 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: DD
Date: 2019-02-08 04:49
I recently discovered the Austrian clarinet maker Gerold Klarinetten, and he's now selling a bulb-shaped bell (like that in oboe d'amore and English horn) which can be fit to a Bb or A clarinet. According to the website:
https://www.gerold-klarinetten.at/en/innovations.html
"Bach, Mendelssohn, Strauss, Ravel… They all loved the soft, veiled and slightly sonorous sound of the oboe d'amore. So why not enhance the clarinet with this sensual sound?
D’amore clarinets were actually already built at the end of the 18th century, mainly in a lower pitch. Over time, they were replaced by the more popular basset horn.
The bell d'amore is perfect for the low and slightly mystical sound of the A clarinet.
However, it is also a fantastic addition to the Bb clarinet, allowing you to explore a completely new sound spectrum.
As the name suggests, you may well find yourself falling in love with the bell d’amore – especially if you are into multiphonics."
I wonder if anyone has any experience with this bell, or clarinet d'amore in general ?
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2019-02-08 15:18
I have tried to fit my cor anglais bell on my clarinets, but the tenons are a little too wide whereas a Selmer BT or CT clarinet bell will easily go on a Marigaux cor with a bit of paper wrapped around the tenon to turn it into an oboe da caccia.
Some cor bells with wider sockets may fit a clarinet better - I think Howarth cor bells may fit on clarinets if they have a wider socket diameter compared to Marigaux cors. Loree cors have really narrow sockets, so they won't fit - as cor bell sockets are normally lined, maybe removing the liner will make the socket a better fit.
Gerold has links with Howarth, so maybe they supplied him the cor bell blanks - they used to make the joint blanks for a couple of his clarinet models in the late '90s/early '00s.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: ruben
Date: 2019-02-08 16:15
Very interesting. What does this do to intonation? I have in mind especially low F and E and A-440.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: DD
Date: 2019-02-08 20:58
Ruben, intonation is sure a concern. Especially since he makes Oehler clarinets, so presumably his bells may not work for Boehm clarinets. I have written to Gerold about it and is waiting his reply.
But I am more interested to know what it does to the tone colour... I am asking Gerold to see if he has any demo videos of the bells in action. Couldn't find any sound samples of the bells or clarinet d'amore
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Author: DD
Date: 2019-02-09 06:29
Hi smokindok, can you post a clip of you playing with this setup? I'm very interested to know how the bell affects the tone colour as well as intonation!
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Author: DD
Date: 2019-02-09 06:33
And btw, from Gerold's Facebook, he seems to be making a complete clarinet d'amore from boxwood! I'm drooling over how it will look and sound....
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Author: smokindok
Date: 2019-02-09 08:14
DD, did not have time to play with it much, but did notice both E/F and the twelfth above B/C were quite flat.
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Author: ruben
Date: 2019-02-09 11:07
That's what I was afraid of. A little hole in the bell could rectify this, but has to be the right size and in the right place. -a tall order!
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: ruben
Date: 2019-02-09 17:39
DD: I think the best bell would be one that sends the pressure waves back to the mouthpiece and reed fastest. Maybe a traditional bell, but that could be put on the lower joint without there being cork between the lower-body tenon and the bell (wood on wood? -some method that would allow sealing, absence of the bell getting stuck to the lower joint and less of a damping effect due to the presence of cork. It's worth experimenting with this.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: DD
Date: 2019-02-09 17:54
Ruben: I must confess I have very limited knowledge on acoustics and woodwind physics, but I suppose you are right.
But what interests me about the bell is the rather different timbres between oboe and an oboe d'amore/ cor, and what effect the shape of the bell has on it, and how that would play out in a cylindrical bore instrument like a clarinet. In the case of oboe v d'amore/cor, I don't know how much of the effect is contributed from the longer bore (lower pitch) vis a vis the bell. Anyway, if clarinet d'amore really does have a different timbre (which I bet it does), then surely it would open up a whole new world for performance.
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Author: ruben
Date: 2019-02-09 18:04
DD: ..in which case it would be of the clarinet family, but a different instrument. Why not? I'll see if they have any clarinet d'amours" at the Paris Conservatory museum and if they'll let me try one. I'm intrigued by this. I'm not sure just the onion-shaped bell would be enough to make a major difference in tone. It's bound to make some fifference, though. I seem to recall that the late Allan Hacker experimented with this.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2019-02-09 19:45
Using a clarinet bell on cor definitely opens up the sound far more than the usual pear-shaped bell. Moennig are offering cors and d'amores with both pear and flared bells for the different tonal qualities they yield.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: DD
Date: 2019-02-09 22:50
Reuben: please do try it if you can get your hands on one of it, and tell us more about it !
Chris: I agree that the bell shape will make a difference in the tonal qualities, and that is why I would live to experiment it with clarinet.
Gerold told me that his bells are designed to work with Austrian (which I suppose to be Viennese and /or Oehler clarinets). Given the difference in bore shape at the lower end of the lower joint between Boehm and Oehler, I doubt his model will work with Boehm clarinets. Any views?
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2019-02-10 01:06
With cor bells, if you extend the end of the conical section within the bell by filling in the hollowed out section, that will drop the pitch of the bell note by a semitone. That's useful if you need a low Bb on cor (for Mahler symphonies and other works requiring a low Bb on cor) and haven't got an instrument built to that length as most cors descend to low B natural. The length, diameter and bore taper of the bell throat before it meets the hollowed out section is the critical factor for determining the correct pitch.
If you know any oboe makers who have scrap cor bells with serious natural defects in the wood or significant cracks that can't be supplied with an instrument, see if you can get hold of them to experiment with. And even better if you're based in France as there are plenty of oboe makers there who will without doubt have scrap joints they have no real use for apart from turning into ornaments. Like clarinet bells, oboe and cor bells have the inside profile done before the outside is shaped so you may find some bell blanks with the inside shape already done. Howarth turned a lot of their scrap cor bells into water pots with a plastic container held within the hollowed section.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: DD
Date: 2019-02-11 10:03
Chris: With your connection with Howarth, do you think you can ask them to give you/ me some scrap cor bells for experimentation purpose? Or do you think they would sell a properly made cor bell to us?
Smokindok: With your setup, do you think drilling a hole in cor bell/ cutting the bell short will help with the low E/F and clarion B/C? Of course I'm not asking you to do that, just seeking your views.
I have since reached out to Gerold. He sent me a drawing of the bell showing the socket has a diameter of 26.4mm, and it should fit the lower joint of my Bb clarinet (and most French Bb clarinets). However, the diameter of the bore of the bell (at the interface with the lower joint) is around 21mm. Compares that with a diameter of around 23mm at the lower part of the lower joint, that means if the bell is used in a French clarinet (like my own), there will be a sudden change in bore diameter at the interface. This is not unexpected due to the difference in bore design between French and German clarinets. But I want to know is whether this sudden change in bore diameter would adversely affect the response, intonation, etc. of the clarinet. Any ideas?
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2019-02-11 17:20
I was interested in the idea of an amore bell because I felt that the quality of my long B was better when I had the clarinet resting on my knees- in other words creating a kind of reverse-flare with my legs. I asked Robert Stempfle in Zürich to make something for me. He made a two prototypes but I haven't yet had the time to develop the idea further with him. The advantages were a more focused sound in the long notes E/B and F/C, and a smoother transition over the break. The disadvantage was that I found the whole sound above the break to be more narrow. But as I said, we didn't yet do enough experimenting and there are many variables which could affect the results.
Last year Andreas Schöni in Bern made a period basset clarinet for me. I felt that the amore bell wasn't giving me optimal results and he ended up building 7 different bells for me! There are so many factors which changed the sound of the whole instrument (not just the lowest notes)- volume of the inside of the bell, curves of the walls, thickness of the walls, shape of the rim, holes in the bell, etc.
It seems to me to be a field wide open for experimentation. If you speak to Cor Anglais players, they will tell you what a huge difference their bell makes. Amore bells were made on clarinets of various sizes in the 18th and 19th centuries. Why did makers settle on the normal flared bell? Is it because it is inherently better? Or was the amore bell prohibitively difficult to make and extensively experiment with? Why do the Cor Anglais and Oboe d'Amore have this shaped bell but not normal oboes and clarinets? Lots of questions...
Regarding the Gerold bell- I think that a 2mm narrowing in the bore at the interface with the lower joint would have a choking effect on the sound. To get an idea of what it might be like, you could fill in the inside your normal bell with play-dough or some similar kind of removable modelling compound.
Let us know the results...
Post Edited (2019-02-11 17:25)
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Author: ruben
Date: 2019-02-11 19:58
Good to have an opinion from the very erudite Liquorice, who one always derives tremendous benefit from reading! True: many unanswered questions. The length of a barrel seems to influence tone quite a bit. I find "fatboy" bells (thick-walled) to produce a thuddy sound. It might be worth experimenting with thin-walled ones (Buffet makes one). Why do the walls of the clarinet have to be of the same thickness from top to bottom? I have a hunch that slightly reducing the thickness of the walls from barrel to bell might produce interesting results. "Might" I have said.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: ruben
Date: 2019-02-11 20:15
Dear Liquorice, you allowed serendipity to guide you, which often works! The "reverse flare" principle seems to have interesting acoustic properties. At JL Clarinettes, we have experimented with this on vent tubes (the 12th hole). Why not experiment with a bell that would have an hour-glass shape rather than a bulbous amore shape? You never know.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: mddds
Date: 2019-02-12 01:09
if it helps, the tenon ends of the Bb & A R-13s and Wurlitzer 100CSs are too wide for the Loree i3 EH bell. it's not a close fit.
....and the Buffet Prestige Eb tenon end is too small for the EH bell.
-CK
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Author: DD
Date: 2019-02-12 13:34
Thanks all for the wonderful inputs! Much appreciated!
Liquorice: Thanks for your interesting thoughts and experience sharing. My difficulty is that I am based in Hong Kong and I don't have easy access to instrument makers to collaborate with. My best bet would be to reach out to oboe makers like Howarth for a spare cor bell to experiment with (as suggested by Chris), or to purchase the bell from Gerold and modify the bore of it. Obviously if there is a ready product for sale in the market, so much the better.
Smokindok: Could you please tell me the bore diameter of the Howarth cor bell at the interface with the lower joint?
Post Edited (2019-02-12 13:56)
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