 The Clarinet BBoard
|
Author: GBK
Date: 2018-11-04 20:58
After (too) many years of orchestral playing, I'm finally getting a chance to perform Rachmaninoff Symphony No. 2. Hard to believe I've avoided it all these years.
The famous opening 3rd movement solo will be a challenge of breathing, legato lines, and expressiveness.
Although the performance is still months away, I've been getting ready by preparing the part and inserting markings as needed. Peter Hadcock's book is especially helpful.
I think that I also now have a workable and reliable high D fingering in meas.17 (6 bars after 46)
Anyone perform this recently and want to share some ideas?
...GBK
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Chris P
Date: 2018-11-04 22:02
Try this fingering for that high D:
Sp. Th. throat G# oxx|xxo
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: gatto
Date: 2018-11-04 22:24
By just private practising this beautiful solo, I found out that it is helpful to use for the high C the non-standard fingering
Sp. Th. ooo|xxx
in order to prepare the (pianissimo) high D, since this fingering makes the transition between the registers much smoother. (With this fingering the high C is a bit more resistant, but -- at least in my setting -- the intonation is equal.)
Post Edited (2018-11-04 22:28)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: J. J.
Date: 2018-11-05 01:32
Don’t worry about it. You’re not going to play it that softly anyway.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: GBK
Date: 2018-11-05 03:31
Trying to keep the high D in the third partial so it matches the high C, the best connection from the high C for me seems to be:
Play the high C: TR O O O / O O O
Play the high D:
TR (G# throat) O O O (bottom right side key)(optional -left pinky C#/G# key) / O O O
...GBK
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: kdk
Date: 2018-11-05 03:53
If your clarinet really needs all that goosing to get the G# key fingering to be in tune, you gotta do what you gotta do. Using the Eb key, the side Bb and the C#/G# seems like overkill. Is your TR G# ooo/ooo that flat that adding one of those other keys wouldn't be enough?
It's the 7th of a C#7 (V7 of F# minor) - should tend downward anyway. It complicates things a little (and partly defeats the attempt at playing it really softly) that you're doubled at octaves by bassoon 1, viola 2 and cello 1 (divided in octaves). The clarinet dominates only because it's two octaves above all that. You're going to have to find what fits during rehearsals.
Karl
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2018-11-05 04:05
I've always used the normal fingerings. Both Marcellus and Gennusa felt the same when I had to play this in college. I played it a few other times after college. I liked Gennusa's approach of playing the C < D, but back off as soon as you hit the D, so the D doesn't pop out like an accented note. Sometimes the D won't come out if you don't < on the C to the D. This also allows for extreme expression which is demanded in the solos as we already know. Often a slightly harder reed helps depending on your embouchure. Maybe a 1/4 strength harder. Not too much as you may miss the D totally.
A general thought on this amazing piece is when the notes go up the scale you can get get a bit volume of air. Please note the difference between volume and loudness. You want to continue a strong airflow without adding too much loudness.
Great question.
Hope this helps. Email me if you are confused.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: donald
Date: 2018-11-05 06:06
I've always performed this solo on the B flat clarinet, much easier to dim etc slurring b to c#
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Klose ★2017
Date: 2018-11-05 07:02
Played very recently using Oehler, and it is a bit more difficult than Böhm I think. So I used side key for the D.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2018-11-05 18:29
Gatto's idea is very good depending on your instrument's resistance and intonation. Though I haven't played it recently I have done the first part and I used the normal D fingering without having a problem. I have taught it many times as well and would always work with the student to find the best solution for them. Sometimes one of the alternate D fingers works well for someone but most often the normal D or Gatto's idea works well. The use of your breath support is all important in any case from the C to the D and back. And yes, you do want to play it softly. I wrote an article in the Clarinet journal many years ago comparing five recordings of where the players took breaths, it's amazing how different many of them were in some places. When I played in the BSO, bass clarinet, sometimes the conductor asked the principal where to breath in one or two spots but most often allowed him to breath where he wanted. Just find the most comfortable and musicial places for you.
ESP eddiesclarinet.com
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: GBK
Date: 2018-11-06 06:08
gregbaker112@gmail.com wrote:
> The 2nd movement is all B flat. So you also eliminate picking
> up a cold A Clarinet to play the solo.
When playing the solo on Bb clarinet are you using an alternate fingering for the high C#/Db?
...GBK
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: donald
Date: 2018-11-06 06:34
When I play the solo on b flat I use the side keys plus left hand 3rd finger + C#/g# key (for the high C# that replaces the D on the A clarinet) . I don't know about Greg Baker, but I find the solo easy on B flat, and I save lots of time not having to work up up the high D slur as I find that c# fingering is very easy to utilise. Playing with all those sharps makes the overall legato a bit harder, but I also find the sharps help me get a more "covered sound". Plus, clarion D is a bit lacking in resonance on lots of A clarinets- mine is no exception- so replacing that with a clear and resonant C sharp (3rd space) is an improvement. Plus plus, why play on a cold clarinet when you can stay on a warm instrument that you've had the opportunity to check the tuning on in the previous movement.
Post Edited (2018-11-06 12:50)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: gregbaker112@gmail.com
Date: 2018-11-08 06:23
I would use regular C#.
Not sure about tuning, because I have never performed the piece; only the excerpt.
Greg Baker
gregbaker112@gmail.com
😀 "Hey! I got nothing to do today but smile."
-Paul Simon
Post Edited (2018-11-08 06:29)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: richard smith
Date: 2018-11-08 20:01
I used it as a measure of even blowing resistance , and found five Ridenour tr147 clarinets which were excellent . { my grandson now has all five }
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: MartyMagnini
Date: 2018-11-08 23:51
I took lessons from Walter Wollwage (2nd chair of the CSO for 35-40 years) from 1973 - 1980 or so, and he would always insist that I use the "normal" fingerings that make the note sound the best, and just figure out how to make it work on whatever passage I was working on. Maybe 1 or 2 exceptions (Nielsen the B-D, etc.) but when I worked through the Rach 2 with him, it was normal fingerings the whole way. I later studied with Mel Warner (who had been principal in St. Louis, I believe), and he had a different fingering for every occasion! Different strokes, I guess, but I always have been more partial to Walter's way of thinking.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: blueclarinet
Date: 2018-11-09 10:56
The last time I played this in Seattle I just used the regular d fingering with no E flat key. That way you can use a tiny bit more pressure and not go sharp. Good alternate fingerings are hard to get to, and I really don’t trust using the trill fingering. Chris Sereque
William C Sereque
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2018-11-22 18:18
So this is a bit late to be of any relevance to the performance but I was wondering from the crowd if there is any reason one could not use the open D (no fingers at all.....T or R et al)?
Someone suggested using the last side key along with other fingers suggestive of the overtone, but I have regularly used that last side key to bring up the pitch on the open D. I have even played rapid ascending D scales utilizing the "C#" played like "C" with the two last side keys and then just removing Thumb and Register for the D. Yes, that is a bit high but it really depends on context and can be tamed with the embouchure.
Just askin'
...................Paul Aviles
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: kdk
Date: 2018-11-22 18:43
I think it would depend on how your instrument sounds and tunes on open D. In the context the most important criteria are the match in tone between the C and the D, the smoothness of the connection, and the pitch. Open D is certainly smooth enough, but on my equipment other fingerings (the G# key in particular) are easier to manage for tone match and intonation. Obviously, YMMD.
Happy Thanksgiving to all!
Karl
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: GBK
Date: 2018-11-22 21:11
A "never miss" high D fingering (shown to me by Greg Smith) and used by a few famous principal clarinetists in this passage from the high C is:
R (no thumb) o o x / o o o
With a little practice, it is a very viable alternative.
...GBK
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: gatto
Date: 2018-11-22 21:33
Concerning usage of the B-flat clarinet instead:
The 3rd movement of Rachmaninov's 2nd Symphony is one of those soft/intimate pieces where I have the feeling that the composer really wants the A clarinet. I know that there are discussions about how far the audience could recognize whether a A clarinet or a B-flat clarinet plays. By the same reason, also the conductor could insist on the A clarinet, couldn't he?
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: GBK
Date: 2018-11-22 21:40
The clarinet solo in the 3rd movement of Rachmaninoff's 2nd symphony is based on a quotation of the opening theme of the 1st movement of the Mozart Clarinet Concerto.
With the same opening notes, use the A clarinet.
...GBK
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Liquorice
Date: 2018-11-23 00:40
...and the clarinet solo in the slow movement of Rachmaninov's 2nd Piano Concerto is based on a quotation from Celine Dion's hit "All by Myself".
:-)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Chris P
Date: 2018-11-23 03:23
And the main theme of the 3rd movement of the 2nd symphony is actually by Eric Carmen.
Here's the proof: https://youtu.be/YVP-6eepYtY?t=40
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Windy Dreamer
Date: 2018-11-23 20:26
To truly appreciate the works of Rachmanioff you have to hear them as performed by Berliner Philharmoniker.I wonder if the appearance of similarity to other compositions might lay in style of play more than in actual composition.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2018-11-24 00:48
Ah, there is so much to the interpretations!
I think you may refer to Herbert von Karajan. He was the master of the boisterous as well as the incredibly subtle. You may also appreciate Sergiu Celibidache recordings (when the pieces you want to hear are available by him). I prefer conductors that play the orchestra like a personal instrument........after all, what else is the point?
.............Paul Aviles
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
The Clarinet Pages
|
 |
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
