 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Windy Dreamer
Date: 2018-11-16 21:40
See Portnoy " The Embouchure and Tone Color".
This is a truly fascinating and inspirational short article.
During the 5 to 6 years I have played clarinet I have vested all my energy into color with no consideration of the frequency precision of tone. Most of the students I speak with are entirely opposite , vesting all their energy into attempting to maintain perfect frequency of tone throughout the duration of a note.The last student I spoke with plays with a digital analyzer mounted on her clarinet as she plays with her student orchestra. A few weeks ago I spoke with another student that keeps her analizer more discreetly on her lap while she plays in orchestral settings.To these type of students color and character of tone are meaningless. I often wonder what kind of teacher could tolerate such nonsense.
In the article Portnoy asserts " many players take in too much lip ". He continues with the assertion that with minimal lip a player could master greater control of color. Given that color and character of tone are of utmost importance to me I assessed how much lip I take in and attempted to play with the most minimal lip possible.I do take in a lot of lip. It would not be possible to take in more. With minimal lip it took almost 10 minutes to produce a single short tone.A few hours later I could almost play the notes of the ring keys.The experiment looks promising with tones that are much broader and richer than I have ever produced before. Unfortunately my highly reworked reeds are much to soft . Pursueing minimal lip would mean that I would have to learn to play almost from scratch with a wholly different reed technology.
Is minimal lip really the key to mastery of color and character of tone ? Do most modern teachers even care about color and character of tone ? Based on my short experiment it is tempting to abandon maximal lip in favor of minimal lip.I do not think it is possible to play both ways. The groove in my lip formed from past method of play is a real barrier that is rapidly breaking down with the attempt to play minimally.Loss of that groove would make it impossible to play as I have up until now.
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2018-11-17 00:03
While you're at it, why not also try pulling a little of your upper lip over the upper teeth to try double lip embouchure? When the chalumeau and 5-key boxwood clarinets were the standard everybody played double lip. But they also played with the mouthpiece in what is today thought of as an"upside down" position, with the reed pressing against the upper lip. Many early clarinetists were recruited from the ranks of oboists, and they most likely protected the upper lip from pressure cuts by a tooth covering (as many do today).
Some video introductions for double lip playing to watch:
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=Morales+Clarinet+Embouchure
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=Clarinet+Mentors+Lesson+Double+Lip+Embouchure
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=William+Ridenour+How+to+Play+Double+Lip+Embouchure.
The last one is in three parts. Ridenour studied with Kal Opperman who learned double lip from Ralph McLane, as did Harold Wright. There is also an old issue of Clarinet that features an article on that technique by McLane that you might like to read. It makes a nice complement to the Portnoy article.
Some excellent players such as Mitchell Lurie and Tony Pay have said they never played double lip because they had sharp upper teeth or a short upper lip. So it is hardly necessary, but many have found that it adds color to the tone.
Post Edited (2018-11-17 06:49)
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2018-11-17 00:48
Windy Dreamer wrote:
> Is minimal lip really the key to mastery of color and character
> of tone ?
1st of all, what actual wording did he use to describe what "minimal lip" means? Where and when was the article published (could we access it somehow)? What do *you* mean by "minimal?"
> Do most modern teachers even care about color and
> character of tone ?
Yes, among other things.
> Based on my short experiment it is tempting
> to abandon maximal lip in favor of minimal lip.I do not think
> it is possible to play both ways.
I can't imagine, either, that you take in both a lot and nearly no lip at the same time. But on a more practical track, is there not a middle ground, where you aren't swallowing your lip down to your chin but are using enough to cushion the reed?
You might use your ears to judge the *most appropriate* amount of lip to take in *for you.* Teachers make recommendations (or should) based on the needs of the individual student they're working with. A good teacher listens, diagnoses the student's strengths and weaknesses, and then offers solutions to problems that underlie the weaknesses and ways to maximize the strengths.
BTW, the student with the tuner in her lap or clipped to her clarinet while she plays is misguided. These players aren't "in tune" with anything except the pitch standard. While they're staring at the tuner's display they aren't paying attention to the music, the conductor or the other players in the ensemble. A player needs to be in tune with the existing musical environment - the other players - in real time.
Karl
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Author: Ken Lagace
Date: 2018-11-17 01:43
>>A player needs to be in tune with the existing musical environment - the other players - in real time.
And...how does she know which pitch the tuner is listening to?
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2018-11-17 03:28
About pitch. I can speak only of "mid-fi" professional groups since I've never played with the CSO, but I would imagine that reality is just more refined.
Pitch is "in the moment" and also section to section or even individual to individual. Once you've established the paradigm (the tuning note at the beginning of rehearsal or performance) it is up to everyone to continually adjust to each other. So perhaps if you have a solo moment as principal, you can reign in the pitch with the help of electronics (if that's your preference). Usually though as one without the gift (or curse) of perfect pitch, I prefer to abandon the tuner altogether once the train has left the station.
..................Paul Aviles
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Author: Jarmo Hyvakko
Date: 2018-11-17 10:53
Lower lip: how about this definition: it's important that your teeth are below the lip, not the skin down from the lip? This because you need your lip muscles to form your enbouchure. If your lip is inside your mouth you can't use your lower lip.
Double lip: The most important thing is, that you actively use your upper lip muscles. Test this: are you able to waggle the mouthpiece left to right while you play? If not, your teeth touch the mouthpiece too strong, in other words you bite the mouthpiece. The biggest advantage in double lip is, that it makes impossible to bite the mp (it hurts!) but i believe, that you can get as good or even better upper lip control with single lip enbouchure. To get a feel, which muscles you should use, try to play a C major scale in the second register with single lip enbouchure without the upper teeth touching the mouthpiece!
In this way you quarantee that it's your lips that form the tension around the mouthpiece and reed, thus giving the maximum control over the sound quality and intonation.
By the way, if you start learning an enbouchure with a very active upper lip, change the rubber patch on your mouthpiece to the thinnest and hardest one. It's very difficult to control the upper lip pressure when the lip meets a thick and soft rubber.
Jarmo Hyvakko, Principal Clarinet, Tampere Philharmonic, Finland
Post Edited (2018-11-17 10:55)
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Author: Windy Dreamer
Date: 2018-11-17 17:51
Thanks Seabreeze
I reviewed those videos and a few others. I have very thin outer lips so it is difficult to play on the edge. I also have crooked teeth and an offset jaw from a childhood car accident. To keep the clarinet centered and level I developed a large offset lump in the flesh below the outer lip.It is offset to the left, about half an inch thick and an inch and a half long. With all the recent experimentation that lump has almost disappeared already. It was quite a surprise to learn I no longer need that pillow to center the clarinet.It is also a surprise to learn that I can control the movement and stability of the clarinet without tooth pressure.During the past 5 years of playing I must have deveoped much stronger lip and mouth muscles. Inthe past I have noticed the use of muscles for special effects quite often. The biggest problem so far is needing much more air.In the past my brain would run out of oxygen before my lungs ran out of air. I could play well over a minute on a single breath. It is also taking much more pressure to play with only lip pressure. After 6 short notes I am out of air.The few notes I have produced so far seem to be more appealing.
In the past I have experimented with the mouthpiece upside down and offset up to 30 degrees. During the first few weeks I learned to play with the mouthpiece offset by about 20 degrees due to crooked teeth and offset jaw. I overcame those issues with the pillow I mentioned earlier. The only experiment I haven't tried yet is a boxers tooth protector over the upper teeth .I need a thick pad on the upper mouthpiece to keep one crooked tooth from grinding a hole in it.
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Author: Windy Dreamer
Date: 2018-11-18 02:28
Thanks Jarmo
It is exciting to hear from Finland. I have three children with forest Sammi ( a semi nomadic people from northern Scandinavian countries ) ancestry and cultural values.
Tarzan would envy my lip muscles. Today I am doing much better with teeth far removed fron lips. Late this morning I squeezed out about 30 lifeles notes on a single breath with just lip pressure. A few minutes ago I squeezed out 30 notes per breath with either overtone or undertone as I chose. It seems easier to keep the inner lip edges on the mouthpiece and reed if my teeth are pulled farther away. I still can not keep just the edges of lips over the teeth unless I bite and use the mouthpiece to force them in. The mpc patch may soon be irrelavant . Its sole purpose is to protect from my crooked teeth . With teeth far removed and mpc in a firm playable state of air pressure I can move the mpc back and forth at least an inch. I can also move it up and down by about 3/4 inch. Most of the notes have terrible color but minute by minute I see improvement. Double toothless embouchure is looking more promising with every minute of practice.
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2018-11-18 04:57
Dennis, you seem willing to go down seldom tread paths in your search for personal tonal color and expression. You might be interested in this article prepared by some acousticians about Dr. Michael White, a traditional jazz clarinetist in New Orleans and some of his observations on why each of the early New Orleans jazz clarinetists had a distinctive and identifiable way of playing. Most of them played the Albert System and many, such as Alphonse "High Society" Picou and Johnny Dodds, used double lip. Dr. White has a book planned on this subject that I will try to review when it comes out. Evan Christopher is following a similar path.
I can't get the URL to work, but the article will come up if you google the following: Science Daily What Gave Early New Orleans Jazz Clarinetists Their Sound.
Post Edited (2018-11-18 04:58)
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Author: Windy Dreamer
Date: 2018-11-18 06:24
Thanks Seabreeze
You seem to have answers to questions I haven't asked yet.
Michael White is definitely someone I will be spending a lot of time looking into. He sounded a lot like Evan Christopher on the video I just watched.Evan Christopher is my all time favorite player and style of play inspiration.
I have a small touch of Louisiana-Mississippi black and indian ancestry so I hope the talents are hereditary. I believe much of the unique style of New Orleans jazz stars is rooted in rejection of traditional academic influence and the willingness to experimentally go where none have gone before. I like the picture of Michael playing with a nickel between his upper lip and the mpc. Only in New Orleans would something like that be considered ordinary. Watching his embouchure in the video it seemed identical to what I have been attempting today. My last attempt sounded awful but I did learn a few things about this embouchure.Pushing the clarinet slightly in gives base undertones, pushing a little more against the teeth adds vibrato and pulling out adds overtones and eliminates vibrato in the lowest tones. The harder I try the worse I get.It seems the greatest gains are made by only playing for a minute or two once every two hours. I suppose the lips need a lot of rest as they are being retrained.
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2018-11-18 07:40
Well, I'm not sure any of the New Orleans players "rejected" academic traditions. I'd say instead that they assimilated them and decided if and how they might use relevant parts of each. Lorenzo Tio, for example, who taught so many of the early jazz clarinetists reportedly gave very strict and demanding lessons and wanted his students to know how to read music and sight read well, so they could also play in the "society orchestras" of the day. He did not believe in playing just by ear or disdaining the conventions of written music. Dr. White is a paid academic at a New Orleans university, where he is a professor of Romance languages. He has very recently been taking lessons from a clarinetist in the Louisiana Philharmonic, and he had a long friendship with modern jazz clarinetists like Jimmy Hamilton and Alvin Basiste. He plays Boehm system clarinets (including one made by Wurlitzer in Germany) with the avowed purpose of getting a fresh take on the old Albert sound out of the Boehm instrument. That effort embodies assimilation more than rejection.
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Author: Jarmo Hyvakko
Date: 2018-11-18 11:29
Interesting to hear from your Sahmi-origins! I actually worked in Rovaniemi Orchestra in Lapland for a couple of years some decades ago and had also once a student with Sahmi origins and learned to have a great value on that cultural heritage.
Now that you have successfully started to renovate your enbouchure, here's the next stage: imagine your jaws being an adjustable wrench. Adjust your jaws to open so, that the mouthpiece fits in your mouth so that it goes perfectly deep to play the instrument. Wrap your lips round the mouthpiece lower lip over the teeth upper not and you are done: your upper teeth should now be placed on the mouthpiece but not working to make pressure on the mouthpiece. And play concentrating the lips doing the work not biting.
And google Annamaret Ensemble. Very interesting folk music based stuff.
Jarmo Hyvakko, Principal Clarinet, Tampere Philharmonic, Finland
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Author: richard smith
Date: 2018-11-18 18:41
I used to talk with Portnoy at TBA sponsored exhibitions in San Antonio. During one he discussed reed thickness, and was opposed to thick reeds because they did not properly match well with mp design. ( He was a most generous sole to spend time with me )
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Author: Windy Dreamer
Date: 2018-11-18 19:59
It is encouraging to hear that White likes thin reeds . Most clarinetists look at me as an idiot when I tell them what I have done to reeds and mouthpieces. A number 2 rico tip measures .23 mm in the jaws of my micrometer. My tuned reeds measure .17 . Where the new reed measures .45 mine are .22. At the .82 point mine are .45. I also take a lot out of the upper center of the ramp. There is a rolling mournful effect I like that is produced by bending the upper ramp center into the mpc. I need a thin upper ramp center to produce that effect.
Almost all my clarinets came from thrift stores with damaged mouthpieces. I sand out damaged leading edges until I get a seal then tune a reed or two to the mouthpiece. If I feel the side rails are to curved for me to play my style I sand them down as well.When I measured three of my best hand sanded reeds against a new rico I was shocked to see they were all within .01 to .02 mm of each other. Knowing that means that I can speed up the tuning by roughly sanding to a point close to those measurements.
At first it seemed my reeds would not work with double lip or thin lip embouchure but yesterdays results were promising. Today or tomorrow I hope to buy a new Rico 2 and 3 to try out. I find it hard to believe it is easier to manipulate reeds by lip pressure alone than with flesh crushed above teeth.
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Author: Windy Dreamer
Date: 2018-11-20 06:25
How much of the New Orleans style existed prior to the1920s is something I often wonder about.As I listen to it I try to recognize spanish, amerindian and african influences without much luck. Recordings after 1930 are much more appealing to me than those from the 1920s. That would imply that many changes occured during those years. On the other hand recordings from the 1920s may only reflect what was marketable to a commercial audience at the time.The popular sounds of the 1930s may have existed for decades before with a smaller appreciative audience.
The Tio family fled to Mexico for 20 years (1850-1870 ?) to escape southern oppression. On their return after the civil war how much spanish influence or education they brought with them is something we can speculate about. Mexico may deserve much credit for the musical and educational influences of the Tios.
Why Mr. White would want to vest a lot of time and energy into making a Boehm sound like an Albert is a mystery to me. There are some aspects of my Albert I like and many Boehm aspects missing from it.When I attempted to carry one world to the other I found it too difficult. Overall I prefer the sound of my Boehms so I play them predominantly and occasionally play the Albert when I desire the differences.
Now that I have chosen to pursue toothless double lip embouchure I look forward to trying it on my Albert.If the test results are promising enough I may abandom my Boehms and become an Albert player.
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Author: Windy Dreamer
Date: 2018-11-20 06:56
Thanks for your input Jarmo
Yesterday I chose to rest my lips for most of the day. When I made a few attempts in the evening the results were terrible. Today I picked up a 2.5 and a 3.5 Rico Royal reed. With my past embouchure I could only play 2s that had been majorly sanded down . Today using only double lip embouchure I was able to easily play both reads straight out of the holder. It was also shocking to find mastery of my favorite color without altering the reed geometry. Although I still have a long way to go in retraining my lips I am eagerly looking forward to a future with greater control that does not rely on radically modified reeds.
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2018-11-20 08:44
Michael Wright is not "wasting his time" trying to capture certain qualities of the Albert system on the Boehm. He has explained "The Boehm system seems to be less flexible than the Albert in bending and producing a singing tone. My goal has been to try to produce an Albert-like tone on a Boehm clarinet" (which he considers easier to play). The players who forged the New Orleans style (Johnny Dodds, Ed Hall, George Lewis, Sydney Bechet, Omar Simeon, Leon Rappolo, Al Nicholas, Barney Bigard, Irving Fazola et al) all at some point tried and rejected the Boehm, preferring the more "bendable" and vocal qualities of the Albert to the increased technical capacity of the newer system. Unlike them, Wright started on a Boehm and developed proficiency on it, so it makes sense for him to continue with that system but try to find a way to voice it like an Albert. Hybrid forms in art can be beautiful; jazz itself is a gigantic, flying hybrid.
Evan Christopher, after trying a Hammerschmidt clarinet and many other clarinets decided to return to the Selmer Albert type that was favored by many of the old New Orleans players. An analogy here might be made with "authenticity" in architecture. If you like traditional New Orleans wooden shotgun houses, do you build them "Katrina Cottage" style with the long vertical windows and maybe fireplace, or do you put solar photovoltaic cells on the roof, substitute smaller clerestory horizontal widows just below the ceiling, and add insulation never dreamed of in the old days? In selecting an instrument, Christopher is sort of going the Katrina Cottage "make 'em the old way," and White is going the photovoltaic and insulation amenities of the more facile and modern clarinet. Each to his own, I say. Both ways can be authentic.
Post Edited (2018-11-21 02:20)
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Author: Windy Dreamer
Date: 2018-11-21 18:26
When I attempted special effects on my 14 key Wernitzgrun Albert I thought it was too resistant to alteration
With a new embouchure I look forward to trying it again.Even switching between Boehms can fall anywhere between difficult to impossible. When I have difficulty with special effects I review online tutorials on reed tuning . I then scrape and sand until I either achieve the results I want or destroy the reeds..Finely tuned reeds are essential to special effects from my experience with my old embouchure.
Portnoy asserts that even professional players often don' t know consciously how they do what they do. In monitoring myself lately I feel my jaw going back and forth while my upper lip is sort of sucked into different contours.When I try to monitor it I ask myself what is this and where does it come from.
Einstien once wrotè that genius lays in the ability to tune into the divine or universal consciousness. Darth Vader would say turn to the Force.
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