 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: GenEric
Date: 2018-12-21 03:05
I've been using the M13L and 3.5+ v12s for two years now. Over the years, my embouchure had matured and I'm looking for more depth and flexibility in my sound. My teacher and I both agreed that my sound is thin. He suggested that I try out other more open mouthpieces. Have you found success in making the sound more full with an open mouthpiece? What are some popular vandoren mouthpiece + Reed combination on the market now that many professionals use? My teacher uses a B40L and traditional reeds but im curious in other mouthpieces.
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Author: fernie121
Date: 2018-12-21 03:30
I use a Vandoren BD5 with 3,5 V21 reeds. A lot of people have trouble with open mouthpieces wearing out their embouchure. But I find that if you have the proper amount of reed in your mouth, which usually means more that what people naturally do, then your air support becomes more of a factor than embouchure pressure.
In the past I’ve used a B40 with Traditional reeds, sometimes V12. That’s even more open. It requires more work and control of your air support to have a focused sound but getting a full and deep sound comes much more naturally.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2018-12-21 03:36
So my assessment of the mouthpiece issue is that the mouthpiece is what can make your articulation and pitch better by accommodating how you play. That is, the amount of mouthpiece you are more comfortable placing inside your mouth, the angle at which you hold the instrument and the type of reeds that you use.
I don't agree with the premise that more open mouthpieces inherently gives you more sound or a more vibrant timbre.
I use a particularly small tip opening and a short lay and I would say most people you would ask probably would say they could use LESS of my sound.
We recently had a thread here that pointed out that the clarinet sound is created by the pressure differential between the air column in your horn vs the the pressure within your mouth. There are many ways educators have described this, such as "blowing a steady stream of air," "blowing cold air," etc.
Bottom line is that you have a good standard mouthpiece. If the articulation and feel of it work for you, I would give another shot at creating a better pressure differential. You do need to actively PUSH the air continually as you play. One way to arrive at a sense of the "feel" required all the time is to take a deep breath and hold it back just with your lips, AND allow your cheeks to puff out (just to really get the "pressure" thing). Once you release that immediate puff of air, things equalize. But when you play, it should continually feel like that initial holding back of the air........through the point where you take your next breath.
.....................Paul Aviles
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Author: kdk
Date: 2018-12-21 06:05
GenEric wrote:
> My teacher and I both agreed
> that my sound is thin. He suggested that I try out other more
> open mouthpieces.
Thin sounds come from poor oral shape, poor use of air and/or pinching the reed in one way or another. If pinching is your main problem, you may be able to compensate for it by using a more open tip, but it night be better to fix the underlying problem.
Does your teacher sound thin on your mouthpiece, or can he manage to get a full sound with it despite his being more used to the B40L?
I think there are probably many of us who play mouthpieces with tip openings equivalent to or even less open than the M13L without being accused of producing thin sounds. If thin sound were intrinsic to tip openings of 1.00 to 1.06 mm or so, no one would be playing on them.
Many players prefer more open facings for a variety of reasons. Many others prefer closer tips. Given well designed internal dimensions and a well-applied facing curve, they are all capable of producing full, resonant, vibrant tone.
If you still like the feel of the M13L but want more resonance, you can improve the sound by examining your technique and making appropriate changes. If you want to try a more open facing, there's no reason not to, but it isn't likely by itself to magically make your sound full and beautiful. You still need to produce an unimpeded, steady, well controlled supply of air to make the reed vibrate well and to form an embouchure that can control without interfering with that vibration.
Karl
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Author: Ed
Date: 2018-12-21 19:39
There are plenty of pros who sound great on the M13L or very similar mouthpieces. I agree that it is worth working on your air, embouchure, etc to see if you can maximize what that set up can do. It may be very enlightening and educational.
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Author: Bob Barnhart ★2017
Date: 2018-12-21 21:04
I would agree with the others who have responded to your inquiry.
However, I would suggest that another dimension to sound production is the resistance you experience and the way that might affect your airstream and sound production/voicing.
I have played on a number of mouthpieces/facings over the years as I try to find the best combination of tone, response, volume and comfort for me. I have played (what I felt were) rather free-blowing mouthpieces (e.g., Vandoren M30, Fobes Europa and CF, Smith Personal, Backun Arabesque), more resistant (e.g., most Vandorens including the M13L/B40/BD5, Ridenour, Backun P+) and those that are middle-of-the road (e.g., Kanter AA, Smith Chedeville 1*).
I find that I prefer the feel of a mouthpiece that is somewhat free-blowing (i.e., it has a bit of working resistance), while allowing me to really blow THROUGH the mouthpiece, rather than just blow INTO it. For example, IMHO, most of the Vandoren mouthpieces feel like they constrict my ability to push air through them.
From another perspective, I would say that a too-resistant mouthpiece tends to lead me into using an "EE" type of voicing, and too-free mouthpiece tends to lead me into an "OO" type of voicing, while something more in between allows me to use an "AH" type of voicing. While (off the top of my head) I would suggest that the "EE" voicing would produce the most intense/focused (and perhaps loudest) airstream, I favor an "AH" voicing more frequently, hence my mouthpiece reed selections.
One other thought... Many times we choose a reed that is too heavy in order to get (what we perceive as) a "darker/warmer" sound. Personally, I believe this approach can be less efficient in generating the kind of tone that can carry the energy to project well, one that is perceived as bigger/louder. Practicing with a less-resistant setup, employing a strong/firm (but non-biting) embouchure, while ensuring a strong/dense/focused airstream and appropriate voicing can produce a bigger/better tone that carries more energy than a more-resistant setup.
Anyway, I hope these considerations will be helpful.
Bob Barnhart
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Author: shmuelyosef
Date: 2018-12-22 09:43
Quote:
Paul Aviles said:
"AND allow your cheeks to puff out"
I'm not a novice (however, sax is my primary wind instrument), but mostly self-taught with occasional lessons. I have always been instructed NOT to let my cheeks puff out...should I reconsider?
Also, I choose reed strength for a given mouthpiece based on getting non-screechy tone on notes at least up to High G, then decide if I like the mouthpiece based on other aspects of play with that strength reed.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2018-12-22 15:37
No, no, no !!!!!
I am trying to describe a practice technique. DO NOT puff out your cheeks for any sort of clarinet playing.
So with your clarinet on its stand, and you just sitting in your chair holding NOTHING, take a deep breath and hold it back at your lips. The reason I have students allow themselves to let their cheeks "go" doing this, is so that they can SEE (in the mirror I force them to look into) AND FEEL the pressure created in the mouth. As you hold back a full tank of air in your mouth, with your cheeks puffed out, you can really feel then what happens when you push more from your gut. Without the "puffed cheek" part, the pressure in your mouth is less evident.
Again, teachers since time immemorial (at least here in the States) have talked about "fast air," "concentrated air column," "cold air," all of which can be helpful imagery BUT the reality of the situation as was discussed in depth in another thread, is that wind instruments don't need.......air to work, they just need an actuator to get the air column in the instrument to vibrate. The actuator is the vibration of the reed and the air pressure differential.
Check out this video......"mind blowing!"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WZvDvuxjHvU
As for reed strength, you would be better served choosing a reed strength based on what allows you to play above a mezzo piano without closing off. You may find your reed strength is stiffer than you need and you are working harder than need be. Even reeds that are way too soft should achieve a clear beautiful tone when played properly.
.....................Paul Aviles
Post Edited (2018-12-22 15:42)
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Author: mmatisoff
Date: 2018-12-23 04:31
When I want a "big" sound, I use my Vandoren B45. Beautiful MP. I also use a Rico Reserve X5 when I want more control but still somewhat full bodied sound. I also play an M13 with my Legere reed.
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Author: KSL
Date: 2018-12-23 05:38
I have been using the VD BD5 with Rue Lepic 56 or V12 reeds 3-31/2 which I like very much. However I recently purchased a couple of VD B40s (traditional). For me, the B40 has a rounder and more focused sound with wonderful overtones. However I have had problems getting a good reed match with the VD V12 or Rue Lepic 56. I switched to the VD Traditional reed (blue box) and was blown away. I use the #3 strength reed which needs adjustment for stiffness and balance. But this combination is amazing. Easy blowing, beautiful round sound, and fast articulation. I have a 1971 R13 with a Moennig barrel. Intonation is spot on.
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Author: fernie121
Date: 2018-12-23 06:23
KSL your comments make me want to revisit the B40. I changed from a B40 to the BD5. Mainly for the better control in the upper register. I do miss the richness in sound the b40 can achieve.
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Author: Bob Barnhart ★2017
Date: 2018-12-23 07:47
KSL, I played the B40 for a couple of years with the Blue Box #3s—a very nice combo. However, I switched to a Kessler-Backun III when the resistance was too much for my level of fitness at the time. I now play a Backun Arabesque with a 4-4.5 Pilgerstorfer Dolce with the K-B III as backup. For me these are even better than the B40.
Still the B40 is a great mouthpiece. Maybe give a Pilgerstorfer Dolce 3.5-4.0 a try—I think the are are a great fit for an open facing.
Bob Barnhart
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2018-12-23 07:52
When they come on the market next month, you may want to try the new D'Addario Evolution mouthpiece with a medium long facing open 1.08 mm at the tip. Available in both "American pitch" and "European pitch" this mouthpiece developed by Richie Hawley may offer many of the same qualities as a Vandoren B40 but with a closer, possibly more controllable facing.
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Author: dorjepismo ★2017
Date: 2018-12-23 07:56
If you want to try a really great "more open" mouthpiece, look at the Fobes Europa 3, or even 4. He promises that with the correct reed (softer than you would use on a close mouthpiece), the sound is "dark and rich." My experience with the 4 is that he delivers on that. The larger opening is combined with a longer facing, which is, indeed, similar to English mouthpieces, anyway.
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Author: GenEric
Date: 2018-12-26 12:57
I tried a couple of open mouthpieces and my sound didn't change that much, so I think I'll be sticking to my M13L. I realized that my embouchure has not fully matured. I'm still trying to do the smile embouchure my old teacher has taught me even though I should be using a more "rubber band" "oo" approach. As a result, my sound is more spread out, thin, and I have air leaking out the sides of my mouth. Looks like the solution to everything is long tones .
Even though this thread is talking about mouthpieces, I'm been trying to push in the sides of the mouth but I end up making my lower lip not as stiff as bunch of after around 10 seconds of playing. Am I missing something? Am I not pushing the sides correctly?
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Author: kdk
Date: 2018-12-26 22:09
GenEric wrote:
> Looks like the solution to
> everything is long tones.
>
The solution is to practice whatever you're working on - carefully. Long tones have one real advantage - they don't tax anything else in your playing so you can concentrate attention on the sound and how you're producing it. They have two main disadvantages - (1) they can easily lull you into boredom so your attention weakens, and (2) they don't account for any of the real-time issues that actual playing throws at you to distract from being careful about basic tone production. IMO (I may be in the minority) playing real music or even rudiments slowly enough that the technical demands don't present obstacles can be at least as useful. Not slowly enough to become a long-tone substitute, but not at full performance tempo, while concentrating on keeping the tone consistent, in tune and resonant.
> Even though this thread is talking about mouthpieces, I'm been
> trying to push in the sides of the mouth but I end up making my
> lower lip not as stiff as bunch of after around 10 seconds of
> playing. Am I missing something? Am I not pushing the sides
> correctly?
You'd be better off not fixating on mechanics like "lower lip not as stiff" or "bunching up" or "pushing the sides." Think of what the embouchure needs to do. It needs to support the reed. It needs to provide a level of control that keeps the tone steady (especially from register to register) while allowing enough vibration to produce a full, resonant tone. It needs to direct the air to the reed.
The reason your "smile" embouchure may not be ideal is that it allows air to escape around the mouthpiece, it stretches the lip, possibly introducing destructive tension, and it can (depending on how you're using it) encourage clamping your jaw shut against the reed, which discourages free, maximal reed vibration. It isn't necessarily the "smile" - it may be how you're applying it. The "rubber-band" approach solves some of these problems - if you apply it in a way that doesn't just introduce new problems.
Problems with embouchure almost always, in my experience, come from overthinking and trying to conform to some set of structural requirements, which much of the time create tension where you least want it while interfering with the reed's basic function - to vibrate.
Your approach to playing should first be guided by your ears. What are you trying to get your playing to sound like, not what are you supposed to be making your embouchure look like.
This can be done using any well-designed mouthpiece. I think you're wise for now to stick with the M13-Lyre.
Karl
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2018-12-27 01:14
So, I tell students to think of taking the "corners" of their mouthes BACK and DOWN (rather than "up and out" =smile, or even "in" which is sorta bunchy). From my perspective you are using your lower lip as a slight buffer between reed and lower teeth. Getting that thinner and flatter allows the reed to vibrate without too much damping. Everything about the embouchure and use of air is a balancing act between those two forces and amongst their constituent parts.
..............Paul Aviles
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Author: fernie121
Date: 2018-12-27 03:17
You don’t want to pull the lower lip down so much that it creates tension at the lower jaw and even throat. That negatively affects air flow as well.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2018-12-27 04:19
I did refer to the "corners," but I don't see how the actions of the upper lip muscles affect anything other than the upper lip muscles. If what you do with your upper lip has any affect whatsoever on the back of your tongue (mislabeled as throat), then you're being inattentive.
.................Paul Aviles
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2018-12-27 06:59
I am NOT a Vandoren fan as the upper register above high C tends to go flat because the M series mouthpieces are too long in length.
A more open mouthpiece does not mean you will obtain a bigger sound. If fact the opposite may happen such as sore lips and cut lower its as well as too much biting.
I would like to see a side view of you playing. A closeup of your embouchure and a fuller shot of the angle of the clarinet. Also a picture of the mouthpiece where the reeds are put on. Maybe there are nicks and scratches and the mouthpiece needs to be addressed.
Vandoren is aware of their mouthpieces playing flat and offer the BD5 442, which tunes to 442. Or you can buy the regular BD5 which tunes to 440, but this would be a mistake as the tip opening is too open at 1.13mm's or more. The tables are also not flat. So people have been sending them to me to be refaced and lower the tip openings down to as low as 1.05mm's. Then I have to make the baffle deeper. But they are now happy.
So send a few pics before you spend any money. Don't think the thin sound is a more open mouthpiece. In fact I'm sure of it. The problem is something else.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
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Author: Max S-D
Date: 2018-12-27 08:55
I know better than to tell anyone else what they should play, but I've had a very positive experience over the last few years moving from very closed tip/hard reed combinations (Fobes CF and V12 #4) to a more open mouthpiece and a softer reed.
I've been experimenting a bit and, of course, it really comes down more to the resistance level of the mouthpiece than the tip opening in isolation, but have been enjoying a more resistant mouthpiece than I used to.
I've lately been playing on a Selmer Concept with a V12 #3. The mouthpiece is only moderately open, but has a resistance level that makes it very comfortable for me to produce a clean, clear, controlled tone with the softer reeds while allowing for nice flexibility in pitch and timbre when I want it.
I've also enjoyed a Vandoren B40 with a softer reed, even going down as low as a Blue Box #2.5. When I was getting my degree, I never would have imagined that it would be possible to get the kind of tone that I liked out of these sorts of combinations, but here we are. I think it's been the culmination of many years of working on unlearning my severe biting issues that I used to have. Based on some of what I have read, Brad Behn's mouthpieces are designed to be paired with softer reeds and I'm curious to try them, but will probably hold off, since I've been spending a bit too much time and money trying mouthpieces lately.
I pulled out my CF and some hard reeds last weekend just for reference. That is still a great mouthpiece and a wonderful setup, but I don't feel like I have the timbral or dynamic control that I am getting now.
There's a limit for me, though. I have a Vandoren 5JB that I pull out periodically because I think it's interesting, but it does start to get towards a sound that is less focused and a lot "fuzzier" across the instrument. I use a #2 reed with it and it plays fine, but it's not to my taste. It's loud, though!
On bass clarinet, I love the Selmer Concept, Vandoren B50 and a Fobes that is open like those two. I don't think I will ever go back to a more closed mouthpiece there and if someone knows of a more open mouthpiece on the bass clarinet, I'd be curious to know how far I could comfortably go there.
For what it's worth, I play with the "corners" of my embouchure in. My lower lip is generally not pulled taut when I play, but I am not sure if that is a function of the fact that I have fuller/thicker lips than some. My main focus is to think about just using a very light touch, just enough pressure to not blow my lips off the mouthpiece. On the other hand, I'm a reformed biter, so maybe I'm not as gentle as I think I am!
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Author: Mojo
Date: 2018-12-27 18:58
On BC, a Bay MOM I have measured plays well at 2.08mm=.082”. I have played up to .093” tips on bass clarinnet for big band doubling. But they do not articulate or sound well for classical playing. I prefer a .076” Fobes lately for wind ensemble.
MojoMP.com
Mojo Mouthpiece Work LLC
MojoMouthpieceWork@yahoo.com
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