 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Carl L
Date: 2001-06-23 02:27
An e-bay offering, a Selmer Series 9. Serial #S1596. "Buy it now for $700". Looks right out of the box. Could I have some help on identifying this instrument? Student line, or professional? Worth $700? Thanks for your help!
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Author: bob gardner
Date: 2001-06-23 03:58
I have a Series 10 and it is about 30 years old. if the 9 came before the 10 then it has to be up there in age. i love my 10 and the age is no problem.
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Author: mw
Date: 2001-06-23 04:03
The 9 is every bit a pro horn. It was the successor to the Centered Tone. Many people fail to distinguish between the 9 and the 9*, the latter being Selmer's first entry into the "poly bore" competition, due to the popularity in the 1950's of the (newcomer) Buffet R-13.
Featuring excellent keywork and the BIG Selmer sound, the 9 is a sought after instrument for Jazz & Klezmer .... (and anybody who likes Clarinet sound!)
Best,
mw
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Author: Mike Harrelson
Date: 2001-06-23 04:18
I've had my series 9 since 1964. In those days it was the horn of choice of many professionals.It played great then, it plays great now. Today it tends to be considered a jazz horn because of the big bore big sound.
As to the $700 price, I don't know what a good price would be. If it needs much work, that would seem a little high (return option?). If its a player right out of the box, it could be a good deal, considering the cost of a new pro instrument these days.
Good Luck
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Author: mw
Date: 2001-06-23 04:32
I failed to mention that I know Al very well. Check his feedback which is impeccable. I have bought a YAS-52 & a Buffet Master Model from Al. I also have bought an E-11 from his daughter, who sells for her own account. Al doesn't sell junk --- he'll nail the condition every time in his description. Al's reputation and his word are money in the bank. He has a _GREAT_ inventory, too.--- good stuff seems to gravitate to him & he is an excellent buyer.
The horn in question looks very close to NOS (new, old stock) --- the price is very good.
Best,
mw
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Author: HAT
Date: 2001-06-23 13:47
If you are serious about classical clarinet performance, I would not advise you to buy a series 9. They are almost impossible to play in tune. Jazzers love the big bore sound and response, but in classical music, they really don't work. Sorry.
-HAT
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Author: Carl L
Date: 2001-06-23 15:31
Nope, no classical here...strictly Dixieland and jazz. Thanks for your feedback!
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Author: Anji
Date: 2001-06-23 15:50
Resale on something like this may be limited, but these are solid players.
Cheapo versions abound in the Leblanc line and from Boosey and Hawkes.
I have a few Conn 444 that have a loud character, it would be interesting to compare this with the 9*.
Me, I would buy one of the nice Centered Tone models before sinking bucks into the 9*... the number of clean CTs is dropping every year and the logo makes them unmistakeable.
I think Marky-Mark Weinstein has a clean one for sale at about the same price.
anji
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2001-06-23 16:40
It really does look good and I appreciate the vote of confidence on the seller from mw. But, if you buy it you need to be planning on keeping it because it's pretty hard to get more than $700.00 for one even in excellent cond. It probably is worth every penny of the $700.00. I've heard great things about the 9 series for jazz and American pop music stuff. Give it a try. Let us know.
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Author: mw
Date: 2001-06-24 00:19
Brenda, a Selmer 9 in mint condition might be worth as much as $1500. Everything depends on the Buyer. As a collector& aoccasional seller, I try & buy horns that are "keepers". If they remain with me a long time, I am never _forlorn_ about my investment. However, its always nice to bring a good value to your buyer, to leave a bit on the table. That way, if they choose to pass it on at some point, they stand a better chance of breaking even or even covering the cost of some reeds.
HAT, I couldn't agree more on NOT bringing the Selmer 9 to an orchestra. Some might extend that to a symphonic band as well. (Remember, too, there are folks who can't play in tune with the BEST of horns!)
But, staying to the topic, the Selmer 9 is GREAT for Jazz, Klezmer, or "please me" music. "Please me" is the best music to be played as it pleases _YOU_, the player! I play lots of "please me" music. : )
Anji, Al gets some unbelievable horns in. This particular horn looked great --- very clean --- near mint (if not actually mint). I don't have one that looks as good. I have a couple of 9's that sound great & are excellent in looks. The one Al has could run for Miss America!
When it comes to Selmer I still love a mid-to-late 1980's Selmer 10G. TERRIFIC HORNS! I had one & sold it ... BIG MISTAKE - WOW - WHAT A SOUND!
Best,
mw
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Author: mw
Date: 2001-06-24 05:31
First, I couldn't think of Al's last name, its Gottesman of South Florida. (in the Miami area IMMSMR)
I just read the full description on the horn.
NOTE : The ** above the upper joint number which is disclosed.
It is well known, that one * or Asterisk above the Serial number on the Upper Joint would indicate that the Upper Joint has been replaced. The manufacturer, here Selmer, would remove the key work (posts, keys, springs, rods --- e.g. all of the metal keywork) and place them on a "blank" Upper Joint when the _ORIGINAL UPPER JOINT CRACKED (or failed in some other manner). This is done as the option of the manufacturer when they decide NOT to pin, band or otherwise repair a problem on a clarinet.
It has been discussed before ... 2*'s or Asrterisks .... what does it mean? Was the Upper Joint replaced twice?
Or does 1 * mean replaced at factory when manufactured and 2* means replaced after the warranty period began (with useage). Or does it mean something entirely different.
Intonation maybe affected where a Joint is changed ... this is known. Heck, I have heard that sometimes it IMPROVES the sound! [lol] I'd ask All Gottesman for the right of return if intonation ws affected. Al listed the 2*'s because he doesn't know what it means & is fully disclosing everything about the horn!
Best,
mw
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2001-06-24 13:57
Buffet replaced the upper joint on my son's Bb Festival when it cracked and yes, it was better after it was replaced.
It was also my introduction to Francois Kloc. He did the replacement & matching of the new upper joint to lower - we drove from Detroit to Chicago to have the work done at the (then) Buffet/Boosey & Hawkes center.
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Author: mw
Date: 2001-06-24 16:29
It _ALWAYS_ pleasing to hear that type of a report. We all love our Clarinets and when something happens, we fear the worst --- no one is immune. Francois has a tremendous book of knowledge; it's obvious, too, thate he cares about other people. It is the latter that is the main ingredient for effective customer service.
Best,
mw
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2001-06-24 20:46
Oh, I bought a new/old stock Selmer Series 10 a few months ago and only got $1,100.00 for it. It was mint and beautiful. I spent some money getting new pads and some adjustments. Oh well. Another lesson.
If you like it, buy it with the idea that you're getting it to play and enjoy. Then you'll be ok.
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Author: Ralph
Date: 2001-06-25 00:27
A clarification on the 9*. MW's posting may lead one to believe that the 9* has a polycylindrical bore. This is not the case. The 9* did have a smaller bore than the 9 (.577" vs. ,584"). The bore for the 9* is the samer reversed cone that Selmer has primarily made for a long period of time. The 9* was played by some orchestral musicians during the time it was introduced. The source for my information is the Chief Woodwind Technician for Selmer and Dr. Lee Gibson, who writes a clarinet column for "The Clarinet".
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2001-06-25 13:56
Dr. Gibson also wrote a book I highly recommend called Clarinet Acoustics. He's a professor emeritus of music at the University of North Texas (where my youngest son is right now). He not only writes a column for The Clarinet magazine, but he founded it and has tons of honors.
The book is printed by the Indiana University Press and I bought mine through Barnes and Noble. It's simply Clarinet Acoustics by O. Lee Gibson.
He knows his stuff! I learned a lot by reading the book. He's given a thorough study to the Selmer (and other) clarinet.
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Author: Mike B.
Date: 2001-06-25 15:59
Hi -
I own a Series 9, and it's a great horn. It plays in tune, and I don't understand the comments about not playing the horn in an orchestra. This seems pretty silly. The implication is that clarinet design has improved so much over the last 30+ years as to make modern horns significantly better. I seriously question this.
As for the price, $700.00 is too expensive, $500 is more appropriate. $1500.00 would be insane. Series 9 horns represent fantastic value for the money, IMHO. Regards,
Mike B.
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Author: mw
Date: 2001-06-25 16:52
Below is a very informative post from Clark Fobes, which I found in the Klarinet Archives. mw
---------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 28 Aug 1995 13:58:05 -0700
From: CLARK FOBES <reedman@IX.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Intonation
The following comments are presented as thoughts I have regarding intonation and performance that have developed over 20 years of performing and working on the acoustical problems of the clarinet. As with all aspects in learning, some of my ideas have changed over the years and may continue to change. Intonation is an area that requires a good musician to keep his mind and ears open.
TUNING: or Not-so-perfect pitch
The subject of intonation is always an interesting one. Although we attempt to test ourselves against a rather arbitrary standard (A=440 in tempered scale) we realistically perform by a method that consists of some tempered tuning and some "just" intonation. "Just" intonation is the development of the scale based on the organic generation of tones as they occur in the natural harmonic series.
A good example of the problems associated with playing "by ear" or using "just" intonation is the interval of the major third. In the overtones series the major third is the the fifth partial and to sound "consonant" or without beats it must deviate 16 cents flat from the evenly tempered scale. Now, remember your first year harmony. In the key of C major, for example, B natural is the leading tone and
melodically wants to be heard "sharp". But when we play the dominant chord in C major (G-B-D), B natural wants to be heard as the major third and to be consonant must be played 16 cents flat. This contradiction in where to place the B is part of the instability of the dominant chord that makes us want to resolve it to tonic.
Another short example of how we perceive pitch can be demostrated by playing octaves. Because octaves are an easily heard ratio of 1:2 the sound of perfect octaves between two players is not as subjective as that of the major third or minor third. However, play or sing an ascending octave without looking at your tuner. Play it several times so that you get the sound well in your ear. Now play it the same way and look at your tuning device. Invariably the rising octave will be
sharp! The short lesson is that sometimes we must listen vertically (harmonically) and other times we listen or play horizontally (melodically).
I consider the use of just intonation in the ensemble to be absolutely paramount to tempered tuning, but the extent to which one alters pitch can be an issue of taste.
This is a very simplistic overview to a very complicated issue. When we throw in the inherent acoustical problems generated by our instuments we can begin to see that intonation in ensemble is a very difficult and often subjective area.
THE INSTRUMENT
The clarinet inherently has an aberrant scale and choices are made by manufacturers in how to deal with these idiosyncracies and preserve a good sound. Adam Pease brought up some very pertinent points about the tuning of his Selmer series 9 clarinet. The problems he expressed are exactly those that Selmer chose in the design of the Selmer 9. The Selmer philosophy up to that point was to use a large diameter tone hole with no undercutting.(And, I believe, an almost purely cylindrical bore). The 9* was a move toward reducing tone hole diameters in some areas and introducing undercutting. The Selmer series 10 was a radical move toward a polycylindrical design. The 10G was the result of work
with Anthony Gigliotti and a move even closer to the Buffet design.
The larger tone holes do produce a more robust tone, but the twelfths are "short" and tend to be very sharp in the fundamental when playing pianissimo. Adding keys to bring down pitch in the chalumeau is a good solution and one that I use some times when playing my Selmer bass clarinet. Another option is to pull the center tenon about .5mm.
The great innovation by Robert Carre (Buffet) in the 1950's was the use of a polycylindrical bore design and smaller, but undercut tone holes. The reduction of the bore size in the lower 2/3 of the upper joint greatly improves the twelfths in that area.
The recent push by Leblanc to compete with Buffet as a major force in the clarinet market has produced some very fine results, and as I have stated before, I think that competion in the market place is very healthy. We the consumers will only gain.
Another innovation for clarinetists, attributed to Hans Moennig, was the introduction of the reverse cone taper in the barrel joint. My experimenting in this area and the subsequent use of a reverse cone in my barrels is that not only is the intonation positively enhanced, but there is an increase in tonal center. It also interesting how varying the taper slightly can create fairly significant changes in the
resonance of the "bell" and "throat" tones in particular.
The next step in acoustical adjustment that has been almost ignored by player/makers is the bell. I am working on a new design for bells right now that has some very interesting qualities. Most of us are used to exploring barrels for a better sound, but the availability of a variety of bells to try is usually non existent. Try just switching bells with friends and you may be amazed at the differences from bell to bell.
QUALITY OF SOUND
I was very grateful to read David Bourque's comment that tone is inextricably tied to intonation. As a maker of mouthpieces I am very sensitive to the issue of tone and intonation. Players come to me with a wide variety of needs, but paramount is the desire to play in tune. If a mouthpiece has a beautiful sound, but one has to do any manipulation (embipulation? oralipulation?) of the embouchure for reasons of intonation the sound is compromised.
Let's disregard any talk about dark, light, bright or puce sounds and concentrate on the concept of projection. I have always insisted that projection of sound is a function of QUALITY not QUANTITY. Have you ever noticed that when your ear hears what you may qualify as a beautiful tone rising above the ensemble you have the sensation that it is "riding" on top of the ensemble? I believe this has everything to do with how the presence of overtones in that given sound are consonant with the prevailing harmonic context. This is very dramatically
demonstrated by good vocalists, particularly operatic singers. I just performed a concert with some very fine young singers in the San Francisco Opera's Merola program. During reheasal I was sitting in front of a baritone whose sound was so filled with overtones that I had to cover my ears. Later, in Davies Hall, he was in front of the orchestra singing towards us and I heard only a beautifully homogenous
and rich sound that carried to the rafters!
This theory of resonance and quality of sound was discussed by Jim Pyne at the clarinet conference this summer. Very simply he states that resonance is reliant upon the abundant presence of overtones in the area of the series that roughly describe a dominant 7th chord.
A well centered sound has a balance of all partials (including the fundamental) and enough presence of overtones that not only projects, but allows a sensitive ear to hear the harmonics lining up in the ensemble. Have you ever played a mouthpiece that just did not seem to play anything in tune? A mouthpiece like this may acoustically be well within parameters on your tuner, but playing in ensemble is a
nightmare. Usually the problem is that the mouthpiece is not "centering", that is, there are insufficient overtones to allow the ear to discern pitch in the ensemble.I have also found the reverse to be true. Occasionally a mouthpiece is all "surface" (too many overtones).
I have had players describe this is not being able to get "into" the sound.
The problem in achieving a balanced clarinet tone for a mouthpiece maker is that acoustically the clarinet is a closed pipe system and tends to sound "hollow". This is due to two factors. One is that in the regime of oscillation of a closed pipe system the fundamental is the most present.( This is why we can out do any woodwind in a test of "pianissimo" playing. As energy is removed from the system only the most prominent partial remains. Conical bore instruments like the
saxophone and oboe have their 2nd partial or octave as their most present partial and want to jump to the octave when playing pianissimaoin their fundamental register). The second reason that closed pipe instruments sound hollow is the relative lack of even harmonics in the sound. (They do exist, but very weakly)
The conundrum, then, in clarinet mouthpiece design is to retain sufficient fundamental (core) in the sound while bringing out a well balanced set of overtones.(And to make it play in tune, take a wide variety of reeds, reduce pratice time, increase your life expectancy, and make you the most popular person on your block). But, that's my problem and the work continues.
Clark W Fobes
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2001-06-25 17:08
Wow, that was long. But, the part about the Series 9 and the improvement of the 9* was very helpful. I've been thinking of bidding on that clarinet. I just sold my backup clarinet, so I might. They're great for big band and jazz. But, if I were a serious orchestral student, I'd go with Leblanc Opus or Buffet R-13 or Buffet Prestige or Festival---mainly because that's the sound the conductors are looking for and the other players will have.
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Author: Mike B.
Date: 2001-06-25 19:11
Hi Again -
The Series 9 I have doesn't exhibit sharp twelfths (not to say there aren't other tuning imperfections). I'm not trying to say that the tuning of the Series 9 is perfect. However, ALL clarinets exhibit imperfections in tuning including the Buffet R13. Quite a number of exceptional players used and recorded on these pre-R13 instruments, and they sounded just fine, and played in tune. Intonation issues aren't black or white, but are always with us. IMHO, exchanging marginally improved intonation at the expense of a degradation in tone color and flexibility is a very poor choice.
If you are a professional musician, and paying the bills depends on your abilities, you should get the best possible equipment regardless of price. If you're playing in college, in a community orchestra, in a musical show, etc., maybe paying $400-$500 for a clarinet that fits the bill is a more sensible choice. Right now, you can buy an extremely good instrument for peanuts. Or, in other words, value for money IS something that should be considered. Regards,
Mike B.
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2001-06-25 19:48
Mike is certainly right about intonation problems with the R-13. They're notorious for them. But, you can help that by having them Brannenized.
Whatever your instrument you'll have to make adjustments for intonation.
Bottom line--the Selmer 9 looks like a good buy. I'm going to pass because I need to pay for my new Buffet Festival before buying anything else. So, Carl---go for it! If you don't like it you can always resell it.
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Author: B.F.
Date: 2001-06-25 20:47
I find HAT's remark compelling (about about not playing a Series 9 in an orchestra setting). I have a pristine Series 9, and I like it but find it plays BRIGHTER than any instrument I've ever had in my hands. Flexible, pretty, nice, but very bright, even more than my Penzel-Mueller "Brilliante." --Bill.
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Author: Fred
Date: 2001-06-25 23:21
Could anyone give a rundown of how the Series 9 compares to the Centered Tone, the Balanced Tone, and the other pre-Series 9 Selmer Paris horns?
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Author: HAT
Date: 2001-06-25 23:22
I wouldn't compare the intonation of a Series 9 to an R-13. Besides that, the scale of the R-13 depends heavily on its date of manufacture, as Buffet has made many changes to it without changing its model designation.
There is a reason that the R-13 has been and continues to be the instrument of first choice in orchestral playing, although there are far more good options today than there were 20 years ago.
Simply put, the series 9 is an extremely problematic horn in terms of intonation. That is why it was never popular with orchestral players, for whom intonation is the #1 factor in choosing equipment.
Yes, Benny Goodman made some classical recordings on (both bflat and a) the series 9, But, those recordings are horrendously out of tune.
Jazz players have slightly different priorities and many of them like these old horns.
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Author: Mike B.
Date: 2001-06-26 14:50
Sigh -
1. A good Series 9 is not "an extremely problematic horn in terms of intonation". It's simply a clarinet with intonation tendencies, much like any other.
2. A good R13 is more in tune than a Series 9, which is why professional orchestral players switched to the R13 after its debut (not arguing this point).
3. A professional musician should get the best horn possible (not arguing this point either).
4. The vast majority of us are not professional orchestral players.
5. There is a $1000.00 difference in the street price of these two horns. For the average, non-professional player, this is important.
Simply put, if you aren't making your rent by playing, you shouldn't feel compelled to buy a $1400.00 + clarinet. Older horns such as the Series 9 or 10 (or their Leblanc or Buffet equivalents) are fine, and can be played in tune. Regards,
Mike B.
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2001-06-26 16:40
Whatever you buy you'll have to practice it a lot to get used to its "quirks." And, they all have them to some degree or another.
I noticed mw has a nice Centered Tone Selmer on eBay. I know he can't really promote himself here, but it's something you might look at if intonation is a major concern. Benny Goodman played the Centered Tone a lot with better results as far as tuning goes. I don't know what the reserve is, but it looks good to me and I'll bet mw would be happy to back up the sale (not to speak for him, but assuming from reading his stuff).
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Author: mw
Date: 2001-06-26 17:20
Mike B. said :
"Simply put, if you aren't making your rent by playing, you shouldn't feel compelled to buy a $1400.00 + clarinet."
-----------------------------------
I think its important that everyone live within their means. After, setting a personal budget you need to move on to a concept that I call the "opportunity cost of your money". This is where you figure out what your money could actually do for you --- what you receive in exchange for it.
Realize that :
Some people believe you ought to spend as little as will get you by.
Some people thing you should spend as much as you can & buy the best item that affords you.
Some people think you should spend as much as it will take to buy the best item available.
Some people think you should spend as much as it will take to buy the best item that is not new.
"Some people think" --- its endless --- & thats my point. Think for yourself & do whatever _makes sense_ to you & that _pleases_ you.
I am an amateur who can afford any clarinet on the market today. (we are fortunate as clarinetists because our instruments are DIRT cheap!) I own a Buffet R-13 which is my personal clarinet --- I play it every day. I never felt compelled, required or overwhelmed in a way --- so that I had to buy it. I tried every clarinet new & used that I could get my hands on & then some. I didn't care who liked or used what --- I was after something that would PLEASE ME!
Best,
mw
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2001-06-26 20:24
Ok, this discussion can have a happy conclusion---unless you're Carl and you really wanted to buy the Selmer 9. I bought it. So, I'll let you know how it turns out. We'll do a whole thing about it again.
mw, I really took your word about Al. The clarinet certainly looks good. I have a friend who has been wanting one but wouldn't shell out the bucks for one. He's a jazz man and is still playing on his Selmer Signet he got in high school (graduated hs class of '69). It's falling apart. I sit next to him in community band and have been on a campaign for a couple of years now to get him interested in a new clarinet. Nothing caught his eye until the Selmer. Of course, he probably won't pull the money out of his wallet for it--although he certainly has it.
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Author: HAT
Date: 2001-06-26 20:28
A good used R-13 will not set you back all that much more than a Series 9. In fact, it might even be cheaper, since Series 9s are often bid to relatively high prices.
Again, it depends on what you are doing with the horn. If you need to play in tune at wide dynamic levels, the series 9 won't cut it. As Clark Fobes points out, the spread between soft dynamics and loud ones is exaggerated on the Series 9, particularly in the low register. Jazz and Klezmer make less use of ppp in the low register than orchestral or chamber music playing.
I stand by my previous posts.
-HAT
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Author: mw
Date: 2001-06-26 21:03
Brenda, you shouldn't have any problems. If you are unhappy, I'd make book at 10 to 1 that Al will make it right, just as you would.
People are funny. For some, its a VERY small (me) world. I sold a box of Vandoren reeds some time back. I sent the reeds via USPS Priority Mail w/delivery confirmation (the buyer paid $3.00 flat for shipping, so we didn't make any money off shipping, we never do).
A week passed and the buyer e-mailed me that their reeds had not (yet) arrived. They wanted their shipping money back "as compensation for the delay" in arrival of their reeds!
We sent them back 100% of their money. END OF TAPE.
Big world, small transaction --- not worth fighting. Moral: If you are gonna rob a bank, make it a BIG BANK! (lol)
Best,
mw
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Author: Mike B.
Date: 2001-06-26 22:13
To each his own. If you really believe that you can purchase an R13 for near the purchase price of a Series 9 I have some swamp land in Florida you might be interested in . . .
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Author: mw
Date: 2001-06-27 01:26
I _have_ bought a number of R-13's for between $300 to $600. They have all needed an overhaul at those prices. However, most any Selmer Series 9 you buy in that price neighborhood will be in about the same condition, too. No offense intended with my response -- you are certainly entitiled to your opinion.
Best,
mw
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2001-06-28 22:34
I decided a little while ago that I would like to have a Selmer big bore instrument for jazz (though I don't play it alot) and pit orchestra gigs where I need a big sound (which are becoming more common) so I started following Series 9's on eBay with the intention of buying one. I got one a few weeks ago from around 1970-71. (I don't think there was a picture which may have kept the price down.)
Here is my experience. Perhaps we can compare notes, Brenda.
Price on eBay relative to R13's:
First, from what I have seen, on average, Series 9's do sell for less than comparable (i.e., early "post-Caree") R13's. Right now, it seems to me that clarinets in general haven't been doing very well on eBay. In particular, Series 9's (unless they are mint) have been selling in the $300 - $450 range for the most part. (One sold for a little less than that but did not have the original bell.) One sold for $600 (Brenda's) but that one apparently is apparently mint. I paid $350 for mine and it was in pretty good condition when it arrived. I had to replace one tenon cork and two pads. From recent sales on eBay, it looks to me as though the expectation for a 1955 - 1970 R13 is in the $600 - $800 range. Do they occasionally sell for less? Sure. mw has found a few and even I got a very nice one. Do they often sell for less? I don't think so.
Intonation:
Based on my sample of one, I am inclined to agree with HAT on this one with a qualification. I took my Series 9 to a community summer band to try it out (and to see how it would tune with my partner's Selmer Signet). During a lull in the trumpet parts when I could actually hear myself ;^) I found that I had some notes that sounded noticeably out of tune to me. (I had not noticed this at home by the way.) My qualification is this. I think HAT's comments are probably right on target for an instrument being played by a "neutral" player (i.e., one who has not yet learned how to voice the instrument) right out of the box. I also believe (statement of faith coming up, here), however, that someone who plays an instrument regularly over a long period of time "learns" how to play it in tune. My first wooden clarinet was a Malerne that I played for about 10 years. I never had a problem with intonation with the instrument during those years. I put it away (except for occasional backup use) when I bought the R13 I've played ever since. A couple of years ago, my daughter took up the clarinet and I started her on the Malerne. Her teacher was very much impressed how well the instrument was in tune with itself. As luck would have it, however, I needed to use it for a week or so because of a minor problem with my R13. I could not get it to play even close to in tune. I don't think it was the instrument. I think it was that I had forgotten how to voice it. I once heard James Galway say that he has to make some little adjustment in embouchure for every note on the scale to play it in tune. I think that clarinetists (at least those who have some semblance of an ear) learn to make minor adjustments to make their instruments in tune. This would explain why Mike B. finds that his instrument plays perfectly in tune despits the intonation tendencies HAT and others have noted. (Or maybe he just was lucky in the horn he got ;^). )
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Author: Mike B.
Date: 2001-06-28 23:05
Hi -
I never said it played perfectly in tune, just that Series 9s aren't grossly out of tune, as was indicated by HAT's posting. I personally think ALL clarinets are out of tune, and one of the things we do is learn to deal with this as a player. Heck, I'm even willing to admit that the R13 is more in tune than the Series 9.
I do believe, however, that the Series 9 sounds more interesting than the R13 (more vibrant for want of a better term). A player can always deal with a certain amount of intonation variances, but tone color is harder to influence. I feel that as a musician we should try to achieve a distinct and individual voice. However, I also understand the need to blend in an orchestral setting.
So, if you earn your keep as an orchestral player, you should probably play an R13. If you play for yourself, then a Series 9 (or, for God's sake anything different), might be a valid option. Regards,
Mike B.
P.S. This might also explain why these older Selmer horns are valued by the jazz musician, as opposed to the untrue and dismissive assumtion that jazz musicians can play out of tune . . . NOT!
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Author: mw
Date: 2001-06-29 17:33
Jack Kissinger said:
" ....it seems to me that clarinets in general haven't been doing very well on eBay."
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eBay is a venue, where all instruments are generally priced lower than retail or local markets, due to the auction atmosphere. For every clarinet you see sold another has been shown on eBay and sold privately. High prices are paid for clarinets with unknown reserve (to auction bidders) and that are ultimately sold privately to someone chasing the auction seller down. Happens all the time.
We are also in a recession in the U.S. since the 1st of year; if not a clinical recession (with true negative,decreasing rate) in terms of industrial output-GNP & **consumer sentiment** & spending than we are so close that we needn't split hairs debating whether it truly is or not. The selling season on eBay is September to January-February -- when the "fruit" is in season. We have the same supply the rest of the year with diminished demand.
Sellers buy instruments (late spring & summer) with an eye to significantly higher prices when school starts back. The demand for professional horns follows the same trend line, since intermediate horns are in greater demand --- there is less choice & the high prices bid on pro horns is an "easy sell" due to the fact that intermediate horns are sold at a premium price (ridiculous prices paid for Buffet E-11 & Yamaha YCL-34 --- approaching the $450-500 level in September-October when new Buffet vE-11's are available at $575 w/full 1 yr warranty, care kits & free shipping atg times --- go figure!)
A full overhaul by a reputable repair tech on a pro horn will generally cost somewhere between $200-300. SO, you have to realize, for the most part, what you are buying when you get a $300-400 horn. Its all relative and the purchaser may spend that much money again in restoring. Sure there are some people who won't spend a dime if it doesn't absolutely need it. My experience shows that those who buy vintage horns like to RESTORE the clarinet to optimum condition.
(that's the spice of life though --m everyone got a derriere & an an opinion).
IMO, 1955-1970 R-13's generally sell for less than $600. eBay is but one venue. How many people have access to eBay & possess the knowledge or desire to list their own auction? (Answer: not enough). I would say that on average that R-13's of that vintage needing service (read: overhaul) sell around $400. I have 8-10 I can show in the last year. Local music stores will pay FAR LESS!
As i state, eBay is but one venue. On the other hand, the time to buy is when its a buyer's market.
Best,
mw
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