
Date: 2019-08-21 02:30
m1964 wrote:
> When/if I am back to work and feel that I can benefit from an
> upgraded barrel, I will try Backun. As it is, even the
> clarinets I have are overkill for my use.
>
When/if you decide to explore 3rd party barrels, don't focus on a particular name - different bore designs produce different timbral results and may respond differently from each other. A Buckun (since you picked up on his name from Ed's comment) isn't necessarily something that everyone would consider an upgrade. It depends on what result you're looking for, and Buckun (or Fobes, or Chadash or any of several others) may make some players ecstatic and others not so much.
You should try a number of different off-the-shelf alternatives, or you can work with someone like Allan Segal, who does excellent made-to-order work. And sometimes, when all is said and done, the barrel that was designed by the instrument manufacturer to work with their clarinets turns out to be optimal.
Karl
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Author: m1964
Date: 2019-08-21 07:32
kdk wrote:
> ... And sometimes, when all
> is said and done, the barrel that was designed by the
> instrument manufacturer to work with their clarinets turns out
> to be optimal.
>
> Karl
Hi Karl,
I am positive that there is at least one barrel that would improve the sound and possibly tuning of my clarinet.
The only thing is that, in order to find that one "perfect" barrel, I would need to buy 3-4 of each Moeing, Backun (2-3 models) and Icon barrels and test them all to find that one good barrel.
Preferably, have someone else listening as well. Unfortunately, not realistic to make it happen right now. And not really needed for my level of playing…
That is why I went with a "safe" bet on a Buffet Prestige barrel. In fact, my tech advised me to get 2-3 of those but Howarth only had two in stock so I took my 50/50 chance and ordered one barrel only.
I just wonder if there is any difference between R13 barrel and R13 Prestige barrel except for silver-plated rings.
The dimensions should be the same.
Again, many thanks for your help
Post Edited (2019-08-21 12:52)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2019-08-21 18:05
Actually I would think they SHOULD be different. The Prestige is a different tone color and that is achieved with a different bore. Consequently the bore of the barrel should be different as well.
Barrels from different years would also be different since specifications change over time.
For example
I ran across an old, short R13, Moening barrel that is 62mm long. It has solved just about all of my problems atop my new R13 Greenline. However, in an attempt to get a Greenline barrel to do roughly the same thing, I purchased a Greenline Icon (inverted bore as well). Unfortunately the shortest version is 64mm. Funny thing is the bore is quite a bit more narrow and I actually wind up pulling out a bit MORE with the 64mm Icon.
Just an example.
................Paul Aviles
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Author: Ed
Date: 2019-08-21 19:15
A couple of thoughts- do you have another mouthpiece you could try to see if that has an effect? Do you have any friends who could play it and see if they have the same result? You might try Allan Segal http://clarinetconcepts.com There are also nice barrels available from a number of other people who support this site who may be able to give you some help.
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Author: Alseg
Date: 2019-08-21 19:22
thanks Ed and Karl
easiest to reach me via my email alseg@aol.com
One of these days I will update the clarinetconcepts website
Former creator of CUSTOM CLARINET TUNING BARRELS by DR. ALLAN SEGAL
-Where the Sound Matters Most(tm)-
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Author: igalkov
Date: 2019-08-21 19:44
During my career, Buffet A clarinets always were flat. For now I have a matched pair of RC Prestiges, and I use 65mm on B and 62mm on A. With stock 64mm on A I can’t tune even close to my B (and overall orchestra).
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Author: Max S-D
Date: 2019-08-25 23:38
In the last few years I've made some changes to my embouchure and equipment that have brought my pitch down quite a bit. Back when I played more closed mouthpieces with harder reeds (and bit a lot), I needed to pull out a 67mm barrel usually 2 or 3mm to get to A440. Now, on the same R13 with a more open mouthpiece and a more medium-strength reed, I am pretty much dead on A440 with a 66mm barrel, so I think I might need to find a barrel a bit shorter to be ready for situations where people are tuned a little bit higher than 440.
If you'd like an affordable way to try a high quality barrel, I'd recommend the Fobes HDP Synthetic barrels. I picked one up for an older clarinet that needed a replacement barrel when I didn't want to spend too much money. It seems almost as good as my wooden Fobes (excellent) and even then it might be psychological. I threw it into my R13 case and accidentally put it on instead of the wooden one in a hurry one day and didn't feel anything amiss.
I tried a few of a few different sizes and found them to be very consistent. I was having a hard time telling them apart, to be honest.
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Author: m1964
Date: 2019-08-28 01:57
Thanks a lot to everyone who participated in this thread.
Well my Howarth order was cancelled because they need to get an export certificate. They are ready to do that but, in meanwhile I managed to have a spine surgery that did not go exactly as planned. Todays is the 1st time I am able to look at my phone. The barrel from Howarth would be a new style with a new logo so I am still trying to find an older Prestige A barrel w/o much luck so far.
I was thinking of buying a used " regular" r13 64mm barrel for an A clarinet but did not see any yet.
Something I definitely didn't anticipate when I got this r13 Presige A.
There was one clue that something was not 100% right: the top joint logo is worn out about halfway but the logo on the barrel is intact so my understanding is that whoever played the clarinet most likely used a different barrel.
If I was only able to find the person.
The clarinet was a trade-in from an Airforce orchestra.
Thanks
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Author: cigleris
Date: 2019-08-31 16:30
M1964, are you UK based? A couple of things struck me here. Firstly try and 64 and see. Also I get the impression that perhaps you are making it play flat. The other thought is that the ventings might be low making it play flat. Happy to try and help if you’re near London.
Peter Cigleris
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Author: m1964
Date: 2019-08-31 21:39
Hi Peter,
Thank you so much for trying to help me.
No, I am in the US.
Unfortunately, this instrument is not a simple case of adjustment. When I bought I noticed that the most of the notes were low by about 10c and the long C was low by about 20c. I increased the opening of long E/B cup and that brought the long C to be about 10c low which is in line with most of other notes.
I had to put off ordering of the 64mm Prestige A barrel from Howarth because I am still in the hospital, 11 days now instead of expected 2-3 days.
When/if I am out I will get the 64 mm barrel and check how much the overall tuning goes up. If not enough my tech would then cut either one of two barrels 65 or 64mm whichever sounds better. Then possibly do some undercutting in order to bring left hand chalumeau notes in tune if needed. I'd like to start with a native barrels. Howarth told me that physical dimention on the newer barrels did not change only the logo did.
Again, thanks a LOT for trying to help
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Author: cigleris
Date: 2019-09-01 12:10
No problem, though if it’s 10c below across the entire range then the instrument could be blown out and the bore warped. You mentioned it was used military instrument. Those instruments don’t always get cared for. Some of the ones if seen from the Royal Marines are pretty knocked about, cracked and the like.
If it’s only on certain notes than a shorter barrel might work. Though I would advice against chopping up a barrel. The tapering will be effected etc.
Peter Cigleris
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Author: m1964
Date: 2019-09-01 23:53
Hi Peter,
Thanks for replying to me.
The instrument was not cared for like it should've been but it sounded better than the RC I had. My wife, who is a string player, noted the difference in timbre.
Do you think that cutting the 64 mm barrel from the top by another 1mm would affect the taper?
In any case, I really don't have much of a choice: either get it to play properly or sell it and I won't feel comfortable selling it knowing that there is that defect.
** I did not think of the bore warping when I got it, to be honest.
I should have but at the time, just a few days before surgery, I barely walked and was on strong narcotic-based medication.
I guess now I'm looking for an excuse...
Post Edited (2019-09-02 02:45)
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