 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: abrogard
Date: 2019-08-16 02:25
Does anyone play without a thumb rest?
I'm not a musician. Just a beginning learner.
But I found I developed a large callus on my thumb and developed pain in my thumb, too.
And it all got worse and worse. Padding the rest and moving the rest didn't help.
So I took it off.
And I found I had to develop an entirely new way of holding the thing.
And I found the thumb moved into an entirely new position.
It now points upwards to take the weight of the clarinet and allow my hands to hold it and have a good grip on it.
Whereas, of course, before when using a thumb rest it pointed horizontally or even downwards.
Now I get no fatigue and have an entirely different feel about the whole thing. I literally feel I have a 'grasp' of the instrument.
I wonder. Does anyone else play without a thumb rest?
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Author: ms.lennox
Date: 2019-08-16 03:03
Hello!
I play without a thumb rest most of the time. I find it makes me feel like I have more control.
I'd be interested to know if anyone uses the Ton Kooiman adjustable thumb rests?
Michelle
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2019-08-16 03:42
Dear "abrogard,"
I am not understanding exactly how you support the horn. Are you using some sort of neck strap?
.............Paul Aviles
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Author: abrogard
Date: 2019-08-16 05:11
Hahh... pleased to meet another 'rest-less' player.
Have you done this for a long time or are new to it?
Know of any others that do it?
I have never used a Kooiman but just googled them. It seems the whole thing about them is that it takes the rest out sideways so's it can be carried on a different part of the thumb.
I might give them a try.
What interests me is the different thumb position when playing without a rest.
The thumb adopts a position which quite evidently is the best one for carrying the clarinet. And is quite different to the thumb rest position.
So: shouldn't thumb rests, if used, be positioned so that the thumb can adopt this 'rest-less' position?
Would seem to make sense to me.
I am looking to try it. Get holes drilled. Put a rest in above the thumb.
It would then be resting on only the tip, the top, of the thumb and would mainly simply make it easier to stop the horn slipping downwards and give a little more grip.
But that'd be fine. That's the only extra help I fee l I need.
Did you ever experience any trouble with the C# key when first playing without a rest? I don't remember such a problem when I did this years ago when first having a go at a clarinet but it's happening this time. Might be a pads problem though.
Paul: No neck strap. The hands support the clarinet. They literally 'grip' it. You feel you have a better grip because you have.
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Author: Ed
Date: 2019-08-16 06:46
Quote:
Paul: No neck strap. The hands support the clarinet. They literally 'grip' it. You feel you have a better grip because you have.
How does that work when you are playing notes that do not require RH fingers? Is the instrument stable when you are playing first line e, thumb f, open g, etc?
Post Edited (2019-08-16 06:47)
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2019-08-16 07:05
Very interesting subject! I moved the thumb rest on my horns. I feel the thumb rest should be about even to your index finger, but a lot of thumb rests are closer to the middle finger and this can put strain on your thumb. When sitting, some players also rest the clarinet bell on their right leg or between their knees. And some change out the thumb rest and use a neck strap. Mainly when standing.
I haven't heard of anyone taking off the thumb rest until now. You can buy on ebay and amazon adjustable rests and neck straps to avoid this strain on your thumb.
A decent repairman can move the thumb rest forward for you and plug the old holes for very little money. Mine are set at 1 3/16" from the top of the lower joint. This is comfortable for me on the Bb clarinet. I surely agree that the positions of thumb rests should be moved forward on most brands of horns.
Hope this helps a bit. I hope this gets rid of your pain and tension. Also on the saxophones these horns all have straps so why not use straps for the clarinets if it's a problem.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
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Author: abrogard
Date: 2019-08-16 08:33
From the factory this instrument has the thumb rest top positioned 1 3/8" from the bottom of the top joint. Or top of bottom joint. The join.
That's 1" and 3/8". 35mm.
When I simply hold the clarinet - and play it - without any rest my hand adopts a position where the thumb is angled and the topmost part of it which would touch the rest if there were one is a mere 3/4" from the join. Something like 17mm.
The ball of my thumb actually rests on the three holes for the thumb rest screws.
The instrument feels very stable when blowing an open G.
It is held on the left hand thumb on the thumb hole and the right hand thumb as I've indicated. The the first finger of the right hand rests on the bar carrying the ring holes and the little finger of the right hand holds closed the right hand bottom key - the F key.
Generally I am happy with this but it is true there are some times when I could use just a little more purchase.
So I intend to get holes drilled and move the thumbrest to a position where the top of the thumb just meets it.
I am saying 'the top of the thumb' here but you understand it is not strictly the very thumb tip - I just mean the end of the thumb rather than the flat of the first joint of the thumb is where the rest is making contact - or meant to when I get it done.
Because of this 'grip' on the instrument, which thumbrest playing doesn't give the hand, the thumb is also further around the instrument - it doesn't touch the instrument directly at the back along the line upon which the thumbrest is mounted but rather more over the left of it (from the player's perspective, looking from the back, i.e. player's right hand thumb is more over towards the player's left side).
So a new rest needs moving over as well as up.
I figure a movement of 3/4" up and 1/2" over.
Quite a large change.
It's my feeling that this is much more ergonomic.
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2019-08-16 15:02
I didn't have time to read the thread, but these are great if you are having thumb trouble:
https://www.wwr.co.uk/clarinet-support-to-suppliment-the-use-o.html
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Author: kdk
Date: 2019-08-16 20:51
I've come to the same conclusion as Bob - my hand is much more comfortable with my thumb lined up with my index finger. The original placement, even with the adjustable rest that came on my A clarinet, lined up more with my 2nd finger (next to the index). I've had the thumb rests on both my A and Bb clarinets moved up by my regular repairman. You are limited as to how high you can move it - you can't go so high that the screws go into the socket.
I've played bass clarinet without a thumb rest - I use a floor peg to support the instrument. I do find it much more comfortable than using the rest in its original position, and having the peg for support, I never really felt the need to experiment with a higher thumb rest position.
Karl
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2019-08-17 09:23
Well be just a bit open minded to change. I don't think you have to take off the thumb rest yet. As players we all have different needs. For example some players insist on really hard 5 strength reeds and actually clip the reed to make the reeds to 5 1/2 strengths, when another player is fine with 3 strength reeds. Yet each player has perhaps the same quality sound.
In your case maybe your hands are longer or shorter than the average. Mine are a shade longer. Just a shade. Yet others have very short fingers and they are not bothered at all by the position of the thumb rest.
Another example is I must have cork pads on the upper register. They simply feel better compared to the sponge feel of the Yamaha leather pads that come with the Yamaha's, which are actually just fine for 99 percent of the players.
I think it is great to post what is bothering you and to find solutions. You can also put a very soft rubber attachment over the thumb rest to add softness to your thumb. It slides over the thumb rest, but I don't know where to get them. I'm sure there are players that can advise us. I don't need them, but as posted above I have to move the thumb rest for better playing and faster finger technique. So keep trying different ideas and find that comfortable solution. Let us know what you do. I'll try to find where you can buy that rubber piece for the thumb. Cheers! B
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
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Author: albertarose
Date: 2019-08-21 03:48
Michelle - I have double jointed thumbs and just returned to playing after 35 years away. I played professionally back then and when I started back, my right wrist and thumb really suffered. I tried a neckstrap that only helped a bit. I went to the Kooiman thumb rest and it has made all the difference. I have the cheaper model ($50) and for me, its been a game changer.
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Author: GRADY
Date: 2019-08-21 15:58
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Post Edited (2019-09-19 12:25)
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Author: david1675
Date: 2019-08-21 18:51
Have you tried turning the thumb rest upside down. An upside down thumb rest would put your thumb in about the position your measurements suggest.
Also, I recently purchased a Kooiman Etude thumb rest as well. After finding the right adjustments for my own comfort, it's been great.
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Author: Late_returner
Date: 2019-08-22 22:57
In his book Educators Guide to the Clarinet, Tom Ridenour includes a whole page on The Right Hand Thumb. Including
" in the friction style no bite system the thing most responsible for adding pressure to the reed is the right hand thumb ( this is underlined) ..it is critical to the whole equation of reed control because it is the sole energy source that keeps the mouthpiece and reed firmly snugged against the lips". There is more on the importance of the right thumb.
I dont suppose everyone agrees with TR ( we are in clarinet land after all) but
If you do without a thumb rest can you achieve this pressure upward to the mp ? Or are you just holding it ?
If you "lay" the clarinet on the hand without a rest, are the fingers as easy to move? When i tried to do your no-rest hold my right fingers seemed noticeably slower, but i accept practice might be needed.
Roy
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Author: abrogard
Date: 2019-08-23 04:44
I would say that man has it wrong.
It is not 'just the thumb' but rather the grip on the machine.
If you hold it in such a fashion that it is 'only the thumb' then you're looking for trouble potentially - doing your hand physical damage potentially and perhaps even making playing more difficult.
Of course it is all 'horses for courses'. All players having different hands, different strengths and weaknesses and so on. On top of that all machines are subtly different. I have three clarinets, all different.
So I am certainly not trying to make any general assertions.
Except perhaps I'm tentatively asserting that surely if you are going to hold a stick to your mouth then wouldn't it make good sense to find the way your body most naturally would hold a stick to the mouth?
And holding without a thumb rest will do that.
It will enable you to find how your body wants to hold the thing.
That's all I'm 'asserting' if I'm asserting anything at all.
Yes, I do believe I can assert good pressure upwards, as much as is needed. And I don't really think much is needed actually.
But I'd content that holding the 'stick' without a thumbrest gives a better 'grip' on the stick and therefore makes it easier and more natural to exert directional pressure on the thing any which way you want it to go - up, down or sideways.
And the grip is better. It is not just 'laid' on the hand. Not at all. Without a thumbrest it has to be held. It has to be gripped. And it is held most particularly by the right hand with the triad and/or triangle of the three fingers - the thumb, the first joint of the index finger and the little finger.
With a thumbrest, contrariwise, it can be s imply 'laid' on the thumb and can roll about or loll about there, the whole weight simply laying on the thumb and there being no specific 'grip' on the thing at all.
To such an extent that in my short previous career as a student I developed quite a large callus and strained the musculature or ligaments or something within my hand to such an extent that it became constantly a great pain to hold the thing.
For me at least the essence of the whole thing seems to be that the rest forces my thumb to take the weight in whilst in a 'downward' position which is not the most effective way for the musculature of a thumb to take weight, strain.
Whereas without a rest the thumb adopts a position which is more 'upward' and seems to enable the musculature to better take the strain to such good effect that my hands, the right hand, now badly affected by joint pain, feels no pain whatever from clarinet practice, is never aggravated by it.
I find it very difficult to make effective photographs showing what I mean so I've resorted to a video. But unfortunately that's not very good, either. To amateurish, not showing what should be shown well enough at all.
Sorry. I will try to do better for my own sake at least, I'd like to make a good depiction of it all, of the theory.
But for the moment this is the best I have to offer and perhaps if interested parties download it and manipulate within their own video editors it may prove to be of some use:
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Author: abrogard
Date: 2019-08-23 04:50
I would say that man has it wrong.
It is not 'just the thumb' but rather the grip on the machine.
If you hold it in such a fashion that it is 'only the thumb' then you're looking for trouble potentially - doing your hand physical damage potentially and perhaps even making playing more difficult.
Of course it is all 'horses for courses'. All players having different hands, different strengths and weaknesses and so on. On top of that all machines are subtly different. I have three clarinets, all different.
So I am certainly not trying to make any general assertions.
Except perhaps I'm tentatively asserting that surely if you are going to hold a stick to your mouth then wouldn't it make good sense to find the way your body most naturally would hold a stick to the mouth?
And holding without a thumb rest will do that.
It will enable you to find how your body wants to hold the thing.
That's all I'm 'asserting' if I'm asserting anything at all.
Yes, I do believe I can assert good pressure upwards, as much as is needed. And I don't really think much is needed actually.
But I'd content that holding the 'stick' without a thumbrest gives a better 'grip' on the stick and therefore makes it easier and more natural to exert directional pressure on the thing any which way you want it to go - up, down or sideways.
And the grip is better. It is not just 'laid' on the hand. Not at all. Without a thumbrest it has to be held. It has to be gripped. And it is held most particularly by the right hand with the triad and/or triangle of the three fingers - the thumb, the first joint of the index finger and the little finger.
With a thumbrest, contrariwise, it can be s imply 'laid' on the thumb and can roll about or loll about there, the whole weight simply laying on the thumb and there being no specific 'grip' on the thing at all.
To such an extent that in my short previous career as a student I developed quite a large callus and strained the musculature or ligaments or something within my hand to such an extent that it became constantly a great pain to hold the thing.
For me at least the essence of the whole thing seems to be that the rest forces my thumb to take the weight in whilst in a 'downward' position which is not the most effective way for the musculature of a thumb to take weight, strain.
Whereas without a rest the thumb adopts a position which is more 'upward' and seems to enable the musculature to better take the strain to such good effect that my hands, the right hand, now badly affected by joint pain, feels no pain whatever from clarinet practice, is never aggravated by it.
I find it very difficult to make effective photographs showing what I mean so I've resorted to a video. But unfortunately that's not very good, either. To amateurish, not showing what should be shown well enough at all.
Sorry. I will try to do better for my own sake at least, I'd like to make a good depiction of it all, of the theory.
But for the moment this is the best I have to offer and perhaps if interested parties download it and manipulate within their own video editors it may prove to be of some use:
ahh... cannot add a video or even a link to one, I think.
I will try to put the link here I would say that man has it wrong.
It is not 'just the thumb' but rather the grip on the machine.
If you hold it in such a fashion that it is 'only the thumb' then you're looking for trouble potentially - doing your hand physical damage potentially and perhaps even making playing more difficult.
Of course it is all 'horses for courses'. All players having different hands, different strengths and weaknesses and so on. On top of that all machines are subtly different. I have three clarinets, all different.
So I am certainly not trying to make any general assertions.
Except perhaps I'm tentatively asserting that surely if you are going to hold a stick to your mouth then wouldn't it make good sense to find the way your body most naturally would hold a stick to the mouth?
And holding without a thumb rest will do that.
It will enable you to find how your body wants to hold the thing.
That's all I'm 'asserting' if I'm asserting anything at all.
Yes, I do believe I can assert good pressure upwards, as much as is needed. And I don't really think much is needed actually.
But I'd content that holding the 'stick' without a thumbrest gives a better 'grip' on the stick and therefore makes it easier and more natural to exert directional pressure on the thing any which way you want it to go - up, down or sideways.
And the grip is better. It is not just 'laid' on the hand. Not at all. Without a thumbrest it has to be held. It has to be gripped. And it is held most particularly by the right hand with the triad and/or triangle of the three fingers - the thumb, the first joint of the index finger and the little finger.
With a thumbrest, contrariwise, it can be s imply 'laid' on the thumb and can roll about or loll about there, the whole weight simply laying on the thumb and there being no specific 'grip' on the thing at all.
To such an extent that in my short previous career as a student I developed quite a large callus and strained the musculature or ligaments or something within my hand to such an extent that it became constantly a great pain to hold the thing.
For me at least the essence of the whole thing seems to be that the rest forces my thumb to take the weight in whilst in a 'downward' position which is not the most effective way for the musculature of a thumb to take weight, strain.
Whereas without a rest the thumb adopts a position which is more 'upward' and seems to enable the musculature to better take the strain to such good effect that my hands, the right hand, now badly affected by joint pain, feels no pain whatever from clarinet practice, is never aggravated by it.
I find it very difficult to make effective photographs showing what I mean so I've resorted to a video. But unfortunately that's not very good, either. To amateurish, not showing what should be shown well enough at all.
Sorry. I will try to do better for my own sake at least, I'd like to make a good depiction of it all, of the theory.
But for the moment this is the best I have to offer and perhaps if interested parties download it and manipulate within their own video editors it may prove to be of some use:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/MF8obF8unpusaUR39
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