 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2019-08-15 23:08
Hi,
I wondered if anyone has figured out whether Yamaha currently sell a slightly short barrel (63mm-ish) for a Yamaha Custom CX? (It comes with a 65m barrel)
I am currently using a 3rd party 63mm barrel, which brings the clarinet beautifully into tune with my embouchure and setup, but the actual Yamaha
barrel really transforms the tone, and makes the instrument much less resistant.
I asked Yamaha, and they said I should approach my dealer. I approached my dealer and they said they could shorten my barrel, but they were reluctant to do it, because my embouchure would eventually be strong enough to play it in tune.
But I also asked a local professional to play the instrument and she played it for an hour, and said I should definitely get hold of a short barrel for it.
I just wondered if anyone had managed to find such a thing, or if I would need to buy a second 65mm barrel and ask my local shop to shorten it?
Thanks!
Jennifer
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2019-08-16 00:09
There is so much about the idea of "a strong embouchure bringing pitch up" that I don't like. But I will only say that Legere (all synthetic reeds really) will oscillate at their designated strength ONLY. You can't muscle them up......they just close off.
That said, I would just go ahead and shorten your current barrel. There is always the need to have flexibility to move your pitch up and down to a good degree; band mates that vary, overly hot days (need to bring pitch down), overly cold days (need to bring pitch up), etc. So have a combination that allows you travel both ways. If I don't have at least 3mm of barrel pulled out, I start to sweat profusely. No, actually, I just run out and buy a shorter barrel.
............Paul Aviles
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Author: kdk
Date: 2019-08-16 00:24
You could compromise and buy another Yamaha 65mm barrel or the shortest stock Yamaha barrel you can find and have that one shortened, so you'd have both.
Karl
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2019-08-16 00:28
Hi Jennifer, I don't think so. I think they go down to 64mm's. However I am not positive. I am a Yamaha Artist and I did text them. No one replied yet. They may not reply as this is a really busy month because they are filling 1000's of school orders.
If I don't hear from them it's surely a no. The interesting part is they order about 1000 at a time from Japan and a person in NYC adjusts them. He puts assorted tapers on the insides of the bores.
Do you have a tuner? They cost about $30. Korg makes a very decent one that includes a metronome, but there are other brands as well which can do the job. You can even download one from the internet. The goal is to hit about 440 or above. But the upper register may go a shade flat for now until your embouchure gets stronger. This simply takes patience. Every player goes through this. In fact the saxophones are much more forgiving. Give yourself at least 2 years before worrying too much and the idea that you are aware of this now is very good.
I just read the posts above and they weren't there when I wrote this. Both of these guys are really talented so you can trust them. Lastly I'm in the process of going into the barrel biz, so if I feel I come up with a good barrel I'll
let you know.
https://usa.yamaha.com/products/musical_instruments/winds/accessories/clarinet_barrels/features.html
Here is the website
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
Post Edited (2019-08-16 00:47)
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2019-08-16 15:00
Hi,
Thanks so much for those replies. They really fit with what I was thinking myself, and I'm really glad to know that I'm heading in the right direction.
I think I will try to buy a second Yamaha barrel and have one of them shortened. My 63mm sounds in tune, but I think I could go shorter to be properly in tune according to the tuner, and shorter still to have a bit of leeway for tuning on hot days and things. I have a handheld tuner device, and I also use an online tuner, and both show the same results.
Bob - that's brilliant that you are selling Yamaha barrels now. I would be really glad to hear if you feel that you have found a good one that would suit. I'm playing a Custom CX, sold in the UK. I'm not sure that there is a CX on your page, but maybe it has a different name where you are? Is it right that you can message me privately through the BBoard system if you find something? It would be lovely to hear from you.
Thanks so much for that.
Best wishes,
Jennifer
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2019-08-16 17:44
I admit to being confusing earlier.
Hot equals HIGH. You pull out.
Cold equals LOW. You push in.
...............Paul Aviles
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Author: Alseg
Date: 2019-08-16 19:19
Many of my custom requests are for short Yamaha barrels. That seems to be a common theme. You can, of course, have one shortened by a knowledgeable tech.
Former creator of CUSTOM CLARINET TUNING BARRELS by DR. ALLAN SEGAL
-Where the Sound Matters Most(tm)-
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2019-08-16 23:01
Hi Alseg,
Thanks, it's good to know that others do the same, and that you make barrels yourself. I'm in the UK so should probable find someone here, but it's good to know that that's what you do.
The professional that I visited had a pair of Yamaha clarinets that she also played with a short barrel.
I think I will ask my local shop if they can shorten mine. They are only 20 minutes cycle away and very good. I have an exam coming up at some point, and going in flat doesn't seem like a good plan. :-)
Thanks!
Jennifer
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2019-08-17 04:21
A slight correction. I hope to make barrels for all types of horns. The inside will be a very hard rubber to prevent the bore from expanding and offer much better tuning. The outside should be wood. I may know more in a month or 2. I'm waiting on patent information first before I get into this. So I may or may not go into the business.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2019-08-17 16:03
I just asked my local shop and they said they can shorten my barrel for me, so that's great.
I just need to work out how much now, because the lower register is flat and the top register is in tune. I suppose the answer is " a bit, but not too much". :-)
They also said they can ask Yamaha what other lengths are available, so maybe there is scope for trying different lengths to see what works.
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Author: kdk
Date: 2019-08-17 19:17
Keep in mind that the shortest length notes (especially the throat notes) will move more than the longest ones as you change the barrel length. If you move to a barrel that's short enough to get E/B and F/C in tune, you may need to have the throat notes brought down a little with tape or something similar placed in some of the tone holes.
Karl
Post Edited (2019-08-17 20:11)
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2019-08-17 20:01
Thanks, I didn't realise that. I'll test again and see how the throat notes are behaving relative to everything else.
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Author: kdk
Date: 2019-08-17 20:14
I just edited my post to say "if you move to a barrel that's short enough" instead of "long enough" - but you got the point. And it works either way - a change in the length at the top of the instrument (barrel or mouthpiece) will affect the shortest lengths more than the full length of the clarinet. It's a result of the effect of the percentage - proportion - of the change.
Karl
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2019-08-17 21:01
Attachment: clarinet tuning.jpg (33k)
Hi,
I just did a proper test of tuning using a tuner, rather than my ear and a piano, and the result is really strange.
Attached is a screenshot of the tuning chart, with tunings marked as +1 where the note is 1/10th of a semi-tone sharp, and -1 when the note is 1/10th of a semi-tone flat.
It seems as though the clarinet tuning is varying by only tiny amounts round perfect tuning with the 65mm barrel, but is a bit flat in the lower register and a bit sharp in the upper register as I thought.
With the 63mm barrel, it is showing up as either perfectly tuned or really quite sharp.
It's funny that it sounds odd when a tiny bit flat, but not odd when it is really quite sharp.
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Author: kdk
Date: 2019-08-17 21:48
The general consensus of any discussion I've read is that people, or at least those whose exposure is mostly to Western scales and tuning, tend to accept or even prefer sharpness over flatness. You may just be demonstrating the point.
That the two barrels don't seem consistent in their effect on the tuning may be because it isn't just the length of the barrel that affects the tuning. It's the total volume of the air column - meaning in this case, the total bore volume. And in some ways the shape of the barrel's bore can affect tuning. Moennig's tapered bore was meant originally to correct sharpness in the upper clarion register of the Buffets he sold and serviced. Your whole clarion register is sharp with the 63mm, and seems to be verging upward toward G5 and A5. Check B5 and C6 and see what they're doing.
Also throat G and A are much sharper with the 63 than the lowest couple of notes are. You probably shouldn't worry too much about E3 and F3 being a little flat - that's very typical of Boehm clarinets and correcting it at the barrel is done at the risk of causing sharpness both in the 12ths of those notes and in the throat notes. Looking at your chart, I'd suggest that your 63 might be overkill and you'd get to a better balance overall with a stock 64 mm Yamaha barrel, which will more resemble the 65 internally and work best with the Yamaha overall bore design. If the 64 is still flat anywhere except the lower extreme, you can still have it shortened if you like.
You'll never get a scale that's completely in tune with itself. The best you can do is have most of the notes within an acceptable range. And you still have to be able to correct for other players' tuning anomalies. IMO (others may disagree) a barrel that will bring your throat tones within 1 or 1.5 cents while pushed all the way in is probably the right length (regardless of where it leaves E3 and F3) unless the result is unworkable everywhere else (meaning that the throat notes are too sharp to the rest of the clarinet to begin with).
Karl
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2019-08-17 22:10
One cent pushed all the way in????
You must play with the Chicago Symphony!
.............Paul
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Author: kdk
Date: 2019-08-17 22:45
1 to 1.5 lines on a tuner scale - I guess that's actually 10-15 cents. Sorry. Brain freeze.
BTW, SunnyDaze, what were the numbers on your chart? I assume they were the same tuner lines?
Karl
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2019-08-18 00:10
Attachment: tuner.jpg (98k)
Hi Karl,
Thanks for commenting. It's really interesting to know that sharpness is more acceptable generally. I didn't know that.
The units on the chart are the 10ths of a semi-tone as shown on this web tuner: https://www.alexdemartos.es/wtuner/
I have attached a screenshot so you can see.
I'm quite encouraged by the result, as it seems as though the off-the-shelf 64mm barrel may work, as you say, which seems better than messing with my existing one, with the possible knock-on effects on the tone.
Thanks!
Jennifer
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2019-08-18 00:16
Btw, just in case you are wondering why I am suddenly splitting hairs about tone and sharpness and things like that, I had a bit of an epiphany recently - possibly I should explain.
I play in this little community orchestra, and we had a concert at the beginning of the summer and a really amazing clarinet player came along to play the first clarinet role. He was very very good and his clarinet sounded as though it was hand-carved by actual unicorns. Anyway, ever since that I've been noticing the short-comings in my own playing and am trying to do my best to fix them. I think mostly it wants practice and experience, but I'm working on that too. But I think that getting the reeds and barrel right will help.
Thanks so much for all of your advice, I really appreciate it.
Jen
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2019-08-18 02:11
The perception of pitch is such (unless one is blessed, or cursed, with perfect pitch) sharp notes bother us much less as Karl states. This is why when a violinist (and most string players tune) you hear them "scoop up" from about a half step beneath the note they are tuning.
The other thing to try if possible is to do your pitch chart, with a buddy. You play, and they look at the tuner and note the pitch (after tuning to a tuning pitch first of course). Done by yourself, you will naturally make compensations as you play and see the needle too high or too low.
..........Paul Aviles
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2019-08-18 09:07
Hi Paul,
Thanks, I was wondering about that. I'll try that today.
Jen
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2019-08-18 11:19
Hi,
I just tried doing the same exercise, but instead of looking at the tuner, I videoed it and noted down the pitches afterwards when I'd stopped playing.
You're right, I do correct the pitch a lot when I am looking at the tuner.
When I am not looking at the tuner, the 65mm barrel makes it flat across the full range, and I am half and half flat and sharp with the 63mm barrel.
Jen
Adult learner, Grade 3
Equipment: Yamaha Custom CX Bb, Fobes 10K CF mp,
Legere Bb clarinet European Cut #2.5, Vandoren Optimum German Lig.
Post Edited (2019-08-18 11:19)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2019-08-18 14:42
I take it we are looking at low "E" at the top of the chart.
So the relationship between the low "E" and the middle line "B" look healthy and normal.
For myself (when untamed) I usually see some high notes between the "G" and "B" below the staff. Do you pull out at the center between the upper and lower joints? If so, try NOT doing that.
Otherwise though, the tuning is not bad at all. However, in the less than crack professional groups, tuning usually rides high, so if you have a fair percentage of notes that are below A=440, you may have a rough time with your bandmates. And that is a BIG part of why I feel a need to be able to adjust to a good degree up or down at will (with the "up" requiring having a good gap between barrel and top joint).
...............Paul Aviles
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2019-08-18 22:42
Hi Paul,
Thanks, yes, the chart goes from lowest notes at the top to highest notes at the bottom.
I do completely understand what you mean about needing leeway to go with the group that I am playing with. I have wondered about trying a Paulus & Schuler zoom barrel, but I'm not sure if the tone would be as good as it is with the actual Yamaha barrel.
The other possibility is to buy a 54mm Yamaha barrel, and keep my current 63mm one as a back-up if I need to play with a group that is sharp. It's a bit tight but I think my local shop could easily make it a bit wider inside so as to fit again. I kind of think that that may be the nicer option as the warm tone really means a lot to me. I would also then still have the 65mm one if I somehow grow into it.
I'd be glad to know what you think.
Best wishes,
Jennifer
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2019-08-19 06:42
Somewhere there may have been some miscommunication about barrel size. All the Yamahas use fairly normal lengths EXCEPT the CSG which is 10mm shorter.....because the top joint is 10mm longer.
If you are a little flat at 64mm, just shaving that down a couple of millimeters should be all you need.
..............Paul Aviles
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2019-08-19 11:33
Hi Paul,
Thanks, yes, I understood that the CSG was very different. My E.J. Arnold clarinet is the same, and has a very short barrel, as it was designed to have a long MP.
I reckon that 64mm or 63mm should work for me as you say.
Thanks!
Jennifer
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2019-08-20 00:40
I'll be out of town for a bit. On tour, however whenever the upper notes go a bit flat sometimes it's related to reeds that are just a bit too soft. I'll try to stop in if I can. Try using a half strength harder reed if you can. Let us know if this helps at all. Often the lower notes don't go flat but the upper notes might. If you can record yourself playing half notes up the register this will help us readers perhaps decide if it's the horn, the barrel, or maybe your something with your mouth muscle formation. Are you making an E or an O sound with your embouchure? Both? Too much of an O can cause the notes to go flat. Yet an E isn't correct either. It's complicated. Perhaps check out Lee Gibson on youtube. He is a really gifted player and talks about this a bit.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3wD_ABnsxx8
Cheers! Bob
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
Post Edited (2019-08-20 08:20)
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2019-08-21 00:10
Hi Bob,
Thanks for that.
I have tried a half strength up, but I just get really sore muscles trying to play for even a few minutes. The man in shop tried to show me what to do with my embouchure to bring it into tune, but that really hurt too, and my teacher said my embouchure is coming along fine and that I should just keep going as I am, so I think it's okay.
I think I am going to ask to try a Yamaha 64mm barrel and see how that goes, but could I maybe show you a recording after that? I was really be glad to hear what you think.
I hope you have a great time on your travels. :-) Thanks so much for looking in. I really appreciate it.
Jen
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2019-08-23 01:01
Sneaking in a fast reply here. I happen to think about this. When playing we must remember when tuning and playing in tune with other instruments or fellow clarinet players, we have to be flexible, for example the triad of 1, 3, and 5, such as C, E, and G major, or the third, if we are playing the E the E sometimes has to be played a tiny bit on the flat side, to be in tune. Real tiny, maybe 5 cents or so. We have to adjust our embouchure. It's much easier to play flat than to bite sharp.
So be aware of this when picking out a barrel.
As far as the throat tones these notes can be somewhat adjusted by a repairman by adjusting the height levels of the keys, so don't tune your horns based on these notes. Also when playing these throat tones if these notes are long notes I always use alternate fingerings. Ask your teacher or other players for these alternate fingerings. It really helps with tuning.
Lastly, stay with the same mouthpiece for a decent length of time. The bore of the mouthpiece actually is relevant, often a key factor to tuning your horn. So once you are set with the MP (mouthpiece) in my opinion, you can tune your horn by undercutting tone holes, things of this nature. If you have't totally committed to a mouthpiece yet don't mess with tuning your horn. Hope this helps. It's really a science.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
Post Edited (2019-08-23 01:02)
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2019-08-23 19:51
Hi Bob,
Thanks so much for that. I'll keep it all in mind as I figure things out. I'm really committed to this MP. I've had it for at least 6 months and I tried about a dozen others and they were not nearly as comfortable to play for me. I actually find it really helpful that that decision was so clearly right as it narrow down the options and allows me to fine tune elsewhere.
My teacher is absolutely set against me using extra fingers on the throat notes. I'm a bit confused about that as everybody else seems to do it, but I'm happy to follow his judgement as he really did well himself in his clarinet playing career.
Today I dropped off my 63mm barrel to be adjusted so it's not too narrow to go on the clarinet, so that will solve one problem. I haven't heard back from Yamaha UK about what lengths of barrels they sell, but hopefully soon.
I had no idea that tuning in the throat notes could be adjusted by a technician. That really sounds like a wonderful thing. :-) I'd love to know more about that.
Thanks!
Jen
Adult learner, Grade 3
Equipment: Yamaha Custom CX Bb, Fobes 10K CF mp,
Legere Bb clarinet European Cut #2.5, Vandoren Optimum German Lig.
Post Edited (2019-08-23 19:54)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2019-08-23 21:19
You can judge for yourself what putting some extra fingers do to your throat notes. What that does is extend some amount of air column resonance. The trade off is that it will (usually but not always) lower the pitch slightly and you therefore make that adjustment with your embouchure.
Typically the best throat Bb vent (using the "A" key and register) would be adding the third finger of both hands and the "F/C" pinky key. I prefer adding the second and third fingers of both hands with NO pinky key because you can go in and out without any problems.
For throat "A" I will usually add the first finger of the right hand. For "G#" and "G" natural you could use the second and third fingers of the right hand.
All these are subject to changes in efficacy based on different clarinets and how you play. There is nothing wrong with experimenting to find your own solutions........which should have been the advice you got from your teacher.
..............Paul Aviles
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2019-08-23 22:50
Hi Paul,
Thanks for that. Yes I think I found that the 2nd and 3rd of each hand and the F key were good but my teacher says I've definitely not to use extra fingers, so I'm just sticking with that. I'm wondering a bit if his very powerful lungs make a difference as he's a professional singer. Not sure though.
I'm happy to follow his advice, and find out what alternative solutions he teaches me, so it's all fine. Thanks for the thought though.
Jen
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2019-09-01 10:54
Hi,
The man in my local shop looked into this and it seems that Yamaha only make one length of barrel for this model of clarinet, but he is going to order one and cut it down to 63mm. That's good isn't it?
Thanks!
Jen
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