 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Windy Dreamer
Date: 2018-11-27 19:21
While I am sensitive to high frequency tones I am not unusual.In large group settings I am far from the first to be agonized by high frequency tones that injure a third or more of an audience.
During the past 24 hours I have been shocked by the numbers of hearing disorders diagnosed among symphony artists.As I suspected ,violin players seem to be the worst afflicted in some studies.Leading my shock was the assertion that in many settings , symphony players were worse off than hard rock and heavy metal players.
While there is much more information on auditory disorders than even 2 to to 5 years ago I saw no studies that touched on the role of high frequency tones in creating auditory disorders.This is a factor that ought to be investigated and discussed if I am correct that narrow high pitched tones cause both immediate and long term suffering.
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Author: Knowles
Date: 2018-11-27 19:46
What sources are you looking at to find this information? I would appreciate the chance to look at them, if you can post links to them - your assertions are pretty counterintuitive to me.
Kurt
Music Ed., WP
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2018-11-27 20:41
I find this interesting and I would like to know more. I, however, suffer from the typical tinnitus. Until recently I would get an occasional random pitch that would manifest itself for about 30 seconds blocking out other sounds, then disappear. In the last few months I now have a permanent high "D" in my right ear, but I can habituate to it as the day goes on.
With all that though I am not particularly pain sensitive to high frequencies. I do however have an effect with high decibel levels so that at some point along the dynamic scale I cannot distinguish tone center (the source.....usually a live pop show, comes off sounding more like it's being played in whole tone scales). I was told that this is not uncommon.
I got here playing in military bands for many years. Two years of which we had rehearsals facilities that were equivalent to playing in a bathroom but the bands never tempered their dynamics for the situation at all.
.................Paul Aviles
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Author: Windy Dreamer
Date: 2018-11-27 21:41
Hi Paul
Yesterday I was surprised to learn there is sound therapy for tinnitis. It involves soft soothing rolling notes that allegedly retrain the ear.Over the past few years I have noticed much improvement to my tinnitis.I now attribute that to my style of clarinet playing.( I started playing clarinet about 6 years ago.)I roll my notes for artistic effect and spend almost all my time within the notes of the ring keys. During the past month I have noticed that rolling high frequency notes do not irritate. Agony is most often provoked by longer high frequency notes played with knife edge precision. I wonder if sound therapy with rolling high frequency notes might be of benefit to people with sensitivity to high frequency tones.It would be interesting to hear from people that benefited from musical sound therapy.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2018-11-27 21:54
Windy Dreamer wrote:
> While I am sensitive to high frequency tones I am not
> unusual.In large group settings I am far from the first to be
> agonized by high frequency tones that injure a third or more
> of an audience.
You're talking about a third of audience members and studies being performed. Rather than talk about your understanding of the studies (violin players have a big problem? ) please post links to such studies so we can be educated by then first- hand
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2018-11-27 21:59
Windy Dreamer wrote:
> Hi Paul
> Yesterday I was surprised to learn there is sound therapy
Again, for the benefit of those suffering from tinnitus, post links to research. Last time I looked (albeit years ago) a few companies made claims akin to promoting snake oil.
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Author: Windy Dreamer
Date: 2018-11-28 00:29
Sorry Mark
A good place to start would be " Highway to hearing hell : musicians and the danger of deafness. " by Trevor Cox of Salford University. It is posted at The conversatio.com. That article has many clickable links to classical and symphonic studies. In one paragragh there is a link to 5 studies showing hearing loss in up to 58 % of classical musicians. In a following sentence there is a link to hearing loss in less than 50 % of rock and pop musicians.
That is one of many articles that suggest that classical musicians may be at greater risk than rock musicians.
Both yesterday and today I am disappointed that I can find no reference to the dangers of narrowly focused razor sharp tones It seems that most research is decibel obsessed while ignorant of the impact of digital analyzer inspired narrow pricise tones.I am convinced that repetitve exposure to narrow precise tones is itself a major risk factor equal to or greater than high decibel exposure.That belief is based upon personal experience and group observation.
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2018-11-28 00:47
"Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2018-11-27 20:41
I find this interesting and I would like to know more. I, however, suffer from the typical tinnitus. Until recently I would get an occasional random pitch that would manifest itself for about 30 seconds blocking out other sounds, then disappear. In the last few months I now have a permanent high "D" in my right ear, but I can habituate to it as the day goes on. "
Paul,
I had a problem with tinnitus until I discovered that some anti-inflammatory drugs used in the treatment of arthritis have tinnitus as a side effect. Changing to Celebrex eliminated the tinnitus while still controlling the inflammation.
Tony F.
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2018-11-28 00:58
Well, I think the sky is not falling for symphony pros but it probably has fallen for many rock players mainly because of the big speaker systems and high decibel amplification.
J.H. Schmidt et al in a 2014 study on hearing loss in symphony musicians concluded "Most of the symphony orchestra musicians had better hearing than expected..." That's hardly cause for alarm.
Google the following to read the study: J. H. Schmidt Hearing Loss in Relation to Sound Exposure of Professional Symphony Orchestra Musicians.
Schmidt did complete another study this year on tinnitus among symphony players that could be more cause for concern. Google: J. H. Schmidt Tinnitus Severity is Related to the Sound Exposure of Symphony Orchestra Musicians.
(That's exposure over a lifetime).
Post Edited (2018-11-28 01:08)
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2018-11-28 01:42
Windy Reamer,
Above, you said:
"I am convinced that repetitve exposure to narrow precise tones is itself a major risk factor equal to or greater than high decibel exposure.That belief is based upon personal experience and group observation."
Concerning your personal experience, what data do you have to support this belief? Also, what group or groups have you observed and what data do you have to support this claim? Without some sort of hypothesis (null or research) and a data gathering or systematic testing paradigm, there is no validity or reliability to your assertions.
HRL
Post Edited (2018-11-28 02:03)
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Author: Windy Dreamer
Date: 2018-11-28 02:11
JH Schmidt is the only author I found that suggested symphony players were no worse off than the general population.
I assume that he is Jesper Hvass Schmidt Ph.D of Odense University Hospital , Denmark. Suspecting that his studies may reflect regional anomalies I reviewed excerpts of Danish Symphonic performances. There style of play is like no other I have heard to date. They definitely roll their notes with art and style.Even their violins were without injury to my sensitive ears. If what I heard today is representative of Danish Symphonic performance as a whole then I would not be surprised that their musicians are no worse off than the general populace.The Danes may soon replace the Berliners as my favorite symphonic performers.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2018-11-28 02:26
Ok, as usual I have not done any specific research yet, BUT........
I do know that you can experience 150dB or more standing near an airplane turbine OR taking two coke bottles and clacking them together next to your ear. There definitely IS a connection to higher frequencies having more energy.
Also, as far as classical musicians go, the Chicago Symphony started placing plexiglass shields between their strings and brass under Solti in the 80's. I believe I saw that set up as recently as last year.
Lastly I recall we had a particularly boisterous piccolo player in one of my bands who wound up to my immediate left at a cut down band gig one day. I remember that he hit some note at the end of a march that caused a rather excruciating sensation in my left my ear that left it sore for the remainder of the day.
Lesson learned. Don't sit to the right of piccolo players.
.................Paul Aviles
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Author: Bennett ★2017
Date: 2018-11-28 02:43
If it is true that symphonic musicians have more ear problems that rock musicians, (seems doubtful at the very least), it is probably because they are older and have been playing for far more years than rockers. Noise damage to ears is cumulative.
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2018-11-28 02:50
Another study published this year looked at musicians from the National Ballet Orchestra of CANADA and concluded that "because exposure levels were consistently below 85 dBA and changes in audiometric thresholds were minimal we conclude that [the] musicians experienced little or no risk of noise-induced hearing loss."
Google the following to read this one: Alberto Dehar, Marshall Chasin, et al. "Noise Exposure and Hearing Loss in Classical Orchestra Musicians."
Still another study published in 2018--Heiner Genbris et al., Health Problems of Orchestral Musicians from a Life-Span Perspective"--states that "Overall research into music-induced hearing loss in professional [orchestral] musicians remains heterogeneous and unclear."
Post Edited (2018-11-28 03:18)
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Author: Windy Dreamer
Date: 2018-11-28 06:11
Hi Paul
It is interesting that you brought up the piccolo.Normally they terrify me almost as much as the violin. Despite my fear of them I spent half an hour listening to one played loudly on a subway staircase landing . I sat about 8 feet away without fear.
The player was severely mobility and dexterity impaired. A few years before he concluded Canada needed more appropriate live music in public places and he needed more than Canadian disability support.He decided to become a busquer. He spent one year studying music and musical instruments.During that time he also addressed every musical issue that concerns me, including high frequency tone sensitivity.He spent the following year learning to play. He chose an 18th century piccolo due to its lower upper range and ease of play for him. His entire repertoire is comprised of a single 12th century composition that is virtually unknown and takes over 20 minutes to play.He chose it to silence cruel critics that cannot criticise his performance because they have no standard to compare it to and because most listeners dont linger that long. In our discussion he pointed out his belief that no compostion or instrument is injurious of itself to the tone sensitive listener. Injury results from art and style of play or the lack of it.His beliefs were verified by my ability to wholly enjoy his performance for half an hour.
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Author: Windy Dreamer
Date: 2018-11-28 08:33
Hi Seabreeze
Yesterday I was confused by all the conflicting numbers put forward by authors.After a days reflection I conclude that the widely divergent numbers reflect differences in art and style of play of different study groups.
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Author: monnarush
Date: 2018-11-28 17:29
Just a thought to see if anyone has experienced this. Have you ever been under water in the river and smacked two rocks together? It hurts like crazy! Just wondered if anyone else has had this experience.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2018-11-28 19:45
That sounds correct. Water is a better conductor of sound than air.
..............Paul Aviles
Post Edited (2018-11-28 21:10)
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Author: marcia
Date: 2018-11-28 21:28
A professional bassoonist once told me that the members of the orchestra in which she played had periodic hearing tests. The piccolo player always had the best hearing because--the piccolo player always wore earplugs.
And I can already hear the protests about earplugs making it difficult to hear yourself and others properly. But we only get one pair of ears!
Just sayin'...…
Marcia
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2018-11-28 23:02
Yeah there has been a recent (last 10yrs or so) push for all the military bands to provide Musician's Earplugs to all its members. They are supposed to be more frequency forgiving and allow the best auditory experience while providing protection.
however........
If you ever used any earplugs while playing, the first and most irritating thing you'll notice is that you hear (feel?) the sound that transmits through your bones. That is the buzzy, none timbral sound. In addition you can pretty much forget about any sort of sensitivity to playing in response to what is going on around you outside of gross time and pitch (and even pitch starts to get dicey).
...............Paul Aviles
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Author: Windy Dreamer
Date: 2018-11-29 04:35
While watching community news there are often short symphony excerpts. Many of the players are wearing discreet headsets with wires leading beneath their jackets.When the cameras zoom in you can see the musicians doing something with them beneath their jackets when they are not playing.With all the fidgeting it seems they may be switching channels or tuning channels.They are definitely doing more than just adjusting volume. I am assuming that the devices may be protective while allowing the wearers to tune into different sections of the symphony. I have asked a few musicians about this . They say they have noticed them as well but have no idea what they are. Might they be multi channel protective equipment that allow players to tune into different areas of the symphony ?
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