 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Wicked Good ★2017
Date: 2019-06-27 23:30
Buffet Crampon Paris' Facebook page describes a new, German system Tosca clarinet coming out in 2020. That may prove interesting. I wonder if they'll get any traction with that instrument?
https://www.facebook.com/BuffetCramponParis/photos/pcb.1905909746176749/1905901336177590/?type=3&theater
(Edited to link directly to a description of the German Tosca.)
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Post Edited (2019-07-04 02:09)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2019-06-27 23:50
The cool part about that is that I don't believe Buffet Paris had EVER made a Oehler system clarinet (you clarinet history buffs need to fact check me on that)!
And that was more about history and economics. The second world war put some distance between the the "two schools" and since then there has just been more buyers for Boehm.
I'd really love to see one in Knoxville. Buffet?
....................Paul Aviles
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2019-06-27 23:55
Don’t forget that Theobald Böhm was German... so in a way, Buffet have actually been making German clarinets all along! :-)
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Author: dorjepismo ★2017
Date: 2019-06-28 00:18
No plateau, so strictly speaking, it might not be considered an Oehler. Also, no doubled F/C tonehole. Low E correction; couldn't see if there's also a low F correction. Looks like a German style mouthpiece.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2019-06-28 00:30
I respectfully disagree with the NON German assessment. There are only two right pinky keys with rollers, wrap around register key, all the rods are on the (player's) left side, AND there is the full sized cup vent on the bell.......Oehler in my book.
Gerold Klarinette made in Austria - no plateau
https://www.gerold-klarinetten.at/amadeus-de-luxe.html
[click on arrows to right to rotate]
.............Paul Aviles
Post Edited (2019-06-28 00:51)
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Author: donald
Date: 2019-06-28 03:16
No Paul, I don't think you understand - there is the German fingering system, and there is an Oehler system (same fingerings, but with extra vent keys). To be an "Oehler System" there has to be the Oehler mechanisms (most easily identified by a finger plate for the right hand middle finger). Austrian clarinets generally don't use the full Oehler, for instance.
Not every "German system" is also an "Oehler system".
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2019-06-28 09:26
Thanks Donald. This is yet another issue that never came up when I was investigating, playing and selling my Wurlitzers. Not much interweb happening in 1980.
If I went through the same process today, much of that would have been much easier and better informed.
Thanks again for that Donald.
...............Paul Aviles
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Author: jd
Date: 2019-06-28 10:16
The price for this could be 5000 - 5500 €. For this money you can buy prof. clarinets made by Adler, Rolf Meinel or used clarinets made by S&S, Wurlitzer, mostly in a good condition.
For me it does not make sense. In Germany are a lot of woodwind maker. Why I should buy a german style Buffet- Crampon?
What kind of bore it will be? German or Vienna bore? M. Schorn is playing the Vienna clarinet.
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Author: jd
Date: 2019-06-28 11:45
...sorry, I forgot to mention: competition is good. And of course
I try to play the german Buffet clarinet
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Author: Phurster
Date: 2019-06-28 14:12
I wonder if it has a German style bore?
The bore would have to be somewhat different to accommodate the smaller mouthpiece and the German spacing of the tone holes.
If it's that different what's the connection with the french style Tosca?
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2019-06-28 14:22
It would by necessity be a German bore. That is why there is a large vent on the bell. The bore flares more subtley and closer to the bottom. That creates an "in tune" long "B" but a very flat Low "E" and Low "F."
I assume that Buffet is just giving their premiere name to the horn to indicate that it is a top professional horn.
At one point in more recent history Karl Leister endorsed the Yamaha German system clarinets over Wurlitzer. Perhaps Buffet is shooting for (or already has) a similar endorsement for their roll out of this horn.
.................Paul Aviles
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2019-06-28 16:07
Buffet, along with Selmer and Penzel-Mueller, was, for many years, a major producer of Albert System clarinets. Most of the early New Orleans Jazz clarinetists played Alberts in those brands rather than the original Belgian E. Albert brand or German and Austrian brands, which do not seem to have been widely available in the US. Of course, since Buffet developed the Boehm clarinet (in collaboration with H. Kose) and marketed the Klose system as an improvement, the Buffet name would become strongly associated with it.
In today's diversified global market, clarinet players in any given country might play any brand or model instrument. Vandoren makes a wide variety of German and Austrian style mouthpieces; Japanese players buy quite a number of German system and Oehler instruments; and Yamaha and Leblanc already produce and market German style clarinets. German players no longer necessarily use long, close facings, and many play French style reeds. It will be interesting to see if Selmer also jumps into the fray with a German system instrument as well.
For the German Tosca to compete with the hand made German instruments diligent and dependable quality control will be essential. Price point will also be a big factor in the success or failure of this instrument. Let's hope that the German Tosca motivates Buffet to improve its quality control and set-ups, and that improvement eventually transfers to their Boehm instruments as well!
Post Edited (2019-06-28 21:03)
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Author: jd
Date: 2019-06-28 16:50
Well, I do not think, that it must be a german bore.
The austrian model by Hammerschmidt (OH 330)or Gerold
have the E / F correction, too. It could be possible...but I think they take the german bore. You are right. @ Paul
More sense for me would be if Buffet would make
a Reform Böhm. S&S, Dietz, Leitner und Kraus are producing
a lot of Reform Böhm. They send their clarinets in the whole world.
Maybe there is a market for Buffet if they would produce a Reform. It would be a bigger market.
Is the french player interesting in the Reform Böhm?
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2019-06-28 18:20
Dear Seabreeze,
Though I believe that Wurlitzer, Gerold and other small custom makers make very fine horns, they are not infallible. My circa 1984 Wurlitzer 100Cs were by far the most evenly in tune and consistent timbre from bottom to top of any horns I played. HOWEVER, the finishing (much like the much maligned finishing on the Buffets) left something to be desired. Damping corks where consistently placed ON TOP of adjustment screws rather than on the opposing surface. That was stupid and had to be redone when I took delivery of my pair. Even paying three times the price of a typical top of the line mass produced horn doesn't guarantee perfection..........only improvement.
But yes, if Buffet is competing any where near the professional market, they will need to field a solid contender.
Dear Jd,
Seriously? I'm not speaking to the subtle differences of one Teutonic bore to another (I'm ok with the Oehler distinction......at least until I hear otherwise from German colleagues). I broadly speak of the difference from what we know here in the States vs. the German system bore over there (a really big difference).
...............Paul Aviles
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Author: jd
Date: 2019-06-28 19:07
Dear Paul,
Thank you!
Best regards from Germany
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Author: dorjepismo ★2017
Date: 2019-06-28 20:05
Well, given that they're working with a player in the Vienna Phil and it looks more like an Austrian instrument, their starting point is probably Austrian, but if they want it to have a characteristic Toscanized sound, they'll have to be doing something different. What would they change if they wanted something like a Gerrold or Kronthaler, only more agile, more centered, or with a ping?
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Author: donald
Date: 2019-06-29 02:30
So, what if they've made a clarinet with their "Tosca bore" but with German fingering? That would explain why it's not "full Oehler" key system (as the extra Oehler mechanism is partly to compensate for a long cylindrical bore in the lower joint, but may not be necessary with the flared French bore). Just a thought. Buffet could of course just set us straight by telling us, though they seem shy about details.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2019-06-29 09:14
Regarding whether the bore is "identical" to a French bore, I will take one more stab at an explanation. Look at the shortness of the barrel. Of course you could say, it doesn't matter where you break up the bore BUT you could not use your current Tosca barrel on the German version.
Then one assumes that the new Buffet accepts a German mouthpiece. German mouthpieces are longer, have an entirely different bore/tone chamber from French mouthpieces and play LOWER in pitch (and additionally have a thicker tenon and do not fit into the upper socket of a French clarinet barrel).
The French Tosca features the Low F correction key. There isn't one on the German version because it utilizes a huge vent on the bell. This means that the Low F and Low E are even flatter than on the French version (and therefore cannot be the same bore).
The bores of the French Tosca and the Tradition are probably MUCH closer in shape and tolerances (and I know the tradition is more purposely cylindrical).
...................Paul Aviles
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Author: donald
Date: 2019-06-30 06:03
I have 5 or 6 German mouthpieces (for use with German system clarinets, not just a French mouthpiece from a zinner blank) from a variety of sources- they all fit my main 66mm French barrel except for one. I have a Muncy 65mm barrel that is fractionally smaller in the tenon, and this doesn't fit 3 or 4 of them, so obviously there are other variables that the German tenon size. Oddly enough 3 of these mouthpieces play with perfectly acceptable tuning on a Buffet clarinet, and 2 of them have great tone but the 12ths are 10c to 20c out making them completely unplayable.
One Wurlitzer mouthpiece is fine (and has in fact been played in NZSO) while another (admittedly of older vintage) has the crazy intonation. Take from this what you will, but it's obviously not as simple as "German mouthpieces don't work with Boehm clarinets" - I proclaimed this myself for many years but have been proven wrong.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2019-06-30 07:44
So the mouthpiece thing is more nuanced. My main experience with German mouthpieces is with a potpourri of various facings from Wurlitzer (for the 100Cs), three Hammerschmidts and a so called Zinner Blank. All had tenons that were too big to fit into the Buffets and Yamahas that I had at the time. I did nothing at the time to marry the two different systems together.
Enter Bas DeJong of Viotto mouthpieces about four years ago. His main message to ALL of us is that the German approach to embouchure is simple, easy and way less physical or complicated than what most of us in the States do. So he set out to spread the word that all you have to do is take 1.00mm from the diameter of the German tenon (and shorten the tenon 1.00mm as well) and, voila, you have a German mouthpiece that fits a French clarinet. He encourages folks to try his Viotto mouthpieces modified for French clarinet and pair that with a Vandoren White Master Traditional #2 1/2 reed for an easy to play, great sounding experience. As Bas would say you just put it in your mouth and blow!!
I spent about two years experimenting with this concept initially on the Viotto N1 then with some of my still existing Wurlitzers using a modified barrel. What happened for me was that though the German mouthpieces do "work" with French clarinets with some modifications, there are more accommodations for pitch than what I find practical - particularly in the altissimo.
Perhaps I would recommend the experience in terms of training. You can try this for a few years as I have and then find a Boehm mouthpiece that gives you the closest experience to that........great sound and response with very little effort.
................Paul Aviles
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Author: Reformed
Date: 2019-06-30 19:40
First to pay homage to the origin of this thread "Buffet German clarinets", my reaction is similar to that for Vandoren German mouthpieces - why bother when there is plenty of choice in the German market place that is already top quality?
Now to follow upon the comments of Paul A and Donald above, I can add that Eaton Elites and pre-war B&H 1010s play well in tune with a German mouthpiece reamed to the right dimension. I think the intonation is pretty much the same as a native 1010 mouthpiece. I would expect that correctly bored German style mouthpiece should play any good Boehm clarinet in tune.
Paul's relaying of Bas DeJong's comments confirm my own experience and rehabilitation as a newly relaxed player. Over 50 years of playing I had become incredibly tense and hunched over and my every movement, e.g. to help squeeze out a high note, simply served to increase the tension. My neck and throat were very tight and restricted.
Enter a Hans Colber mouthpiece that play my Reform Boehm's in tune and I had to recognise that simply relax and blow was the solution. Following the Alexander technique of the head in neutral position balanced on top of the spine naturally relaxes and opens the throat. The same embouchure applies bottom to very top (well nearly!)
I've since returned to my Elites with a re-bored L&K mouthpiece and am now over the moon with the setup.
I must point out that I am not trained in the Alexander technique (yet) but I think many clarinet players may have the same problems that Alexander had himself and that led to the technique. In Alexander's case, tension so bad that he lost his voice as an actor.
I now look at the posture of many good players and their body movements while playing and think "you could be so much better...".
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