 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Windy Dreamer
Date: 2018-10-21 20:05
Over the past few years I have play tested many new wood clarinets with my own mouthpieces and reeds. They all sounded flat and lacking in tone and color. When I played my 1955 Buffet R13 Academy against a new R13 the new one sounded much like mine but still lacked character
So far the R13 is the best new wood clarinet I have tried. Many forum posters have said you have to try 8 to 10 of them to find a good one.
I am assuming that the flatness is due to the fact that the new clarinet is not broken in.I also assume that a new clarinet may be trained or conditioned to have an overall character more appealing to its new owner. I also fear that if I made a once in a lifetime purchase of a new professional clarinet its overall tonal qualities would be much different after breakin than at time of purchase.The fear that a new clarinet may lose its appealing qualities after break in is a major deterrant to me ever buying one .
Are my assumptions correct ? Could the once in a lifetime purchase of the perfect clarinet become a major disapointment after break in ?
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2018-10-21 20:19
Be aware that the sound that you hear is not the sound that a listener hears. Have you tried recording your playing and listening critically to the recordings? You may get a pleasant surprise (or maybe not). Also, our ears and hearing characteristics change over time, and so do our perceptions of what we sound like. Take a knowledgeable friend with you when you audition a new clarinet and get their perspective on your sound. It may be different from yours.
Tony F.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2018-10-21 21:36
By 'flatness,' are you referring to pitch as measured by a tuner in the room with you when you tried the horn? If so, is the pitch immediately back where you are used to it when you put your mouthpiece back on your horn?
"Break-in" refers mainly to getting the horn used to being exposed the condensation down the bore and the associated expansion and contraction of the wood. I never experienced any perceptible change in pitch or response after you've played on a horn for awhile. This is why you have to be happy with the horn BEFORE you purchase it. That said, some are not set up great (poor pads, some sealing issues, maladjusted corks). So if you are pretty good at determining what is going on with some existing issues, you can guesstimate how the horn will respond once those things are fixed.
Yamaha CSVR, CSG and SEV (brightest of the three) are also worth trying if you really like the Buffet R13. I used to be really bullish on the Uebels but their overall pitch is lower than just a few years ago.....very disappointing.
.............Paul Aviles
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Author: Windy Dreamer
Date: 2018-10-21 22:14
Those are questions that I have put a lot of thought into over the past year. After play testing a new clarinet against my hybridized plastic Jupiter ( the bottom section may be Vito ) a store employee played a neutral emphasis scale test on my Jupiter and then played back one of my melodies with my characteristic emphasis. I could not believe how much better the clarinet sounded from the other end.Assuming that the difference was rooted in superior talent I praised his superior talent.He countered that he merely echoed me to demonstrate the difference in perception from the other end. He then continued " Your instrument is in tune, its components are in harmony, your melody is excellent and you may not gain as much as you think by buying a new instrument". The other end perspective was reinforced dramatically a week ago in the fine arts building of our major university.While facing the door in a 12 foot wide, 40 foot long, 30 foot tall enclosed entrance chamber I played a few bar melody.I could barely hear the front of the clarinet over the loud multiple echoes. The experience was absolutely fabulous. I wanted to stay and play but was worried that my playing might be disrupting the entire building through unseen ventilation passages.
Several listeners have encouraged me to play publicly with my hybridized Jupiter rather than a new clarinet.
To quote my very capable and popular musician son. " Your Jupiter is pretty good and more than adequate for busqueing". Your melodies are uplifting and empowering, people need to hear more of that kind of music". With your level of skill you are not likely to play with the local symphony but never say never". "Your play is better than the average busker but do bear in mind that the average busker is not very good so not everyone will appreciate your skill and instrument"."From a financial standpoint, people need and want to hear more music so they reward even the worst musicians to encourage others to come forward". Overall you need the money and the community needs your style and message, get out and do it".
On a scale of 10 I percieve his comments as 10 for message followed bytechnical skill 6 as compared to the average busker and 0 to 2 as compared to symphonic standards.
If I ever bought a new expensive clarinet it would be solely for personal pleasure. In essence a vanity purchase . We all like new toys.
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Author: Windy Dreamer
Date: 2018-10-21 23:10
By flatness I mean lacking depth and broadness of overall tone. I own at least 3 different series Vandoren mouthpieces .Their website describes them as dark and centred.They are opposite of everything I desire in a clarinet. My personal favorite mouthpiece came with ligature and cap for $6.75. it is intended primarily for elementary school children.
I have never studied music and am having trouble grasping music vocabulary. I think the term I should have used to describe flatness is color.
I also own a 1927 A Fontaine Rosewood and a late 1940s Wernitzgrun Albert clarinet . Both of them have their original period mouthpieces. They both satisfy me more than any new wood clarinet that I have tried so far.
Although I now own 4 highly desrable heritage wood clarinets I view them more as held in trust than expendable personal possessions.I play them rarely so as to preserve them for future owners.
Any played clarinet will wear out and or suffer accidental damage. My new wood clarinet desires are rooted in bias for wood and a perceived sense of right to wear out or damage an expendable clarinet that is wholly my own.
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Author: jdbassplayer
Date: 2018-10-22 00:03
>Any played clarinet will wear out and or suffer accidental damage. My new wood
>clarinet desires are rooted in bias for wood and a perceived sense of right to
>wear out or damage an expendable clarinet that is wholly my own.
First of all, I can assure you that you would have a very difficult time trying to play a clarinet enough to wear it out. And even if you do, an overhaul (which should be done around every 10 years anyway) will bring it back to like new condition.
Secondly, you should not feel bad for playing an old clarinet as much as you want. In fact leaving an instrument in its case can even accelerate decay in some cases. If you wipe it down and swab it after playing you have nothing to worry about.
Third, don't have any doubt that these are your clarinets. If you bought them then you have every right to play them to your hearts content. Why worry about what some collector might think 50 years from now?
And finally, while old clarinets may seem like rare antiques, they are pretty much worthless to collectors with the exception of a few brands. Thats because there are literally TONS of vintage wooden instruments flooding the market.
I've actually owned both an A Fontaine and a Clemens Meinel Wernitzgrun full Boehm clarinet. The first I cut the lower joint in half and made a homemade basset extension. The second I salvaged parts off of and eventually ground down the wood for crack repair on other instruments. Do I feel bad about destroying these "antiques"? No. If I wanted to replace them with similar instruments at most it would cost no more that a few hundred dollars and some good saved searches on an internet auction site.
TLDR: If you like the vintage instruments you have now don't be afraid to play them.
-Jdbassplayer
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2018-10-22 01:01
Thank you for defining "flatness." My thought has always been that given a decent quality clarinet, the amount of color you have in your sound is determined far more by HOW you play and what reed/mouthpiece combination you use to get that sound.
I don't want to put words in Bob Bernardo's mouth, but I think he is referring to that sort of richly colored sound when he talks about the "American sound" that has been all but lost to history. I don't even recall which amazing old time clarinet player I heard up close with nothing else going on, but the sound up close was a little bright and a little airy, the sort of sound that would make you say, "well I could do THAT." But just a few feet away it became huge, rich and just amazing.
Maybe it was Paul Schaller (past principal of the Detroit Symphony). The was an alumni orchestral event at my high school at which he and I played Tchaickovsky's Capriccio Italien. The only distinct memory I have of that meeting was when everything was really cranked up in performance I distinctly recall thinking, "gosh, I never heard a clarinet play so loud!"
............Paul Aviles
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Author: Windy Dreamer
Date: 2018-10-22 02:54
I have given a lot of thought to the ideas brought up by JD. The value of my heritage instruments is financially not great. Their value is essentially intrinsic. Although I enjoy reliving the 1920s nightclub era music through the A Fontaine it is not the world I want to permanently dwell in. In appraising the A Fontaine my tech shop peers have stated that the clarinet itself is virtually worthless. The only parts on it worth using might be the posts and set screws in a desperate situation. They suggested I sell the mouthpiece and use the money to buy two more A Fontaines on line if I like them that much. I probably would grind some wood out of it if I needed it for a higher purpose. When my full senior benefits kick in ,one of my first purchases will be a better A Fontaine.
In the past I have been drawn to many classic professional clarinets I have read about here. With patient internet auction monitering you can get almost all of them for well under $200.00 each.
Realisticly a new clarinet cannot offer me anything more than polish, gleam and possibly a freshly gilded logo to boast about.
I've also thought a lot about Pauls suggestion about reed and mouthpiece combinations. Mine are so finely tuned to each clarinet that I cannot interchange them between clarinets. That is probably the reason why the new clarinets seemed so devoid of color to me
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Author: shmuelyosef
Date: 2018-10-23 23:51
A trick that I have learned about trying musical instruments...relies on some inexpensive equipment, but makes the experience more useful and objective.
I use a portable stereo recorder with a headphone jack (e.g. a Tascam DR-05 which can be had for <$100) and a pair of closed back headphones or earbuds with a good seal.
I set up the recorder to monitor the stereo in the headphones (or to record if you want to capture the trial experience), put it on a table (or better on a small desktop or floor mic stand) and listen to myself play as if I'm standing 5-10 feet away (limited by your headphone cord length).
It is useful even for practicing long tones in your studio...as you will be shocked as to how you 'actually' sound to the listener. At home I often set up a large diaphragm microphone and play from the opposite side of my home studio.
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Author: Windy Dreamer
Date: 2018-10-24 17:20
Some form of headphone self monitoring will definitely be used by me in the near future.Over the years I have often wondered about the difference between self and audience perception.During an employment medical 20 years ago I was told I was functionally deaf with over 60 % hearing loss in over 60% of higher frequency tones. The clinic claimed that I would qualify for disability retirement at the time if I was employed through any of the provinces unions. It would be interesting to hear playback with higher frequency tones tuned back to approximate healthier hearing.
All of the new clarinets I have tried were played in the same store. They warned that the large high budget store was designed to be accoustically dead as much as possible so that prospective purchasers of cds and instruments would not easily drown out each other. I may have been underestimating that impact.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2018-10-24 19:35
On the subject of trying out horns I would say that is very important to start off on your horn (and mouthpiece and trusty reed) first. This way you establish not only how you are playing in the moment but how the room sounds as well. I was at a clarinet conference about a year ago where the instruments for purchase were in the worst sort of ballroom acoustically. It was not just dry but the sound I produced on my horn could only be compared to a kazoo. So really the ONLY assessment that I could make that day in that room was pitch (and maybe response to some degree).
The remark concerning the perception of higher frequencies leaves me confused. If you cannot hear certain frequencies, there is no way to recalibrate what you hear. Those frequencies are permanently lost to you.
I will give you two practical examples:
Years ago I sold stereo and it was general rule that couples would often not agree on what speakers sounded better. That is because women in general are better at perceiving higher frequencies. So the male half of the couple would think he was listening to something as smooth as butter and yet the female could hear the parts that were grating on her nerves (NOT good).
A pretty famous recording mixer (determines the basic sounds and balances of a recording......mostly associated with pop music) once told the story of when his sub woofer was blown. He failed to test his set up before putting together a final mix of a recording that was sent out immediately to the mastering engineer. Sure enough he got the call from said mastering engineer who said, "Hey buddy, this is NOT your usual work. The bass is way too boomy."
The point here is that if you don't perceive a certain set of frequencies, the risk is that you'll have too much of it to the detriment of others.
.............Paul Aviles
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Author: Windy Dreamer
Date: 2018-10-24 20:18
The medical assessment confuses me as well. The hearing loss was allegedly 60-80 % of over 60% of all high frequency tones. When I listen to music and tv I have no trouble hearing high frequency sounds. If anything I find lower frequency sounds hard to hear. I suspect that the tones used in the hearing tests were very narrow in width and that I would have done better if the test tones were wider in scope. On the other hand I missed a high pitched fire drill once at an oil refinery. Everyone else was complaing about agonizing earaches from it while I had to hold my breath and concentrate strongly to detect it at all. I suppose that most musicians with a history of loud industrial employment will never know how they sound to their audience.
Although I may never know how my future audiences will hear my playing I am encouraged by the feedback I have received from others so far.My goals are to calm, uplift and empower for positive action. That is what I have been told my melodies do.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2018-10-24 21:09
Well that was my next piece of advice. As far as the performance aspect of your sound goes (not style, just SOUND) I would recommend having the input of several trusted peers to help determine performance quality. There is no shame in that at all. In fact I recall a really good bassoonist used to have a few of us sit at the other end of the band hall and evaluate which reeds sounded best. He also insisted on continuing lessons through his career so that there would always be another set of "ears" on what he was doing.
...........Paul Aviles
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Author: Windy Dreamer
Date: 2018-10-25 20:57
I may have finally figured out the major reason why I dislike the new clarinets I have tried. A few weeks ago I acquired a nearly new Jupiter JCL 731 Clarinet. To my ear it sounded as bad as the new ones I tried in the store.Yesterday I began to acquire a taste for it despite its muffled tones. While looking closely at the key pads this morning I noticed that pads over open tone holes rest closer to the clarinet body than the aged clarinets I love to play. Their key corks are either compressed from age and play or razor thin if I replaced them. In essence my ear and melodies are trained to keys that are open wider at rest than a newer clarinet. I also assume that a brand new clarinet would have narrower clearances between open tone holes and pads than it would after a few months of play.The possibility that old dry pads might add resonance to tones is another issue I am considering.
In the distant past my tech shop warned me that by learning to play on clarinets that were widely open with dry stiff pads I could have difficulty in the future making the transition to a newer instrument.
Post Edited (2018-10-26 03:09)
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Author: shmuelyosef
Date: 2018-10-28 21:06
From my observations, venting (key heights) on saxophones and clarinets alike are set too low. I believe this is to 1) simplify playing fast, particularly for small hands (schoolchildren) and 2) to 'mellow' the sound of the clarinet.
Increasing the venting even by 0.5mm from factory new settings dramatically improves the response, tone, projection and (often) intonation...this is very evident in saxophones, but also the case for many clarinets.
Part of the problem is the inconsistency in pad thicknesses that are available.
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Author: Windy Dreamer
Date: 2018-10-28 22:16
Assuming that I would have to dismantle a new clarinet to rework venting clearances and install more resonant pads defeats much of the purpose of buying a new clarinet. In essence a new clarinet could be considered an expensive candidate for refurbishing.
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Author: Windy Dreamer
Date: 2018-11-03 17:36
As Paul has suggested I have now booked my first clarinet lesson. He is almost a carbon copy of me in all areas of music concerns and preferences, right down to widely opened keys, highly modified thin reeds and the vital role of folk musicians in everyday public life.
Although he was willing to teach me on my Jupiter--Vito frankenet I have chosen to start lessons on my recently acquired Jupiter JCL-731. Now that it is cleaned with widely opened keys it delivers the type of sound I thought a new clarinet would have.
As a former repair tech he asserted that he would choose a mass production clarinet over 10 years old over any new equivalant beginner to intermediate clarinet. He claims that globalisation of manufacturing has resulted in new clarinets having universal key deficiencys in both manufacture and installation across all brands he is familiar with. Apparently he shares my dislike of the on shelf sound of new clarinets due to new global standards of manufacture and tuning.
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Author: shmuelyosef
Date: 2018-11-04 05:23
Windy Dreamer said: "Assuming that I would have to dismantle a new clarinet to rework venting clearances"
Quite honestly, I can't remember the last time I picked up a new instrument fresh off the factory line that didn't require some meaningful setup...that certainly includes new Buffet R-13s (or did when I bought the ones for my kids ~20 years ago). Those were the most expensive clarinets I ever bought.
In the saxophone world, any sax that costs under $3000 certainly requires attention and many over that point; this even includes Yamaha. About 10 years ago I bought a pair of silver-plated Yamaha 82Z Custom horns (alto and tenor), and after struggling with the excessively compressed pads, and poor material choices, I gave both of them a fresh overhaul. Many of the pivot-mounted keys had free-play, and some of the pads had extremely deep (and uneven) tonehole indents. The keys were not parallel and the toneholes were not flat (with visible grinding marks remaining).
The Yamaha Custom clarinets are pretty good. I imagine that if you bought a new Patricola, Eaton, etc...it would play well, but you are basically paying for an expert setup as part of the expert assembly. Most factory horns are assembled with no adjustment from parts with tolerance drift.
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Author: Windy Dreamer
Date: 2018-11-05 08:32
Reading and hearing about other peoples dreadful experiences with new clarinets and saxophones has been very depressing. The thoughts of having to grind, braze and bend new keys is overwhelming. It makes me feel that the new clarinet market is a suckers market.It also diminishes my respect for my professional clarinets.
Among my several older clarinets are several keys that I would like to have more movement for wider opening, especially trill keys. Until now I thought that would be foolish and destructive. After reading about people having to do that on new professional instruments I feel much more comfortable about making key modifications on my lower value clarinets.
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2018-11-05 09:38
There are tons of people that will NEVER leave Buffet. But for those who dare to try other instruments check out the Selmer's and the Yamaha's. Lot's of players are calling me asking about mouthpieces to fit their new Yamaha's. They all say the same thing that they pick out 1 or 2 horns and they all play great. No adjustments were needed. You can play a concert the same night.
I left Buffet because of the older horns playing better and the newer horns playing on the flat side, mainly the A clarinet. Finding a great older horn is becoming pretty much impossible as the bores are just blown out.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
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