 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2001-06-20 15:31
On another thread about wooden mouthpieces Gregory Smith mentioned he doesn't oil his wooden mouthpieces, nor does he oil his clarinets. I'm hoping he's still around the board and will elaborate a bit on this. If not, perhaps others could comment on this subject.
I live in Texas where it's very hot and dry in the summer and very cold in the winter.
I've always oiled the bore of my clarinets because I felt they would dry out too much if I did not. But, I've heard that you don't have to oil Buffet R-13s. Greg and others, is this true?
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Author: Bill
Date: 2001-06-20 16:56
I may be wrong, but the primary purpose of oiling is to prevent the penetration of moisture into the wood. I think regular playing, and swabbing is the key to maintaining the moisture requirements needed to prevent cracking. I'm only addressing moisture and oiling, and not other factors that may contribute to cracking.
I see nothing in the Buffet care instructions about oiling, and Han Moennig's instructions on care say that it is unecessary to oil the wood to prevent cracks, but may be used to keep water from entering the tone holes. He also states that most players, if not all good ones, say that oiling deadens the tone of the instrument.
So, oiling may be doing the opposite of what you want in hot, dry weather.
"Incoming - Duck and Cover "
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Author: jbutler
Date: 2001-06-20 17:30
Search for threads by "The Doctor" on this subject. This discussion has come up several times and probably will come up several times more. I believe one good one was titled "Wax On/Wax Off" which also talked about using wax on the outside of the clarinet. FWIW I believe in oiling bores during the overhaul process and THEN whenever the wood needs it by powers of observation!
John
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2001-06-20 18:29
Dear All,
I do not know exactly what Gregory Smith is quoted as saying. I have the utmost respect for him as a fine musician and excellent mouthpiece maker but I must come down on the side of oiling wood. As noted we have had long discussions on the BB about oiling and what to use - you should spend the time to read these threads and make your own decisions. A recent addtition to the Sponsor's Page - Larry Naylor has written extensively about the subject and has an article on his page concerning the environmental effects on wood. I have a different formulation of oils, emulsifiers and antioxidants than Larry but that too is your choice. Newly manufactured clarinets from the major makers probably do not need to be oiled (as I believe Buffet suggests) because they have been extensively treated with plant oil in the aging and wood stabilization phase of production (since they are plant oils they will not last forever without renewal however). Moisture balance in the wood is an important factor in the resonance of the instrument. Certain plant derived oils have hydorphilic (water attracting properties) which act as a selective reservoir for water - retaining controlled amounts of moisture (otherwise the plant kingdom would not exist) but not allowing the wood to soak up excess water. Water is both the enemy and friend to wood, too much water can exert massive hydrostatic pressures on the internal structure of wood, as well as drying can remove the water and create similar but opposite pressures. The interior of the bore is a very hostile environment for any wood and my choice would be to use oil to preserve the wood and maintain a stable level of wood hydration. I keep coming back to history as a teaching model - wood artifacts (including ebony, grenadilla wood) have been preserved for 1000's of years (as can be seen in major museums) using natural oil formulations, even when stored in wet, or arid, parts of the world. Historical research, reccommendations from wood curators at the world's major museusms, and natural product, and natural oil chemistry, are the basis of the formulation of the oils that I use. Use knowledge as the basis to make your decisions !!!!!
The Doctor
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Author: Gregory Smith
Date: 2001-06-21 16:52
In reference to posts about hardwood mouthpieces that I made in another thread, this is what I've found to be true about them (in my experience):
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Hardwood mouthpieces should either be oiled consistently or not at all. The "burr" of the hardwood will raise with the application of oil. If you start and stop the oil, the burr of the hardwood will raise and lower effecting the feel and response of the mouthpiece (but not necessarily the measurements).
In regards to hardwood mouthpieces, the best indicator as to it's future stability - especially in the facing - is not only the inherent quality of the hardwood itself but how long the hardwood has been aged before manufacture. Anything under 20 years will probably cause problems by way of change in the feel and response of the mouthpiece.
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The burr refers to the behaivor of the grain of the hardwood as it is effected by oil. The grain will raise minutely, almost microscopically when oil is applied. Of course this change is much more consequential when applied to a surface on which a thin piece of cane is vibrating. It effects the texture of the surface, not the measurement of the facing.
That is why it is desireable for the sake of consistency to oil a hardwood mouthpiece every few days or alternatively, not at all. (Incidentally I do not apply any oil to my own personal hardwood mouthpiece nor do I oil my clarinets).
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Yes, moisture raises the burr - but consistently because it is always present when being played. The point I was attempting to make was that one has to be consistent if oiling - just like one is consistent when exposing the hardwood to moisture.
G Smith
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2001-06-21 19:12
Dear Greg and all,
Thanks for sharing your insight and experience on wooden mouthpieces. I had the pleasure to see one of your's just the other day and it is a superb quality piece of wood (they wouldn't let me play it though). If only we were able to get complete clarinets with this quality and aging of the wood it would be great but probably outlandishly expensive! You point out a very interesting phenomenon which I will have to investigate - the burr, texture, roughness, whatever of the wood surface after oiling and the time course of these effects (this could affect the air flow pattern or other paramteters). One thing that I caution all of us to consider is that oil is not a specific, but generic term, and various formulations and mixtures of various oils and/or oils with stabilizers and antioxidants may have varying effects on many aspects of the wood. I have tried to use a scientific approach to quantitate these parameters in many cases. Among the myths that I feel that I have debunked is that "oil" will not penetrate deeply into the wood - I have fluorescent micrographs of my own oil mixture tagged with fluorescent marker applied to aged grenadilla wood that shows deep pentetration - this may or may not be true of other oils or oil mixtures (after going back to the micrographs to look at the exposed surface of the wood I could not detect any changes in texture, but this requires a new set of experiments). You are the maker of the mouthpieces and know best their performance, characteristics, and care requirements.
The Doctor
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2001-06-21 20:12
Greg's mouthpieces are absolutely beautiful. I wish I could share a photo of the ones I bought from him. The grain in them is magnificent. AND, best of all, they sound magnificent!
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Author: Warren Herron
Date: 2001-06-22 07:35
Hello everyone, I'm new to the clarinet as a player, but have been messing with the flute for a while and remember noticing on several web pages of fine wood flute manufacturers that they recommend using a bore oil of almond oil mixed with vitamin E (in order to keep it from going rancid). These are well known craftsmen and they are making their flutes from grenadilla wood among others. Just wondered if anybody had any info on this mix. No ratio was given of the one to the other, but it was mentioned that almond oil (not to be confused with almond extract) is fine enough to penetrate quite deeply into the wood and has the benefit of being non-toxic.. Any comments? I also remember a comment on one page in which the author stated that another benefit of using bore oil was to give a smoother surface to the bore which he believed improved the sound. Best wishes --- Warren
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2001-06-22 11:22
Dear Warren,
We have just recently had a topic on almond oil used as bore oil - quite extensive, check out the threads. The flute players are a very knowledgable group and using almond oil with antioxidants is better than the mineral oil - bore oil sold in the stores but there have been more recent improvements and technology that IMHO dictates a mixture of plant oils, and antioxidants that are superior to Vitamin E.
The Doctor
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Author: Mark Pinner
Date: 2001-06-22 13:13
from a repairerers point of view oil the bore. If you dont like petroleum products use something like sweet almond or linseed.
Dont you Yanks oil you baseball bats. Cricket bats are often oiled with linseed. Good too for cholestorol I believe.
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2001-06-22 14:05
Dear Mark,
We have had discussions about linseed oil in the past too. It is one of the original polymer forming wood treatments. The crosslinking takes a while but it essentially seals the wood (in my view clogs the pores and fine tubules of the wood structure) and does not allow for moisture transfer. I defer to the knowledge and experience of the great repair persons that post on the board in most instances but not on instrument wood treatment and preservation. I have studied this area for many years now and apply the latest technology in testing and formulation of oils, emulsifiers, and phyto antioxidants to instrument wood treatment. IMHO linseed oil is not good to use on the bore of woodwind instruments - great for cricket bats though!
The Doctor
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2001-06-22 15:42
To our flute friend: I owned a grenadilla wood Irish whistle that was quite wonderful (gave it to a friend for her birthday). It was hand made and sounded very, very nice. I have another friend (wow, 2 friends) who owns a grenadilla wood flute with silver keys and she tells me there is no way to describe the beauty of its tone. If you find one, get it.
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Author: Warren Herron
Date: 2001-06-23 06:02
Thanks for the tips... I'll check the threads when I get a chance... Yes, wooden flutes have a very different tone from the metal ones... They can be very beautiful sounding instruments... I've been very intrigued by some of the middle eastern flutes... The Turkish Ney has an amazingly haunting quality to it if you ever get the chance to hear one... I believe that Kudsi Erguner played the Ney on Peter Gabriel's, "Passion," album (which is an absolutely extraordinary album) and he is a master of that instrument. It is a cane flute which dates back to ancient Egyptian times (at least) and there are variations of this flute played throughout the middle east... The materials in instruments really make an incredible difference in timbre... Though some swear that the modern synthetics are just as good, I have to question their hearing... Certainly they are better than a poor organic instrument, but they cannot touch the sound of a quality organic instrument - the harmonics are so consistent they just sound boring by comparison - a case of being too perfect perhaps? (My personal opinion, of course). Best, Warren
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2001-06-23 16:43
Bill, your flute was beautiful. Too bad I didn't know you had it. I would have traded you that new LL plus the Kaspar mouthpiece I just sold. But, alas----.
Is that why your email address starts with feadog?
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Author: Bill
Date: 2001-06-23 17:07
Brenda: Yes, that's where the feadog comes from. I was pleasantly surprised that the bidding went so high. I have the keyed section on order with about 3 mores years before it's ready. I'll have to order a head and foot to go with it.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2001-06-24 02:48
Wooden flutes, I understand, sound different largely because of the deeper walls of the tone holes, and the restricitons in shaping the embouchure hole area (for example modern silver flutes usually have the 'trailing' side of the embouchure plate sloping steeply away from the embouchure hole) etc, and the repercusions of such things.
The material itself may not be very relevant.
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2001-06-25 14:06
I think the material has something to do with the sound. I know different clarinets with different woods (grenadilla or rosewood) sound different even if they have identical acousic qualities (such as the Opus and the Symphonie VII). The Opus and Symphonie VII are both made by Leblanc and both top of the line models and both have the same acoustic design. Yet, they are very different in tone color. Why? Because of the different wood. That's why people use different woods--for different tone color.
Metal clarinets sound different to wood clarinets. Wood and metal make different sound colors. Although the design also changes things, as Gordon said.
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