 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: tinselworm42
Date: 2018-10-21 18:37
Hello all
I have a problem on my bass clarinet that I haven't been able to solve: low G, F#, F, and E, only when tonguing, pitch a 12th high.
I've had this problem on every bass I've ever played, so I'm fairly sure it's me, further supported by the fact it's only happening when I tongue - slurring down to the notes is fine. I'm pretty sure it's something to do with my voicing.
I've tried pretty much everything to fix this: had the instruments set up and checked for leaks, looser embouchure, tighter, lower tongue position, higher, less mouthpiece in the mouth (the most successful, but then the tone is stuffy), tonguing in different positions on the reed, slower air, faster air, different mouthpieces - I'm stumped and the problem is driving me mad. It's better when I start my air slower, but then I can't get a loud volume on a low note when I need it or a clean start to the note.
Any ideas as to how to fix this?
Current set up: Selmer Privilege to low C, Grabner LB mouthpiece, vandoren 3 or 3.5, but it honestly does it with every set up I try and every single instrument/mouthpiece/reed combination. It's me, and something to do with voicing, and I can't fix it.
Thanks all - any suggestions would be most gratefully received.
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Author: tinselworm42
Date: 2018-10-21 18:40
Postscript: Sorry, I didn't explain that very well - it's not just that it's pitching a 12th high cleanly, although sometimes it does - it's that it's giving me a combination of the two notes, like a multiphonic, when I tongue. Eventually as the note "blows in", the lower one comes through and the higher disappears. But I can't tongue a clean note on those low notes without the dual note coming out.
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2018-10-26 17:25
My guess, and it's only an educated guess, is that the back of your tongue is to high as you go done and tongue. Try feeling the back of your tongue getting as low as possible and then adjust as necessary. The only other thing I can think of is that there's to much ee in your throat and not nearly enough oo or oh in that register. Could even be a combination of both, tongue and throat. Good luck.
ESP eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: tinselworm42
Date: 2018-10-27 13:07
That was exactly my thought too, Ed, and I've been trying to modify it with that in mind, but I can't seem to get my tongue into a position where the back is low enough to voice correctly but where the tip can still reach to tongue correctly.
It is worse when the air is fast, or when I'm playing loudly. If I bring the air in slowly, it doesn't do it, but then I can't get a clean start to the note, and it makes things like playing on 1 and 3 (lots of concert band bass clarinet parts) pretty difficult.
Thanks for the response, much appreciated.
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Author: kdk
Date: 2018-10-27 18:20
I wouldn't even consider countering anything Ed P suggests - he's far more competent as a bass player than I am. But because I'm not as competent and certainly not as confident when I play bass, I may have experienced the kind of problem you're having more recently than Ed has.
Even on a soprano clarinet, one way to get, or to force, the kind of multiphonic sound you describe is by taking just a little too much reed in your mouth. Of course, too little reed will constrict the sound, but too much, right in the borderline area between full sound and full-out squawk, can cause that kind of instability. Just a possibility.
I tend to have problems with actual squeaks (maybe not quite your problem but maybe from a similar cause) on attacking the lowest notes on a bass - E to maybe F# or G. I can minimize it by playing double lip, which is how I play soprano clarinet. But I can't keep that up on bass - I probably don't practice it enough and it's just easier to revert to single lip on bass. But a more secure solution for me is to start the air, holding the reed still with my tongue, before I release the reed to "attack" or start the sound. I can get a very clean start at any dynamic this way. The first time I used it was for the bass entrance at the beginning of La Valse, which the conductor wanted to be almost inaudible. I'm doing the same thing this week for the much louder attacks in the first couple of scenes of Bernstein's Trouble In Tahiti.
I'm fairly sure that, when I try to blow and attack all at once on those low notes, I'm probably pinching slightly because of the motion of my tongue on the much larger reed. When I pre-start the air (much like a gong player primes the gong before he actually strikes the note) it also pre-sets my tongue (maybe going back to Ed's point) and embouchure position and eliminates the cause of the squeaks. If your multiphonics have the same root cause, that's another possible avenue to try.
Karl
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2018-10-27 19:15
Well it's true I've never had this problem and in all the years I've taught both clarinet and bass I don't recall anyone having this problem either to your extent so I'm not speaking from experience about this. I've come across problems with skiping from one register to another but not this to my recollection. You did mentiion having trouble keeping the back of your tongue down a bit and still having the tip in the position you want. I believe that COULD be the problem. Don't worry about trying to tongue on the TIP of the reed on Bass, just try letting the tongue touch the reed where ever it goes. Pulling back the tip will make it near impossible to lower the back when playing in that register if you're having a problem, which you are. Just another thought.
ESP eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: kdk
Date: 2018-10-27 21:39
I'm curious - what happens if you just blow a low note without using your tongue? Just starting with "hu-u-u-u"?
Karl
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Author: tinselworm42
Date: 2018-10-27 22:22
Thank you everyone, such helpful responses.
Karl - yes, I suspect it's a co-ordination issue with blow/attack/tongue, as you say. When I don't tongue, if i "huh" the note, it doesn't do it. It's only when I'm tonguing. And it's definitely something to do with the speed of attack, because if I bring the air in more slowly (like huuuuuh-tuh), again, not a problem, but then that means I can't get a strong start to a note if I need to play loud, and makes it very difficult if, say, I've got a load of offbeats at forte on a low G/F or something.
If I keep blowing, the multiphonic eventually disappears and the low note alone "kicks in".
I've also noticed that if I pull a little mouthpiece out, it's not so evident, but then the sound is more pinched.
Ed - interesting about the position of tonguing. If I "overshoot" the tip of the mouthpiece a bit, it's not quite so bad. But all my instincts tell me not to do that!
It's plagued me on every bass I've ever had and drives me nuts. Only ever on G, F#, F and E. The low Eb downwards is fine.
When I have a little more time tomorrow, I'll try to get a recording of it, to see if that sheds any light.
Thanks once again for the responses!
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Author: kdk
Date: 2018-10-27 23:01
One other possibility comes to ind - a mechanical issue a repair person won't find unless he leak-tests the instrument when it's assembled. My bass has an automatic double register mechanism. The lower one opens for B4-D#5 and the upper one opens beginning with E5. Only one should be open at a time. Even when every pad seals on each section, if the bridge keys that control the register mechanism and the pad that closes for 1+1 Eb4/Bb5 aren't lined up in a specific way, the register keys open when they shouldn't. I don't know if there's a single but less complicated mechanism involved with a single register opening. But you might check to be sure the register pad(s) are firmly closed with the instrument assembled (just another issue I had to find for myself).
Karl
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Author: tinselworm42
Date: 2018-10-27 23:07
Thanks Karl. It's been extensively checked and leak-tested, and since it's happened on the same four notes on every single bass I've owned (an Evette, a Yamaha and now my Selmer Privelege) and even on Sarah Watts' bass when she let me try it on hers, I think it's safe to say the issue is me!
Post Edited (2018-10-28 00:41)
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