 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Sharpi
Date: 2019-03-15 04:24
Hello
I have made some big mistakes on this journey of my son learning the clarinet. I currently have 3 different models and am looking for advice on how I should proceed. The first is a cheap plastic model, a pad fell off. Because it’s cheap plastic, I don’t know how much they will charge me to fix one pad. The second clarinet , I picked up at a yard sale to experiment with. Likely a B12 Evette model made in Germany. I was able to repad this plastic Evette fairly successfully, I am a metalsmith, but not a player of the instrument. One pad on the bottom is giving me trouble with air leakage, may be that it needs a new spring? Not very bouncy this key. This clarinet is not like my other two in that the barrel does not sit flush against the top joint. It is not a cork issue, it just doesn not go all the way down, leaving approx. 1/4 inch gap between the bottom of the barrel and the top joint. Is this normal? The third is a 1930’s Evette & Schaeffer model. We are having trouble with shrinkage. Currently it is doing well as long as I keep it in my home made humidifier box. If I leave it out more than a day, the bell ring becomes loose. I’m hoping this changes with the weather? How should I proceed with the plastic clarinets? Will a shop fix just one pad without charging a fortune? Or does anyone have recommendations for the ES clarinet? My son needs a working clarinet and I’m not sure which I should take to the shop? The ES was already serviced and came back loose anyway even though they hydrated it. What is going on with the B12 barrel?
Post Edited (2019-03-15 04:26)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2019-03-15 05:53
Having a tech replace one (or several depending on what others look like) is not that much (just cost of pad and small amount of time).
You did not mention what kind of plastic horn that first one is, Bundy, Vito? Those are pretty decent for response and intonation. I have run into a lot of bad B12s so I have a prejudice about those. The oldest clarinet may have many other issues (ultimate concert pitch just one of many).
If the first plastic one is a Vito in decent shape, that may be your best bet.
..............Paul Aviles
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Author: Ursa
Date: 2019-03-15 06:18
My observations:
1. If you don't play the clarinet, please don't attempt to service the instrument yourself--period.
2. Repair shops will be happy to replace just one pad if that's all the work required to put a clarinet back into service. It won't cost you much.
3. It isn't normal for a barrel to have a 1/4-inch gap between the tenon and socket ends. Try the barrels from the other two clarinets and see if they fit on the B12. If they do, somebody swapped out the B12's correct barrel with one that's incorrect for the instrument.
4. You are putting the wooden components of the E&S under an absolutely unacceptable level of stress by alternately storing the clarinet inside and outside of a humidifier box. You are very fortunate indeed that the only thing that has gone wrong thus far is a loose bell ring. Leave the clarinet where it is now, and do not put the clarinet back into service until you have consulted with a qualified repair technician as to how to properly acclimate the instrument.
5. With point 4 in mind, your best course of action is to get either of the two plastic instruments serviced and back into service. There's a chance that the wooden instrument won't be stable enough to use safely and reliably for several weeks after action is taken to correct what you've done to it.
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Author: m1964
Date: 2019-03-15 07:05
The lose ring can be easily fixed:
1. Remove the lose ring.
2. Place a thin piece of plastic (cut a square piece from plastic bag you place your vegetables in) on top of the barrel.
3. Place the ring on top of the plastic and press it down-make sure that the the ring is not upside down otherwise it may not fit flash with the edge of the barrel.
4. When the ring is about 3/4 way down, stop and cut excess plastic on both sides of the ring using a razor blade or box cutter.
5. Press down more to push the ring all the way.
You may need some tapping over the edges of the ring to sit it down properly- a rubber handle of a screwdriver will do while slowly turning the barrel.
Good luck, there are youtube videos on this repair too.
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Author: Sharpi
Date: 2019-03-15 07:58
Thank you for your response. The humidifier box was a recommendation from the shop I dropped it off for service after the trouble started. It was playing beautifully until January. I do not play, but my son can, fairly well. He needed something to use. The box was simply a plastic container with a small tray of water. I do hope I haven’t damaged it, it’s only the bell ring that loosens when left out, and it only was left out one time before noticing. I will take it back to the guy who serviced it the first time. The guy who told me to make the humidifier was a different shop than I normally use. He’s been using the cheap plastic one in school since January.
The B12 was always just an experiment for me to see if it was something I could fix. I was fairly happy with getting as far as I did. It was in sad shape when I got it. I took it apart repadded it, and reassembled it, and I was very close, with the exception of this one key. The other keys are air tight, I checked with a light and the paper method. It was a project, the reason this is even considered at this time is because he needs an instrument.
The first instrument is a cheap plastic. Brand name Medini. It was what I purchased before I knew my son would commit. It’s the reason I don’t want to spend money on it, but it was decent, so if that’s my best option, so be it.
I did try the other barrels and they all fit the same way. Just shy of full connection to the upper joint. I don’t see the cork once it’s fitted, only ABS resin. Its a tight fit, and it will play, but I know something is wrong here.
Thank you all for your responses. I have gotten quite the education over the years .
Post Edited (2019-03-15 08:45)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2019-03-15 14:23
Sorry to say that the Mendini will "always be broken" according to a student who had a wooden one for about a year. It has been since replaced with a Yamaha student model.
I would hasten to say that though one might try to save funding on a pursuit that may not pan out, there are minimums involved that are necessary for a successful role out. My thought would be that you re-address the horn with something along the lines of a used Vito for about $400 US dollars. Many music stores have old ones that are really great horns (plastic but well built and feature decent tuning....two things the Mendini cannot offer).
A decent teacher at a music store, or school is also a must for just these reasons. There are just as many pitfalls in the learning process that are not fully spelled out in the first pages of your standard Rubank Beginner Band method.
Finally, though less expensive reeds seem more of a savings, using Vandoren reeds from the outset will put the student in a much better place when it comes to getting a legitimate sound and experience out of the whole thing (have about four reeds to use in rotation at any given time).
Playing a musical instrument is an investment. The better horn of course can be sold down the road close to what you paid for it (and that goes even more for intermediate and professional horns).
.........Good luck!
.....................Paul Aviles
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Author: Sharpi
Date: 2019-03-15 15:51
Thanks Mr. Aviles
So, the Medini is out, And the B12. The E&S is a beautiful piece, the tone sounds so lovely. He had been playing this one for awhile. So you don’t recommend this one until it’s been looked at by the other shop? I didn’t use them originally because they send the instrument out to be serviced which will take awhile. The temps are milder now that’s spring is just around the corner. And though the other shop hydrated it, that bell ring was loose when they returned it. Could I have just been over thinking it because of its age to worry? It played well, when I brought it home. I don’t want to mess with that one myself since it is an expensive horn. I only did what they told me to do.
He was blessed with a very good teacher in school, or he has a knack for the instrument, I’m not sure which or maybe both. It’s been a few years now, and I am impressed with his progress.
I’ll take the E&S back for service and see about a rent to own plastic model as a backup. I would hate to sell it, but I may have to, which will not make my kid happy. He’s quite attached to it. Hopefully it hasn’t been compromised. Thanks for your help.
As for the Medini, I guess a new lamp project is next.
I’ll ask them about this barrel on the B12 project at the shop. As a metalsmith I’m used to this kind of work, my hope was to learn how to repair it so I could teach my son. The top joint definitely plays, I switched it out with the other clarinets to test it. The lower joint, the one pad only has a small amount of leakage and no matter what I do, I just can’t get that pad to fit right. I’ll try another pad and a new spring.
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Author: Katrina
Date: 2019-03-15 18:20
B12's are just fine. Someone probably switched the barrel out, as mentioned above. Having the barrel not completely seat onto the upper joint is only a problem if the clarinet then plays out of tune.
As far as the lower joint pad...I'd recommend taking that to a repair tech. There are other reasons beside a spring or a misshapen pad that it might be leaking.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2019-03-15 18:35
I have to admit I am not very familiar with really old horns. The third clarinet may be ok as long as it is a modern keyed Boehm system horn, and tunes to A=440Hz (that's the written middle staff line B).
The leaky pad issue should be simple for any experienced tech, and it could be may different issues to include and uneven tone hole surface that may need a reshaping.
The very first thing for a student to learn is how to remove rods and pivots so that regular oiling can be done every month or so.
But probably the most important basic skill is to be able to perform both negative and positive pressure tests to truly measure what sort of leaking you have. You take the bottom joint and cover the three open tone holes with your right hand as if playing it. You also depress the lowest pinky key to close off the bottom pads. Then take your left hand and seal up the bottom. Place your mouth over the top and blow for a positive pressure test. This is really only gives you a rough idea how things are going and at some point the "Ab/Eb" pad will blow open regardless of how great everything is. The important test in my opinion is the negative pressure test where you suck the air out of that section. It should hold the air fairly well (kinda as if you did this on a Coke bottle) for at least two or three seconds......more for much better seals.
So I wonder if you could provide an image of the third horn so that even those of us familiar with the model can better see what YOU have.
Finally, since your son has a teacher, what was his input on all of this?
..................Paul Aviles
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Author: Sharpi
Date: 2019-03-15 20:24
Hi Mr Aviles,
I don’t think the teacher showed him how to take it all apart. I stake back what I said about him being an excellent teacher. I credited him based on with how well my son was doing with the instrument, as I said he plays it well. I told the teacher I was sending in the Evette & Schaeffer, he doesn’t know about my “project” and was probably happy to see the Medini go if I had to guess.
Thank you for the testing advice, I will give that a go with my project piece.
I’ve attached pictures of the E&S. Everything seems nice and tight except that Bell Ring again, though not as bad as before. I took it out of the chamber last night and placed it in its case with a damp sponge in a pill bottle. Ring is a little loose, not as bad as the last time it was left out of the box. Serial B576
Thanks
S-
PS the keys are dirty because I’ve already started polished them once, before I realized it wasn’t ready.
Post Edited (2019-03-16 03:11)
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Author: KenJarczyk
Date: 2019-03-15 20:32
Thanks for reaching out for help.
You say you’re a metallurgist. When you started showing interest in this field, did your parents support your decision by giving you a piece of aluminum foil, and call it a day?
Maybe I’m growing into an old curmudgeon, but my initial advice would be to dispose of all three of the instruments you currently have. There is a whole lot of garbage flooding the market these days, and you already own two of them, plus you have an old soldier yearning to become a table-lamp.
Years back, the market was less confusing. In 1960 my mother arranged through the school band director (I was five years old) for a new instrument. I received a new Bundy. Nothing world-shaking, but a solid, in-tune, well built Bundy. She arranged weekly lessons, and both my parents kept in communication with my band director, to address any needs. I think that new Bundy cost my folks $80. That would probably be close to $650 today. That would put you in reach of a great Vito, or very good Yamaha student model instrument.
Important, as well, are the accessories, reeds & mouthpieces. Here, a private teacher is critical, or you could be on a stormy sea in a dinghy with no oars. I know how I aim my students, but each has an individual pathway.
Also important is to become great friends with a trustworthy instrument tech. Easy to find - contact any exerienced woodwind player in your area, of adult age, and ask them!
I’m glad, once again, that you have reached out for help.
Ken Jarczyk
Woodwinds Specialist
Eb, C, Bb, A & Bass Clarinets
Soprano, Alto, Tenor & Baritone Saxophones
Flute, Alto Flute, Piccolo
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Author: Sharpi
Date: 2019-03-15 20:53
Thanks for your advice Mr Jarczyk on private lessons. I had considered it but waited until his training for black belt was over. Now that it is finished and that goal has been achieved, I will look into private lessons.
I’m not quite ready to let go of the “old soldier” because it still plays nicely. There is definitely an ease that this clarinet has, that the cheap plastic one does not. The tone is richer (of course) and his playing is better.
I did switch him to a 3 reed and that also improved things on both instruments.
The original tech told me it was a great horn in great shape. I have to say as a metalsmith, I am not a fan of the nickel keys, a lot of work for such little shine.
I enjoyed playing with the B12. I found it very interesting, and really just want to finish what I started. It had pad rot when I picked it up for cheap, so there is no real loss there. It’s a German made Evette Shrieber , not exactly a B12 but for the sake of explaining the story, I called it a B12. If I’m not mistaken (which I very well could be) its the equivalent of a B12. As a Metalsmith I was given copper to use before I moved up to precious metals. Copper didn’t cost a few hundred dollars.
As I stated earlier. I’ve made a lot of mistakes. I got the E&S thinking it was a good horn. When all is said and done, I realize I could have gotten a really good one from the start had I only asked before said mistakes. I have no choice but to move forward with what I have and possibly rent to own a new plastic model.
Post Edited (2019-03-15 21:01)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2019-03-15 21:29
The Evette Schaeffer "looks" decent. The loose bell ring is probably not much of an issue unless it vibrates during play causing a buzzing on various notes. This particular ring is pressed on during initial construction and there is no way to remove it to apply a shim (the poster above probably was thinking of the ring at the top of the bell). You can easily shove some make shift shims in the space I see at the top part of the ring. Snapping toothpicks so that you have some flat, thin splinters to use as shims should do the trick.
Honestly you should be able to get this one going for a $150 repad and adjustment from a decent tech. I strongly recommend seeking out someone who does this ALL THE TIME. There is no shame in it, it is relatively cheap, and you'll be assured of a working clarinet.
What is your general geographic location? If anywhere near Nashville, Chicago, Toronto, Raleigh NC, or Seattle, there are some top people who do clarinet repair.
.................Paul Aviles
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Author: Sharpi
Date: 2019-03-15 22:11
Thanks for all your help. I just got back from the shop and they said the E&S is fine. They said the same thing about not worrying about the bell ring unless it starts to buzz. This clarinet was repadded a year ago. I am happy to have at least one working horn (especially this one) at this time. I will try your shin method. All other rings and wood is fine and it’s in good working order.
I dropped off the Schreiber Evette and they will look at it and see what’s what. The guy said the barrel fit was definitely odd and he was going to check with another tech on that issue. He said the cheap Medini wasn’t a “bad” horn, but that I should see if the Schreiber Evette could be made to work over fixing the Medini.
Sadly they were out of Vandoren #3 reeds.
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Author: m1964
Date: 2019-03-16 06:50
Paul Aviles wrote:
"The Evette Schaeffer "looks" decent. The loose bell ring is probably not much of an issue unless it vibrates during play causing a buzzing on various notes. This particular ring is pressed on during initial construction and there is no way to remove it to apply a shim (the poster above probably was thinking of the ring at the top of the bell). You can easily shove some make shift shims in the space I see at the top part of the ring. Snapping toothpicks so that you have some flat, thin splinters to use as shims should do the trick.
Honestly you should be able to get this one going for a $150 repad and adjustment from a decent tech. I strongly recommend seeking out someone who does this ALL THE TIME. There is no shame in it, it is relatively cheap, and you'll be assured of a working clarinet."
Paul,
Yes, I misunderstood which ring was lose.
Regarding the repad and adjustment for about $150: in New York no one wanted to touch my R13 for less than $600. The clarinet was/is in good shape- no cracks, decent tone holes, no wobbly keys.
I also contacted a very reputable tech in NJ and asked if he would do repad only - he replied that the only way he works is to do a complete overhaul for $700.
It was my first "expensive" clarinet so I was afraid to do the repad myself. And I had experience doing some basic repairs in the past including soldering cracked keys.
To the OP: I perfectly understand you being afraid not to be able to repair the E&S properly esp. that you do not play .
IMHO, you did better than an average parent could do.
I also think that E&S probably can be repaired but, of course, the pictures do not show lose posts or wobbly keys so it being probably 50-60 y. old may make repair cost more than the instrument. If there are lose posts or wobbly keys that needs to be fixed otherwise repad may not help. The best clarinet would not play well if it leaks air (and would be difficult to play too).
My 2p,
Good luck
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Author: Sharpi
Date: 2019-03-16 08:11
Thanks M1964 I appreciate your response and your kind words. I apologize that I made this very confusing, I panicked. There are 3 clarinets I’m speaking of here.
30’s Evette & Schaeffer
60’s (ish) German made Evette (I called it a B12 but it’s a Schreiber made Evette) at least I think it’s Schreiber made based on the serial number.
Plastic Medini- this was the “show me you’re serious” purchase. Then I moved on and got the wooden E&S when he proved it was worth a substantial instrument.
The E&S is the clarinet that had the loose bell ring. It was repadded by someone else last summer. This January it shrunk and I was told to make a home made humidifier box after picking it up from the same treatment. When I picked it up the bell ring (bottom) was still loose. I did as instructed. I had it looked at today, and they said it was fine, just shim the bell.
The German Evette is the clarinet that I picked up as a project. I’m fairly impressed that I got as far as I did. I dropped that off today to be looked at by a pro. Curious to see how I did. My pad work was clean, and I know the top joint was air tight. On the bottom, one of the pads caused me trouble and the key isn’t very springy based on how the same key feels in the other clarinets.
The vexing thing about this clarinet is the top joint. It seems to be long where it fits into the barrel, leaving the barrel approx 1/4 inch above the top of the joint.(The bore). It’s not a cork issue, the tech who looked at it thought it was odd too. None of my barrels fit all the way down onto this joint. I should have taken a picture. It doesn’t seem to lose air. It’s tight, but the ledge inside of the barrel prevents it from going further. I can’t find any info concerning this at all. (If this model had a longer top joint bore?) (as if a tuning ring should go there?)
The third was the cheap plastic one that he started with. It lost a pad, and I was left without, (what I thought) a clarinet for him to use. He has an event coming up, and I wasn’t sure which one to fix. Took everything to the shop today and they recommended checking out the Evette (German B12).
Even though I took everything to the shop to ask, I am still glad I posted here. I have learned so much from these pages, and I’ve learned more than I would have just visiting the shop. I will follow up on the barrel issue, in case anyone runs into this same thing. It’s not a swapping the barrel issue.... the top joint connection seems longer than an average clarinet. Where the top joint fits into the barrel, the recessed area. This is what lead me to post in the first place.
Thanks again for your replies. They are very much appreciated. Though I don’t play, I am fascinated by the instrument.
-S
Post Edited (2019-03-16 09:29)
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Author: m1964
Date: 2019-03-16 09:46
Sharpi wrote:
> Thanks M1964 I appreciate your response and your kind words. I
> apologize that I made this very confusing. There are 3
> clarinets I’m speaking of here.
>
> 30’s Evette & Schaeffer
>
> 60’s (ish) German made Evette (I called it a B12 but it’s a
> Schreiber made Evette) at least I think it’s Schreiber made
> based on the serial number.
>
> Plastic Medini- this was the “show me you’re serious”
> purchase. Then I moved on and got the wooden E&S when he proved
> it was worth a substantial instrument.
>
> The E&S is the clarinet that had the loose bell ring. It was
> repadded by someone else last summer. This January it shrunk
> and I was told to make a home made humidifier box after picking
> it up from the same treatment. When I picked it up the bell
> ring (bottom) was still loose. I did as instructed. I had it
> looked at today, and they said it was fine, just shim the bell.
>
>
> The German Evette is the clarinet that I picked up as a
> project. I’m fairly impressed that I got as far as I did. I
> dropped that off today to be looked at by a pro. Curious to see
> how I did. My pad work was clean, and I know the top joint was
> air tight. On the bottom, one of the pads caused me trouble and
> the key isn’t very springy based on how the same key feels in
> the other clarinets.
> The vexing thing about this clarinet is the top joint. It seems
> to be long where it fits into the barrel, leaving the barrel
> approx 1/4 inch above the top of the joint. It’s not a cork
> issue, the tech who looked at it thought it was odd too. None
> of my barrels fit all the way down onto this joint. I should
> have taken a picture. I can’t find any info concerning this
> at all. (If this model had a longer top joint?)
>
> The third was the cheap plastic one that he started with. It
> lost a pad, and I was left without, (what I thought) a clarinet
> for him to use. He has an event coming up, and I wasn’t sure
> which one to fix. Took everything to the shop today and they
> recommended checking out the Evette (German B12).
>
> Even though I took everything to the shop to ask, I am still
> glad I posted here. I have learned so much from these pages,
> and I’ve learned more than I would have just visiting the
> shop. I will follow up on the barrel issue, in case anyone runs
> into this same thing. It’s not a swapping the barrel
> issue.... the top joint connection seems longer than an average
> clarinet. Where the top joint fits into the barrel, the
> recessed area. This is what lead me to post in the first place.
>
>
> Thanks again for your replies. They are very much appreciated.
> Though I don’t play, I am fascinated by the instrument.
>
Hi Sharpi,
Fixing a musical instrument can be "art", not just a "repair".
I consider myself an experienced player because I used to play professionally (long time ago...) and did some repairs on my and other students` instruments.
A few months ago I re-padded an A clarinet that I play in an amateur symphony orchestra. I also replaced key corks and lubricated screws. The clarinet felt fine until I started playing more in home, not only during rehearsals.
I realized that one of the keys (low F#) was not moving 100% freely. It was moving but just "not right ". Apparently I over-tightened screws holding the key when I re- assembled the lower joint. At the time it was fine but now the temperatures changed and the key started to stick but so slightly that it took me some time to realize the problem.
That is why I think you are doing well with repair of your son`s clarinets.
If the tenon on German Evette is too long it may be difficult to find proper barrel, especially one that would produce decent tuning.
If I were in your position, I would consider selling all 3 clarinets and getting a recent student model (Buffet or Yamaha, etc.) that does not need any work or maybe pads only which you can do yourself. At least, you know now how to test a clarinet for air tightness. 😉
I do believe that most likely either of the three clarinets can be brought to decent "playable" condition, the problem is that the definition of "playable" varies and the cost of the work may exceed the price of the instrument(s).
And you are absolutely right: this board is an excellent source of information, thanks to contributors like Paul, clarnibass, KDK and many others.
PS
when I re-pad a clarinet, I first take off all keys, then plug all holes with children clay, and then install one key+pad at a time and check for vacuum.
Sometimes I needed to install one key/pad at a time, with all other keys removed and holes plugged to find out which one was not holding air/vacuum.
Post Edited (2019-03-16 16:00)
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Author: Sharpi
Date: 2019-03-20 04:32
Ok, the verdict is in on the Evette (B12) clarinet. I didn’t do too bad of a job in repairs. The top joint was good as I suspected. The bottom joint needs work. For my first try, I’m rather satisfied, and the cost to finish the job was reasonable. I would like to ask you guys one more question. I asked the tech, if I should just bag the Evette and just buy a new student model? He said there was no need, the Evette was perfectly fine. He said in the event that the barrel was an issue in the long run, he recommended buying another “parts” Evette off eBay or buy a click barrel. Which option do you think is the best way to go? This is the first I’ve heard of a “click barrel”. I get the concept, but is this too soon to introduce such a tool? My son is still in middle school.
Post Edited (2019-03-20 06:28)
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Author: donald
Date: 2019-03-20 12:06
The problem with the B12 is that the barrel won't go all the way on... and the tech is recommending buying a new joint as a solution?????? Ummm I live in NZ, and it's not exactly crawling with great techs, but the 2 or 3 that I usually communicate with would have no problem fixing that up (easily with a wood horn, but also with a plastic one). In fact, one of the new Buffet student model clarinets my students turn up with (what's the new model called? something beginning with p?) had this problem just 2 weeks ago. It's not hard to fix....
btw I had a student with an old E@S like you have- it had amazing tuning, better than a new R13. Maybe a little resistant for my liking, but that student plays to a very high standard in amateur groups in the UK now, and told me last time we talked that she'd never felt any need to buy a new horn (money is NOT an issue here).
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Author: Sharpi
Date: 2019-03-20 19:34
Thanks for your reply Donald. The tech is fixing up the bottom joint for less than $50, finishing the repair work that I started. He is recommending a barrel in the event the one I have is a problem. We just don’t know yet. He recommended buying a parts clarinet for the barrel alone, or the click barrel.
Thanks for the info about the ES. I absolutely love the sound of that horn, but I’m fixing up the B12 as a back up piece for winters. He recommended orange peels in the case to keep the ES hydrated. For a split second I considered selling it, but my son would not be happy about that. For that matter I would be sad too. The click barrel was recommended not for tuning but to fit properly, since finding just an Evette barrel would be almost impossible.
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Author: Sharpi
Date: 2019-03-21 00:04
What luck!!! I messaged a guy on eBay who was selling big lots of clarinet joints. Some of them were Evette’s so I asked if he had a plastic Evette barrel, and he did! Thank you all so much for your input. I’m guessing the tech didn’t offer to “fix” the barrel as he does a lot of work for schoolsand probably wasn’t worth his time. In the long run, I continue to learn about this wonderful instrument.
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