 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Jim70
Date: 2019-02-11 07:33
Greetings all.
I have a Selmer Paris 10G clarinet.
The serial number reads C3419.
What year clarinet would this be?
I’m a saxophonist and minimally knowledged on clarinets.
Any useful info greatly appreciated.
Thx
Jim
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Author: Ken Lagace
Date: 2019-02-11 18:12
1977? No serial beginning with "C". Is it another letter?
From;
http://www.woodwindforum.com/clarinetperfection/selmer-paris/#10G
Selmer 10G
“G” stands for Gigliotti, a principal clarinetist in the
Philadelphia Symphony
Selmer made the 10G as a copy of Anthony Gigliotti’s personal
Buffet R-13. Though being machine made they were accurate up until a
point. Hans Moennig apparently hand tweaked the 10Gs to be more like
AGs R13, but only in the serial number range of Z6835 through A1200
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Author: Jim70
Date: 2019-02-11 18:58
Hi Ken,
Bizzare I could only find C 3419 in 3 places.
Took pics if I can get the to you somehow?
Jim
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Author: Jim70
Date: 2019-02-11 23:04
Having difficulty adding attachments to this post.
Jim
Is there an email I may send pics to?
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Author: Ken Lagace
Date: 2019-02-11 23:14
I cannot help any more. I just Googled
"Selmer Paris 10G clarinet serial numbers"
and found the link that way.
There is more there to research. Others may also be able to help here.
Good Luck
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Author: kdk
Date: 2019-02-12 00:19
FWIW, my 10G A clarinet has a C3xxx. All I know about it is that Gigliotti brought it back from Paris, as he did with a number of 10Gs at a time through the '70s and, I think, early '80s. Mine was used in the Philadelphia Orchestra for at least a short time, then sold to one of his students (I had finished my formal study with him in 1974), who later sold it to me when he decided to go back to Buffets. I think my clarinet was produced sometime in the late 1970s.
Karl
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2019-02-12 00:25
C is from the early to mid '80s - D was sometime around '85-'88.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: kdk
Date: 2019-02-12 00:38
Ken Lagace wrote:
> Hans Moennig apparently hand tweaked the 10Gs to be more
> like
> AGs R13, but only in the serial number range of Z6835 through
> A1200
Ken, **I don't mean this as a challenge but out of genuine curiosity.** When Gigliotti first began developing the 10G, he carefully hid the process from Moennig, even covering the logos on the new instruments with black electrical tape lest Moennig might be in the audience. When Moennig finally found out about it, he was (understandably) beyond livid and wouldn't work on any of the 10Gs that people naively brought into his shop for repairs. His then partner, Casimir L., was happy to work on them, but you had to bring it to his home shop, not to Moennig's (I actually bought my Bb 10G in 1973 from Cas by arrangement with Gigliotti).
AFAIK, Gigliotti was never again welcome in Moennig's shop - I don't know if they ever spoke. Gigliotti was forced to begin taking his clarinets to a couple of young repairers who had been his students, who did continue the tweaking process.
So I would very much like to know if there is reliable authority for Moennig's having worked on the 10Gs himself. It would change my understanding of the whole situation.
Karl
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Author: Ken Lagace
Date: 2019-02-12 00:45
As mentioned above, these are not my thoughts. I Googled to give a new poster some help and got the information from another site that Google suggested.
Thanks for helping get the facts straight though.
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Author: kdk
Date: 2019-02-12 00:57
Ken Lagace wrote:
> Thanks for helping get the facts straight though.
Well, they're only the facts as far as I know them. I would actually love to find out that I've misunderstood for all these decades.
Karl
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2019-02-14 16:01
Well the facts are close and the dates are mixed up a tad. For example Moennig died in the early 80's I think. I studied with him for about a year in the late 70's. At this time Tony Gigliotti was playing on 10's. But not 10G's. He usually did his own work from what his students said. I never met him.
I know Buffet was trying to make a Selmer copy and this was pretty much the end of the great 1960's horns and early 70's R13 bores. Buffet actually put that much trust in one man. So crazy.
I can see Hans Moennig livid I saw him explode at people and tell them to never come back. He didn't hold back his anger at all. I don't care if you were the president of the USA, Hans said what was on his mind. Yet he was a small man, about 5'6 and weighed in around 130 pounds and hunched over. But I was long gone teaching college for a year, then the DC Air Force, and finally went to Rico.
What players now don't really know is how gifted this man was. His clarinet sound wasn't too good, but his ear was. Some may say he had perfect pitch because when he tuned up a horn the low notes to the high notes were dead on. No metronome was used. No dead notes, every note was so clean, crisp, and clear. To this day this is why I use cork pads. I want that clean, crisp, sound.
Moennig was no dummy. If this story was true about the electrical tape Hans very well knew Tony played on Selmers. Perhaps Tony said it was a new Buffet prototype. Something stinks or is fishy here. I can promise you that Hans is no fool and within a very short time of playing the horn or even just looking at the key work, Hans knew it wasn't a Buffet. He was simply a Master. You can't fool a master. The best in the world or at least the best in the country.
When testing a clarinet his repair room was pretty large, no carpet, but he would always stand in this one spot, the right corner as you walked into the room. This was where he could hear best. Every horn was tested at this same spot. This was where his radio was playing classical music all day. Maybe he would use the music as a background for tuning and projection. I'm not sure; I actually just thought of it as I write this.
My guess is probably around 1976 or so was when the 10G came out. Buffet changed their bores I think in 1974. This date is very close, probably within 1 year or so. When teaching at York College I stopped by to say hello to him and smoke a couple bowls of pipe. He expressed his anger about the new bores and was designing shorter reverse tapered Moennig barrels. He was also making new reamers and undercutting tooling.
Surprisingly it, the 10G, is not the most valued 10 series players look for who love the 10 series. So both companies kind of screwed up. The 10G was not that great and Buffet wrecked the R13 forever.
Sorry this is so long, but I think the history of Buffet and the 10 Series should be kept alive and accurate because these clarinets completely changed for the worse as well as the sound quality of the clarinets.
Fellow clarinets may be confident to giving us the very exact dates but I know I'm close. Perhaps there isn't an exact date on the 10G.
A hidden secret Buffet dumped was the S1. Ths was an expanded reverse taper
kinda like what Hans did with the barrels but Buffet did it with the upper joint.
If some of you want backup Buffets take a serious look at the late 1970's S1. It was only made for 3 years. You may be able to fine one on ebay that's had very little use and selling for much less than R13's. Buffet should have kept making these. Even Hans loved the sound. Well it's 4AM time for sleep. Hope I dream of someone playing Beethoven's 5th from the last page, the 4th movement to the opening. I must be tired to say that!
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
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Author: saxack
Date: 2024-02-04 23:28
New to the forum and excited to post my new acquisition.
A 1977 Selmer Series 10G Z97XX. Near Mint condition! With original black pouchette case.
Just finished taking off all the keywork. I haven’t been able to play it yet as this was sitting untouched for over 45 years in a very high and dry climate. All the tenon rings and bell ring were loose. It’s sitting in a humidifier and I’ll keep checking on it. It’s in amazing condition with all original pads, etc. And to think that this actual clarinet was most likely hand finished by Ralph Morgan himself is remarkable. I’m currently playing on a Series 9, W58XX (1970) and a 1994 Buffet R13. I’m so looking forward to comparing the 3 clarinets. Will keep you posted!!
250-818-1955
Post Edited (2024-02-05 02:47)
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Author: saxack
Date: 2024-02-11 09:59
No. They are original! Everything on this is completely original. And there is almost no wear. When I took it apart, I expected to find at least some small corrosion or rust. But there was none. Even the blue steel springs are clean and rust free. The pads look pretty darn good for being 48 years old as well.
I even noticed a very light bore “ream line” in the upper joint just below the register pip and this coincides with what others have said that Ralph Morgan worked on the upper joint taper and barrel joint (I now see 2 lines…one below the pip and one above…see photo). I also noticed some tone hole undercutting in the larger tone holes. And of course it has the reverse tapered hard rubber sleeve in the barrel. Since I live in BC Canada, I might try to see if the clarinet marker, Morrie Backun could get some precise measurements of the entire clarinet as I have not seen this information anywhere.
I’ll post on how it plays, but it feels much better in my smaller hands and somewhat wide fingers than my Series 9 and of course my R13.
250-818-1955
Post Edited (2024-02-11 11:05)
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Author: saxack
Date: 2024-02-13 06:32
Got it back in the case and doing my first play test in a few days!
250-818-1955
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Author: saxack
Date: 2024-02-13 07:07
Back in the case! Play testing in a few days
250-818-1955
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Author: saxack
Date: 2024-02-15 06:05
Just did my first short play test. The verdict: just like it was designed….R13 sound with the beautiful Selmer feel of the tone holes/keywork. However, the barrel that came with it, 66mm plays really flat in the lower register and throat tones G F# F and E are really stuffy. Then I put on a 65mm 10G barrel with a different bore size and it’s open and plays in tune. And just for kicks, I put on a 70’s 64mm R13 barrel on it and it plays fantastic! Super happy with this instrument.
250-818-1955
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