 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: bassclgirl92
Date: 2018-11-25 20:53
Not really understanding mouthpiece facing and tip openings. For instance, where does a tip opening of 1.70 mm fall? Is this considered very open? What does a length of 24 mm mean? A friend recently purchased a Clark Fobes Debut mouthpiece and her #3 Rico Grand Concert reed doesn't seem to be a good fit.
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Author: Ken Lagace
Date: 2018-11-25 21:52
There are no rules what the limits can be and yes, a reed must work with the facing at hand.
In general;
0.94 Very Close
0.97
0.99 Close
1.02
1.04 Med Close
1.07
1.09 Medium
1.12
1.14 Med Open
1.17
1.19 Open
1.22
1.24 Very open
1.27
1.30 Extreme
Facing Lengths may be 12-30mm although I have always worked between 20 and 27.
A more open facing needs a softer tip and a longer length facing needs a softer spine, and Visa/Versa. This is basic physics.
But also, this is just a starting point. The shape of the spine needs to be compatible with the shape of the facing for best results and whatever a player wants to feel and sound like.
I have measurements for the slopes of 20 reed brands/types and they are all different! If you try all the strengths of all 20 reeds, one will be the best for your setup and your playing enjoyment at least for now.
Then you will change and have to do the process all over. :=)
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Author: fernie121
Date: 2018-11-25 23:27
Ken, you mind sharing any mouthpiece reed combos that work very well?
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2018-11-25 23:47
A good "work horse" mouthpiece is about 1.04 mm open and about 18mm long (sorta medium close).
As the tip opening gets larger the reed requires more air to vibrate although I feel a lot of players use that space to have the ability squeeze down on the reed altering that space and resistance.
What happens with the the length of facing is best illustrated by taking a wooden ruler and holding it down so that a good portion extends off the edge of a desk. Strum it. You get a certain "tone" caused by how much it vibrates. Now draw it back so that a little less extends off the desk. Strum it again. The "tone" is higher and it vibrates faster for less time. That is what happens when you shorten the length of lay on a mouthpiece.
So you have interesting combinations of more open tips with longer lays that basically equal the resistance of smaller openings with shorter lays. It does however all change feel and response from one to the other.
To make things a bit more confusing, the German mouthpiece (quite a bit different from a Boehm mouthpiece) is typically a very small tip opening of 1.00mm or less and typically 25.00 mm long or more and they use fairly soft reeds of strength 2 1/2. The 2 1/2 German reed is closer to our #3 but their approach to play and the acoustic model of the German clarinet also play a part in that equation.
..................Paul Aviles
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2018-11-26 00:20
Ken Lagace wrote:
> Facing Lengths may be 12-30mm although I have always worked
> between 20 and 27.
>
This surprises me a little, Ken. Are you using French (Boehm) style mouthpieces or German?
For the OP's benefit, my experience is that most French-style mouthpieces have curve lengths of 15-19 or 20 mm (there are certainly outliers, chosen by or made for individual players). The length is measured by holding the facing against a piece of flat glass (usually one marked in mm increments), lining up the zero marking on the glass with mouthpiece tip, sliding a thin feeler gauge - usually, by custom, .0015" - between the mouthpiece, and seeing how far from the tip (using the markings) the feeler stops. Obviously, if you measure this with a different feeler you'll see a different result. So, when someone tells you a facing is xx mm, you really need to know what thickness gauge was being used.
Karl
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Author: Ken Lagace
Date: 2018-11-26 00:54
I use and reface French-style mouthpieces.
I should have clarified that these were 0.001 measurements.
A more accurate range using the 0.015 thickness is a virgin (for me) Chedeville with a 17mm length and another virgin Backun Morales at 24mm.
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Author: Ken Lagace
Date: 2018-11-26 01:20
fernie121
>>you mind sharing any mouthpiece reed combos that work very well?
That would be pretty useless for you. Every player has a different combination of mouth cavity size, overbite/underbite distance, lower lip thickness, side muscle strength, air pressure capability, hearing sensitivity and other differences that preclude a good answer.
If you want to get the best reed for your mouthpiece, get a bunch of like minded players together and buy a range of reeds and share them around. For not passing germs, I use the original golden color Listerine and soak them for 5-10 seconds and rinse.
A better approach is to get the best reeds and then find a mouthpiece that fits them. By 'best' I mean the best (long lasting and lively) cane, and the most consistent cut out of the box so you can use maybe 8 out of 10 instead of 3 out of 10 from a box. My experience has found that reeds that most follow these parameters are the Behn Arias, Peter Leuthner and Pilgerstorfer and maybe the Steuers. Vandorens are consistent but the cane doesn't last. The first two also act better in the dry winter climes because they don't swell (rock back and forth on a flat surface) as easily as the others on the list. I grew up in New England and live in Pennsylvania now and have done many experiments on swell prevention in the winter.
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2018-11-26 03:42
The original post is likely referring to bass clarinet. 1.70 mm opening is medium. 1.80, 1.90, 2.00 also
work.
Freelance woodwind performer
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2018-11-26 03:48
24 mm facing length is the distance between where the reed begins to separate from the mouthpiece to the tip of the mouthpiece. Traditionally this expressed by doubling the number. Facing length of 24 mm would be a facing length of 48.
Freelance woodwind performer
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Author: monnarush
Date: 2018-11-26 18:29
ED Thanks for the links you posted! I will be exploring these sites immediately as I am in need of understanding all this information.
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Author: vintschevski
Date: 2018-11-27 03:07
Paul makes a distinction between Boehm mouthpieces and German mouthpieces, which is totally reasonable. I see, however, that Vytas Krass (for one) offers a German-style mouthpiece which "combines the French and German styles into one". To quote further from his description: "On the outside, it looks like a Boehm (French) mouthpiece, but the interior is an Oehler (German). Hand-crafted from a hard-rubber blank, it features a very deep German style baffle." Mr Krass does not make any recommendation for what sort of reeds would work best on this particular style of mouthpiece. He gives the tip-opening as 1.03 and the length as "medium".
Have you possibly tried this Krass German-concept mouthpiece, Paul?
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2018-11-27 08:28
Hey vintschevski,
I cannot speak to that mouthpiece, I never saw one. It's a little hard to for me to imagine exactly what the hybrid description means. A German mouthpiece has a thinner circumference than Boehm but it is just slightly longer. The tone chamber doesn't taper very much at all, so when you look up the bottom end of a German mouthpiece it looks almost as if the bore continues straight out.
I also do not know to what he is referring when he speaks of a "deep German baffle." I had a good sit down with Walter Grabner who showed me that there is a finite measurement from the bottom of the window measuring from the table level down to the how deep the baffle can be (apparently if this is too deep the mouthpiece just sounds flaccid). If that is what Mr. Krass is talking about, I can say that this particular dimension is actually quite a bit SHALLOWER on my Wurlitzers and Viotto than Vandoren (perhaps as much as 3.00mm !!!).
Without having a Krass on hand though I don't want to comment further.
..............Paul Aviles
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Author: graham
Date: 2018-11-27 23:39
1.7 is medium to close. But a lot depends on the curve.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2018-11-27 23:55
Dear 'graham,'
We are talking about BASS CLARINET mouthpieces correct?
I apologize for my soprano centeredness. I did not see "bass" specified in the original post, but I do see those measurements for the Debut Bass clarinet mouthpiece on Clark Fobes' website.
Sorry for the confusion!
................Paul Aviles
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Author: NBeaty
Date: 2018-11-29 20:46
For bass clarinet, 1.70mm is a standard medium close tip opening (used on Selmer C*'s and many others). The 24mm is the facing length, the point at which the mouthpiece starts to curve away from the reed/table. In the mouthpiece world, the facing length (and other points measured on the curve) are measured in half millimeters, making 24mm a measurement of "48", which is a medium long facing.
This is a very standard/traditional facing for bass clarinet that generally lends itself to a comfortable blow through and response. The Bb equivalent would be a Vandoren M13 Lyre/M15 or D'Addario X0/X5.
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2018-12-01 04:22
I really think after a few years after starting the clarinet I used no.5 reeds for a long time and balanced them on a 2rv and then later a 5rv lyre in the late 70s. I used a herder knife and got pretty good at it..i also used dutch rush to balance...in those day we only had a few channels on tv and no internet...so clarinet players were not in such a rush! haha
I now use 3 and 3.5 reeds which again are balanced..yes I use a reed knife and dutch rush and even practice on legere reeds too!
so a hard reed is really not my piece of cake. Over the years..and I mean 30 or so playing years Vandoren 4s today are about same as the the old 5 s or so.
Now I am firmly an advocate of lighter reeds and a lighter set up because at the end of the day you have other things to do rather than recover from playing on popsickle sticks....German mouthpieces do not mean harder reeds..it means matching the reeds to your style of blowing etc. al....for some reason this myth of hard reeds better sound persists..clarinet players hold on to myths for some reason. I do like the V21 but some of them are quite hard for their number...
David Dow
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2018-12-01 16:50
As counterintuitive as it may sound the standard way to go with German style playing is SOFT reeds. Without the benefit of correct instruction I went down the harder and harder reed path on Wurlitzers until I just gave up. Years later I learned the correct approach and know now what to do if I ever play Oehler again.
.................Paul Aviles.
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