 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-03-11 16:51
I didn't want to be the first to copy in text ......but the last bullet under "resonance effects" says:
"Abolishment or reduction of wolves"
That's something that most pads cannot do I would reckin'.
On a serious note the description sounds interesting. I'm always looking for a better___________ (insert your preference here) for clarinet. So far I like the synthetic Kraus Omni Pads and the Kraus version from Valentino. If the QRP are better with "water adhesion" I would really be interested to try them out.
..................Paul Aviles
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2014-03-11 23:19
Once they've abolished wolves, what other endangered species will they persecute after that?
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Steven Ocone
Date: 2014-03-12 02:19
These pads will definitely change the sound of the clarinet. Each pad has it's effect. Is it a change you want? Clarinets were developed with felt pads in mind. Not that we shouldn't change them out.
Steve Ocone
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Author: cyclopathic
Date: 2014-03-12 15:26
Steven Ocone wrote:
> These pads will definitely change the sound of the clarinet.
> Each pad has it's effect. Is it a change you want? Clarinets
> were developed with felt pads in mind. Not that we shouldn't
> change them out.
>
they are OEM on 5-10,000€ Schwenk und Seggelke klarinette
with respect to changing sound changing say bladder to kangaroo pad definitely changes sound, but it is mostly due to much better seal, not some "mystical" acoustical properties; that was my observation
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Author: Steven Ocone
Date: 2014-03-12 12:05
I would agree that proper seal is more important that pad type, but in my experience the pad type has a noticeable effect. An excellent seal can be obtained with bladder pads if they are installed with the same precision as other pads. Some pads are more forgiving of key play and wood issues. I use different pads depending on the situation.
Steve Ocone
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2014-03-12 12:23
To me it seems that the pad may have merit, as long as it does not have too much of elastomeric rather than accommodating qualities about it. (Silicone rubber layers make me suspicious???) Elastomeric qualities do not feel good for pads that are normally open.
But I would accept the advertising better without the seeming pseudo-science hype...
"Quartz-Resonance-Pad"
"better and permanently constant resonance level"
"optimal tightness"
"reflects the sound waves"
"The included ferrum oxyd is responsible for a warm and sonorous sound"
"the reflection of sound waves"
"“phase compensation”"
What's with the protruding rod of aluminium?
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Author: cyclopathic
Date: 2014-03-12 18:10
Gordon (NZ) wrote:
> To me it seems that the pad may have merit, as long as it does
> not have too much of elastomeric rather than accommodating
> qualities about it. (Silicone rubber layers make me
> suspicious???) Elastomeric qualities do not feel good for pads
> that are normally open.
>
I kinda agree and disagree with this.. IMHO b/c soft pads are more forgiving they end up sloppy/not properly installed as installers stop as soon as pad is sealing. However, if pad is installed to touch all around at once, the difference in feel isn't that big. Of cause setting soft pad 100% right is more difficult task
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2014-03-13 18:30
Yes, I tend to agree.
I think that very soft pads tend to be of inferior quality with irregular thickness around the pad. And I hate that.
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Author: dorjepismo ★2017
Date: 2018-12-29 01:25
This is an old thread, but I recently got clarinets with these pads, and discovered that Andreas Moe, of woodwindboutique.com, associated with Moe-Bleichner in PA, sells them. The website lists sets for different makes of clarinet, but if you write him with the size of pads you want, he can sell them individually or make up custom sets.
It's hard to know what's attributable to the bore, wood, and toneholes, and what's attributable to the pads, without taking off all the pads and putting different ones on, but the instruments are quite resonant, noticeably more than what I was playing before, and especially in the lower register. They don't develop much of a groove where they hit the toneholes, so seating them is probably a lot like seating cork pads. Anyway, I like playing them, probably better than Valentinos.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2018-12-29 08:26
Ok, I am even more intrigued by these as time goes on. Of course they are about $100 more than the Valentino Masters which are perfectly wonderful.
What makes cork and the Valentino Masters (and the Kraus Omni Pads) so enticing (and I've used all those) is just what is described in the Moe Bleichner blurb; air-tight and reflective. The Omnis (the ones that I used) where a bit noisy (particularly on the bottom four) which should not be the case with "silicone."
I guess I'm going to have to ask my repair guy if he's game.
"Dorjepismo,"
What instrument is it (make/model)? Would you say these pads are really silent when slammed down upon the instrument? Do they seem to have "weight" to them (any noticeable "loginess" in trilling the last four cups)? To answer your musing about comparison, I can tell you that really flat (and somewhat rigid) surfaced pads give you MUCH more sound out of your horn. That is why the Brannens (and others) have been pro cork for many many years.
..................Paul Aviles
Post Edited (2018-12-29 12:13)
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2018-12-29 11:44
>> The Omnis (the ones that I used) where a bit noisy (particularly on the bottom four) which should not be the case with "silicone." <<
What model did you have on the bottom keys? They make two models, one with a slightly softer foam and specifically recommend that for the large bottom keys.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2018-12-29 12:10
Clarnibass,
I had used those some years ago and do not remember a specific model. They must have been the "harder ones" though because there was some talk at the time of their being different hardnesses available. They were kinda new to both me and the shop (circa 2008) at the time. They were usable but "clacky" at the bottom.
................Paul Aviles
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Author: dorjepismo ★2017
Date: 2018-12-30 01:04
Paul, the instruments are French bore Schwenk & Seggelkes, with some extra mechanisms more common on their reform Boehms. They aren't completely silent, but make less noise than anything else I've used. I haven't noticed any heaviness or slowness in trills and fast passages.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2019-02-06 18:49
I wanted to follow up with my experiment of adding these pads to my new R13 Greenline clarinet. The effect is simply amazing! I have used cork (full Brannenization), Kraus Omni Pads and Valentino Masters. It is clear that what makes those pads great is that they seal perfectly (the first most important element to getting a good resonant sound), they are flat (which allows the sound to reflect out.......I have reasons to truly believe the importance of that but it's a long explanation and they last a very long time.
The Quartz Resonance Pads are all those things AND they are almost as silent hitting against the body of the horn as good felt based pads, AND........
There seems to honestly be some extra quality to them that lends an even greater amount of resonance to the sound, a VERY palpable difference!
This the verbiage off the website:
"The impact absorption is efficiently provided by the extremely flexible and soft
transparent layer of silicone. More precisely, this material is responsible for two
effects: the so called “phase compensation”, a necessary wave balancing process
between the tone hole (vibrating body) and the key itself; and the minimization
of destructive interference (unwanted cancellation of waves). That’s what a felt
is supposed to do in a conventional pad.Unfortunately, the felt has not only the
effect of phase compensation but also cancels all the frequencies almost entirely."
I will engage the owner/operator/distributor further over this to see if there is any way to clarify this assertion.
If there are any acousticians out there who can chime in on what is going on here, I'd appreciate it.
And that brings up "squishiness." These pads are silicone but they are not squishy like a water bed, or even Valentino Greenbacks. They have some give when you press on them but I have them on every key, and the "one-and-one" Bb works beautifully with them.
They are pricey at $150.00 for a set (three times a set of Valentino Masters) and you have to find a repair tech willing to take on the task. But I feel confident in saying that they are well worth the added hurdles.
........................Paul Aviles
Post Edited (2019-02-06 23:28)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2019-02-07 09:35
Well thank you soooooooo much Bennet!
It appears that my original snarkiness actually made fun of a very REAL acoustic phenomenon. I can't say that I've ever heard a resonating sound come off a clarinet (though there was one audition where I made some metal stand in the room hum like a tuning fork).
I guess then what the original description was getting at is that there is some unwanted vibrations of the key work that cause a loss of sound rather than an audible "wolf tone" (maybe).
I have asked Andreas for some input on this but he just left for Europe and will respond upon returning later this month.
But I think you have put this question on the right track!
Many, many thanks.
......................Paul Aviles
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2019-02-07 13:26
Ah, and I can answer the query about the "protruding stem of aluminum." You cut that off! The idea is to give the tech something to hold if he needs or wants to shape the pad. It is recommended to use a dremel tool with rather high revolutions for the process. Shaping is allowed but you DON'T want to puncture the silicon (that can cause separation between layers). Once the tech no longer needs to do anything further to the pad, the protrusion gets cut off so the pad will seat.
....................Paul Aviles
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Author: Kalashnikirby
Date: 2019-02-07 16:58
Paul, initially, I've been very sceptical about these pads, but with you praising them now...
There's people denying any effect of the pad on the clarinet's sound, but personally, I feel like a pad mainly has to seal well, without compressing to much. I have a rather "soft touch", so cork pads are perfect for me right now.
What's the exact difference/ improvement to cork? The better resonance you described? Or even more?
150 a set isn't even that much, considering a Goretex pad sells for around 10€ I know of a repairman who repadded clarinets of cologne university (a highly regarded conservatory), but then again, a pro told me he pretty much dislikes them, for they make a clarinet sound "dead".
Anyways, I'm intrigued! Still haven't heard of their long-term durability.
Best regards
Christian
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Author: dorjepismo ★2017
Date: 2019-02-07 18:45
The pads are used extensively on my new S&S set, and I've absolutely nothing bad to say about them. The instruments are extraordinarily resonant, especially in the low register, and I'm guessing the pads contribute a lot to that. A very light touch seals cleanly. It was suggested I oil the instruments quite frequently in the beginning, especially as there are a couple surface cracks in the Bb, and this results sometimes on oil getting on the pads. Using drying paper gets rid of that, though I've also used alcohol once or twice to get rid of stickiness without ill effects to the pads; so they don't seem to be more delicate than other pads as far as cleaning. In addition to selling them, Andreas will happily repad instruments if you like, and his rates seem reasonable, especially for an instrument maker doing warranty work for Uebel. I'll probably have that done on my old instruments after I've completely switched over. I will say that having to dremel the nubs off the back before you seat them doesn't seem like the world's best design.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2019-02-07 19:42
Let me start from the bottom. My repairman is Miles Davis of "Miles Ahead Music" in Louisville Kentucky. He is one of the best woodwind repairpeople in the US bar none. He and I are both REALLY curious to know what aging affects might happen. In my quest to know more about them I contacted some folks from the Board off line and one response I got back was that at about seven years down the road they got harder. The consequence of that is that "they get a little bit louder - and that's it."
So that brings me to the sound. They are louder (from my perspective) than cork. Upon seeing your question about quality of sound though it made me try and dust off some memories. I think when I first experienced cork there was that extra force to the sound that made other things more acceptable such as the noisiness against the body of the horn (clacky keys) and perhaps a bit of brightness in the tone (I never tried Gortex so I cannot compare, but it is noteworthy that any hint that Gortex pads made things even more bright convinced me to avoid them). I would say then that you get more loudness from the QRPs in that they seal and reflect, but also (and again I'm trying to wrap my head around this) allow for a warmth of sound too.
I must also add Miles Davis' comment to this as well. First though he is more of a saxophone player. I asked him what he thought of the sound when he played it. His response was guarded, really only saying that he was not familiar with my horn. I pressed him a bit and I got an interesting musing. He said "I wonder if you could drill through the material and add a resonator." So he may have thought that more brightness would have been appropriate.
To sum up the sound character MY feeling is that the sheer volume is greater and there is no particular emphasis of the upper partials whatsoever. And MAYBE this "brightening" is what happens when the QRPs gets older and a bit stiffer. They may just become "cork" (not necessarily a bad thing).
And finally the compression. When I referred to the squishiness, the most apt analogy would be a felt/bladder pad. If you push on a key cup equipped with a felt/bladder pad with a bit of force, you can watch it GIVE. This is exactly the same compliance of these silicone pads (which are incredibly light weight as well!). You DON'T get "give" with cork. So to sum that up, there is nothing unusual feeling about this pad (but if you're like me the first thing you'll want to do is pick it up to feel for weight, and push on it to feel the squish!)
Oh, and one thing to throw out there for the brave at heart who order Quartz Resonance Pads. When you open the box and pull out the packets of different sizes your first thought will be 'OH NO, these pads are all too small! Andreas was more than willing to exchange whatever Miles deemed too small (or too big). They all worked great. Note though that they are sized according to the SPACE of the key cup and Miles had to go back and do some glue clean up where some glue had come out between the pads and the cup.
........................Paul Aviles
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Author: Kalashnikirby
Date: 2019-02-08 00:19
Guess I need to start saving for a set of S&S clarinets in Mpingo, padded with QRPs... good thing I'm finishing dental school this summer
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2019-02-08 02:04
Oh, let me clarify the use of the dremel. You HOLD the pad with the aluminum nub on the back so that you can work the silicone with a speedy dremel, such as doing the usual bevel on the octave key pad. Once you no longer need to hold the pad to do any work on the pad itself you CUT the aluminum nub off. I assume repair folks have a handy cutting tool so I never bothered to ask what that is.
...................Paul Aviles
Post Edited (2019-02-08 07:36)
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Author: dorjepismo ★2017
Date: 2019-02-08 18:43
Huh. I thought the pads had a coating that is 25% quartz, hence the name and attendant resonance. Working the silicone with a dremel would probably remove the coating. I think the coating is still there on all the pads on my horns, and none of the appear beveled, but certainly a lot of techs do that with cork register pads. Possibly the intricacy of having to cut the nubs off without damaging fingers might make the things less popular with people who do a lot of their own pad replacement.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2019-02-08 20:02
I guess I am really bad at clarifying. Working the EDGE of the pads allows you the ability to make them narrower as you move toward the top.........which has the quartz layer (red surface layer). So you always want the red surface layer to be what lays upon the tone hole (you DON'T want to remove it).
WARNING: You do NOT want to use a "pad puller" when installing your own QRPS!!!! Putting a hole in the material could cause separation between the layers (and you want those layers to remain).
I assume that anyone who installs their own pads (the vast MINORITY.....I would hope) have enough experience to know a few things about machining and have some very specific tools and supplies for that process from a tool company like Votaw. Personally I recommend taking advantage of folks who do that for a living. They PRACTICE their craft like we practice ours. Of course being able to regularly oil, and doing various gluing of corks and such is helpful (I keep a few standard pads available in my tool bag to accomplish emergency replacement if something crazy happens). But a full professional repadding is an art and I appreciate the work of those who do it with aplomb.
..............Paul Aviles
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