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 Double Tonguing
Author: Roxann 
Date:   2019-03-23 22:01

I am, as Paul Aviles so correctly put it, a genetically "slow tonguer." He suggests those of us so afflicted learn to double tongue. If it's possible to explain without having to show, would someone mind explaining how to do it? Thanks!



Post Edited (2019-03-23 22:02)

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 Re: Double Tonguing
Author: Ken Lagace 
Date:   2019-03-23 22:24

There is much on YouTube on it. You may have to try a few videos to see what works for you. And it is a slow learn, so don't get discouraged. I know a few players who had to learn it and after hard work, they sound as if they use the single tongue way.



Post Edited (2019-03-23 22:24)

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 Re: Double Tonguing
Author: Paul Aviles 
Date:   2019-03-24 02:01

Here is one of my favorite quick tutorials:



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JVRgKs5t86A


That said, I'm pretty sure he started off with a faster than average technique to begin with.


My issue was always that in the "ka" of the "ta-ka" ("ta" = tip of tongue on reed; "ka" = point slightly further back on tongue placed on roof of mouth) the "ka" gets misvoiced as you get into the altissimo. My most recent solution may be a bit unconventional but is worth a try. I now tongue both ends of the "ta-ka" on the roof of the mouth ("ta" further forward; "ka" further back). I do this for more rapid double tonguing as well as for higher note double tonguing. So rather than damping the reed vibration directly on the first half the the figure, you just lightly interrupt the air flow for both. At least their is less difference in voicing between "ta" and "ka" this way.


Someone please post link to the amazing Russian player who has a 20 minute tutorial on double tonguing. He is the guy who does that amazing version of Paganini.





.....................Paul Aviles



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 Re: Double Tonguing
Author: ceeslaw 
Date:   2019-03-24 02:20

Ah, thanks for that Rusinek video! I despair of ever tonguing that fast, but it's early for me yet, heh.

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 Re: Double Tonguing
Author: Paul Aviles 
Date:   2019-03-24 04:46

Ok........I'll just do it myself (mock indignation):



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qoInFr4b8kQ



An important element of what Alexey Gorokholinsky speaks of is that there is a difference between what we perceive as the end result and what actually comes across to the listener (how he checks the recording of what he does). The other justification for double tonguing is that violins mark UP BOWS and DOWN BOWS all over their music. If there was no difference for them that would not be necessary. So we are actually used to hearing this combination of weaker and stronger pairs of notes from the very beginning of listening to classical music....it is a natural sonic end result that we've come to accept on a rather primal level. There is nothing wrong with the natural "ta-ka" end result.......in my opinion.




..................Paul Aviles

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 Re: Double Tonguing
Author: fernie121 
Date:   2019-03-24 23:37

Whether you go Dah Gah, or Tah Kah, make sure you use a very forward position of the tongue. If you do the gah or kah part with the back end of your tongue it doesn’t work. And when your tongue touches the reed, make sure you are barely touching the reed and not pushing the reed all the way to the tip of the mouthpiece. You stop the vibrations by placing the tongue on the reed, not closing the tip opening with tongue pressure. Again, if you do this, getting the gah or kah part to speak will be difficult, if not impossible. Make sure the air speed is fast and consistent, and you’ll get it. I also tongue slowly and have really refined my double tonguing as is necessary.

Bb Clarinet: Ridenour G1, Mouthpiece: Vandoren BD5 (Modified), Reed: Legere EC 3 3/4, Ligature: Rovner Versa

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 Re: Double Tonguing
Author: EaubeauHorn 
Date:   2019-03-25 03:01

Um, Paul....as a former pro symphony violinist I have to suggest that marking up and down bows doesn't have to do with the difference in sound between them (weaker and stronger.) It has to do with not running out of bow at an inopportune time and with playing musically. It is also the ease of making a particular type of sound at one end or the other of the bow. With a skilled player you will not be able to tell the difference in sound between an up bow and a down bow (unless s/he wants you to) except possibly at the extremes of the frog and the tip, which would be with special effects. However, in a section, they will mark up and down bows so that the entire section will bow together, after the musical dictates of phrasing have been met.

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 Re: Double Tonguing
Author: Paul Aviles 
Date:   2019-03-25 03:24

I guess I would still then ask why the section needs to bow together at all if there is no audible difference.


Of course this reminds me of a funny Army story. We once had a commanding general who wanted to micromanage the appearance of the band (the trombones stand in front because their slides take up more room). He dictated to us that all the slides should move together for uniformity's sake. I think we actually had four trombones play in unison for a time before we gave up on that suggestion.




...............Paul Aviles



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 Re: Double Tonguing
Author: gwlively 
Date:   2019-03-25 03:24

Another way that uses different syllables is by David Pino in his book, "The Clarinet and Clarinet Playing". The "ta-ka" syllables can be hard to control in the clarion register and above; works well in the chalemeau register.

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 Re: Double Tonguing
Author: Philip Caron 
Date:   2019-03-25 06:16

There's also the lateral tonguing technique, where the tip of the tongue alternates left-to-right and right-to-left, touching the reed in the middle - something like that; I've only seen one brief description. The idea sounds harder to control in terms of, say, length of notes, where I'm wondering how one would vary between legato and staccato at a given speed. However, it suffers no added difficulty in altissimo, and some people demonstrate amazing speed with it, possibly faster than with other multi-tongue techniques.

http://clarinet.org/2017/10/06/articulation-types-for-clarinet-kornel-wolak/

I've briefly tried several versions of multi-tonguing, including lateral, and they feel doable enough, but I'm saving serious work on them for when my slow single-tongue improvement hits a wall.

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 Re: Double Tonguing
Author: Dibbs 
Date:   2019-03-25 16:58

Romanian taragot (tarogato) players do something similar to that lateral tonguing but up and down rather than side to side.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mqmHqZhybGo

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 Re: Double Tonguing
Author: Paul Aviles 
Date:   2019-03-25 18:40

Hey Dibbs,



This is way off topic, but I noticed besides the keyed hole near the top of the bell there are also to other smaller holes (at different levels) closer to the bottom of the back of the bell. Is there an intonation or resonance reason for these?





.................Paul Aviles



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 Re: Double Tonguing
Author: Dibbs 
Date:   2019-03-25 20:55

Paul,

They make the low Bb less "honky". The bore is similar to a soprano sax but the tone holes are smaller. Without those holes the contrast with the other notes would be even more obvious than on a sax.

I don't know why they have multiple holes rather than a single large one, probably just aesthetics.

I don't think they have any significant resonance effects. Someone I know sometimes blocks them up to get a low A. He said it didn't affect anything above low C#.

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 Re: Double Tonguing
Author: Roxann 
Date:   2019-03-25 22:15

WOW! THANK YOU ALL for your suggestions! I've printed them off and will take them to my lesson on Thursday. Keep your fingers crossed that this old dog can learn a new trick!

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 Re: Double Tonguing
Author: Paul Aviles 
Date:   2019-03-25 23:10

Dibbs,


THANKS!



Roxann,


Don't forget to share those video links with your teacher too!




..................Paul Aviles



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 Re: Double Tonguing
Author: Roxann 
Date:   2019-03-26 02:04

Paul...will do:)

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