 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: m1964
Date: 2018-10-01 08:11
I am writing this VERY LONG POST after buying three used clarinets. I hope that people looking for a used clarinet can learn from my experience and possibly avoid aggravations I went through.
A few years ago I accidentally stumbled upon Craig's list add advertising an E12.
I looked at the clarinet and could see that it was not used much. The parents (who were part-time musicians guitar/base guitar players) bought the clarinet for their son when he was in high school, "in hope he might become professional", but the son did not use it after he graduated. The clarinet had minimal wear on the logos, did not hold vacuum well but was in "playable condition" and in a good shape cosmetically. Case was in good shape as well. I bought the instrument, played it a few times and put in a closet.
About 6 months ago, I decided to join a local band and re-started playing- the clarinet felt well in my hands, tuning was good, and I did not feel I needed a better instrument.
Three months ago, I had a chance to try my friends' Festival from 1990ies. My friend chose his from 8-9 Festivals at the Buffet factory in Germany. His clarinet was excellent- it was easy to blow, had precise tuning, nice sound/timbre. So I decided to upgrade but because I could not afford to buy a Festival I decided to get an R13.
Saga #1.
After looking at eBay and Craig's list for about a month, I found what I thought was a decent buy: a used R13, "recently serviced" (at a chain store in TX) that was advertised as being in "good playable condition".
Mistake #1: I misread the description. The seller said, "Three pads and one tenon cork were replaced". I thought I read, "The pads were replaced".
When I got the instrument, I noticed immediately that most of the pads were old. The bell would go on and come off with some difficulty despite of the supposedly new tenon cork.
I used to do re-padding myself and thought it would not be a big deal to re-pad this clarinet. However, later I recalled posts on this board about tenon binding on some R13s and decided to look for a professional to fix the clarinet.
A couple of technicians told me they would only do "a complete overhaul" for $700.
I was lucky to find a technician who agreed to re-pad and fix the binding tenon issue (that required slight shaving of the bell/tenon on a lathe), for only $300. He also relocated the thumb rest. I was lucky that the keys were in decent shape (no lose keys/posts), and the tone holes were not damaged.
The tech did a good job and now I have an R13 in good shape; it holds vacuum well, sounds good and the only one issue is that the pads the tech installed were leather (supposedly from Europe) and they stick a bit (almost all of them)…
However, I spent $300 more than I anticipated.
Saga #2.
Recently, I joined an amateur symphony orchestra and the program for the next concert includes Oberon overture that requires A-clarinet. I could transpose (and did on the first rehearsal) but figured out I would have to buy an A clarinet anyway at some point so why not now?
There were no A-clarinets on Craig's list.
Eventually I found a Buffet RC from a seller in Europe. The seller from Europe described his clarinet as "Beautiful Fully Serviced Buffet Crampon RC Professional Level A Clarinet (in La) in mint cosmetic condition and absolutely perfect playing condition." He also said it had "Silver keyworks,… all pads and body/regulation corks have recently been replaced and are correctly seated and in place."
I e-mailed him and advised that I had somewhat negative experience with buying a clarinet off eBay and asked if his description was 100% correct. He replied, "Yes, it's a beautiful instrument in perfect condition".
The seller in Europe accepted my offer of 1,320 Great British Pounds, which was supposed to equal $1,815. There was a very similar RC on eBay from a seller/technician in Georgia, but I could not afford to pay his minimum price of $2200.
1. I was charged $1880 instead of $1815 because PayPal charges 2.5-3% "conversion" fees. I called PayPal, told them that my CC can be charged in any currency and asked to charge me in GBP. They refused citing a policy that they have to exchange currency because I am in the US and they can only charge payment in USD, not GBP…
2. When I received the clarinet, I noticed immediately that the keys were nickel plated, not silver, and the pads were not new. I did not see any other obvious issues and the instrument sounded great. I contacted the seller who tried to give me a run around. He stated that he "thought the keys were silver because they were very shiny" and that "the pads are seated well and I did not think they need replacing..."
Since the clarinet sounds great and I did not want to send it back, I was able to negotiate a small partial refund with the seller.
I was able to re-pad the upper joint myself - it is now better then it was, but it does not hold vacuum as well as my R13 does (re-padded by a tech).
I will do lower joint later because it holds the air OK (but not great).
I did pay $50 to relocate the thumb rest, $30 for a new adjustable thumb rest and the pads were over $40 (I got a few extra pads just in case…).
The conclusion:
In my experience, buying of Craig's list was the easiest and most straightforward transaction, without any additional hassle after the purchase.
Buying off eBay required negotiations with sellers (including multiple messages that took time) and additional spending.
At least I was lucky that both R13 and the RC sound good and are in tune (for the most part...).
However, my E12 also sounds good, is in tune and I did not have any stress after buying it.
I am not suggesting how buy the clarinet, I am just describing my personal experience.
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2018-10-04 18:51
Wish you bought a Yamaha new for abut the same price. I guess you still can. Something to think about. Because you had the rest moved up and the pads adjusted. The weird thing about Yamaha's, the CSVR's, you buy one and they are ready to play a concert that night. The pads seal for at least 30 seconds and you don't have to try out 15. Just one usually.
Repadding is actually a skilled art. To get great seals may require removing 5 skin pads before you find one that works and seals tight. I have cork pad on most of the upper joint of the Yamaha's. You can expect up to a 1 minute seal with cork and they last for 10 plus years. You can do this to your Buffet if you decide to keep it.
We are in a weird time right now when some horns are actually better than Buffet's, such as some Selmer's and other horns, but Buffet has this false reputation of still being the best and some players won't ever leave Buffet. Even in 30 years they will still play on them.
My suggestion to you is to keep what you have since you have it, but look around. I spent 8 months testing out horns and found that the Yamaha's were better. The CSVR's. No dead notes, no fear in the altissimo register such as when hitting the F that you might hit an A, that kind of stuff. You can attack the notes. Some players really like the SEVR, a slightly larger bore.
I then sold 8 sets of Buffet's over a period of about a year. Sold 16 Buffets! But I know people will NEVER leave Buffet. They won't ever try something new. They are Buffet players forever. But do me a favor and one day try a Yamaha. Mainly the A clarinet. It might change your world. Yes they were toys not long ago, now they are so fun to play on.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
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Author: Windy Dreamer
Date: 2018-10-05 05:14
My first clarinet was an Armstrong that I bought at a thrift store for $20.00. I knew nothing about clarinets. I saw the wooden body , the $20.00 price tag and assumed that I found a super score that I could resell for hundreds of dollars.
I went straight from tbe till to a local repair shop that also sells used instruments on consignment. The owner-technician told me it would cost over $400.00 to turn it into a $100.00 clarinet that they would not want in the store due to its lack of popularity. He then pointed out the torn pads .bent keys. chipped tone holes .a huge chunk of wood ready to fall out of the upper tenon and apologized there was no point completing the assesment because it was beyond practical restoration. He went on to suggest that I could sell it to a bar as a wall ornament or convert it to a lamp to recover my investment.
From an investment perspective I was crushed. I then told him of my lifelong desire to play a wind instrument and my inability to bond with the many flutes and recorders I had bought in the past. He suggested I buy a read , give it a blow and seek out a better clarinet if I liked the sound. I bought the reed , he set it up for me , taught me how to blow on the mouthpiece and sent me home.
While driving home I cringed at the memory of how terrible that reed sounded while mounted on the mouthpiece. It reminded me constantly of my disappointment with flutes and recorders from the past.
As soon as I got home I started blowing on the fully assembled clarinet . I was thrilled by the first sound I heard. By the time I got four different tones between squawks I knew I had found the sound I had been longing for throughout life. I was in Love .
I rushed back to the music store for pads. From there I went to the dollar store for super glue and sandpaper. When the new pads wouldn't seal against the chips on the raised toneholes I sanded them down until I could obtain a seal.With a pair of pliers in each hand I straightened the bent keys. As one tone hole after another came to life I fell ever deeper and passionately in love.
After about three months of playing I started to notice a bit of stuffiness in the beautiful tones I was producing. Looking down into the clarinet I was horrified to see strands of wood fiber protruding everywhere. After a a few short tense moments of prayerful thought I taped a copper pot scrubber to a dowel and scrubbed out the loose fibers. The greatly improved clarinet sounded much better but still a little stuffy. Over the next few weeks I proceeded to sand out the center bores with coils of sandpaper taped around a long dowel. Later on I used dremels sawdust and superglue to restore rotted toneholes. Throughout the Mcgivered restoration I euphorically played oiled and caressed my beloved first clarinet.
She is now reverently semi retired. I couldn't care less what a digital analyzer or academic naysayer might think of her. She is a beautiful instrument capable of fabulous tones and endless hours of pleasure.
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Author: m1964
Date: 2018-10-05 08:43
Bob Bernardo wrote:
"Wish you bought a Yamaha new for abut the same price. I guess you still can. Something to think about. Because you had the rest moved up and the pads adjusted. The weird thing about Yamaha's, the CSVR's, you buy one and they are ready to play a concert that night. The pads seal for at least 30 seconds and you don't have to try out 15. Just one usually."
I looked at the Yamaha but the new ones are over 3K, and I did not see a used one available.
However, one advantage of buying a used instrument is I should be able to sell it for close to the amount of money I paid for it (I hope...)
That Festival sounded great though...
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Author: Windy Dreamer
Date: 2018-10-05 12:39
Somewhere along my clarinet journey I posted an online want ad seeking broken and or dysfunctional clarinets for amateur hobby restoration. A man called saying he had a 1927 A Fontaine Rosewood that he would sell for $50.00 if I could convince him that I would give it a respectful home and attempt to make it playable. He went on to say the mouthpiece was conservatively appraised at $200 - $300.00 . He said he would withhold the mouthpiece if he doubted my intentions.
This clarinet had a very sad history despite a very noble beginning. It was a family heirloom that once belonged to a very capable grandfather musician . It then spent 20 years as a party toy in an unheated garage tossed and fought over by disrespeçtful drunken rock musicians.
It was a beauty to behold despite its six major cavernous cracks. As I gently caressed it I felt the devotion of its maker .I delighted in the joy of its 1920s audiences as a long bent key fell out and onto the table. I said I would pay the $50.00 and he could keep the mouthpiece if he wanted. He said he felt guilty taking the money after seeing the way I fondled and gazed upon his beautiful clarinet.
I was so totally committed to the minute by minute restoration that I completely forgot the process as I worked.The only effort I remember is the anxiety. I felt as I Cautiously turned key posts into oversized holes filled with super glue and rosewood sawdust.
Despite her semiretirement she does play gloriously to my personal satisfaction. Her former cracks are hard to find . Her formerly loose and twisted keys now stand proud and joyful as she shares a place of honor alongside of my first clarinet.
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Author: marcia
Date: 2018-10-06 00:45
I bought one used instrument (alto clarinet-yes I am a nerd ) off that "unmentionable site". The ad said it had been recently overhauled. When I got it, I could hardly make a sound on it as it leaked like a sieve. However I did want to have the instrument, so I took it into Morrie's shop and he was able to resurrect it for me. I did have some contact with the seller, who was prepared to take it back and refund me. And he admitted quite openly that he knew nothing about musical instruments and had believed it to be in good condition. So I suspect there may be many people "out there" selling used instruments that know nothing about the items they are selling. Buyer beware.
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Author: bookron ★2017
Date: 2018-10-06 04:09
Re: those selling instruments who know nothing about what they're selling.
My favorite occurrence on the taboo site are the ones who offer clarinets (sometimes relatively expensive ones) with descriptions that make the seller seem competent, but then they conclude with something like, "includes 3 used Rico reeds; one broken." And 3 of the 6 photos will be of the moldy reeds!
Having said that, though, I've been satisfied with my purchases there. Read carefully, ask questions if necessary, read between the lines, and you can get some interesting items.
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2018-10-06 07:04
I respect M1964's buying experiences online but believe that he could have done better if he had observed the following:
1) Always check first to see if the seller accepts returns and check to see that the seller has a 100% approval rating. If you are patient, you will eventually be able to put instruments from these sellers on your "watch list" and then chose to order the instrument that appears to offer the best deal. In any event, I would NEVER buy an instrument online from someone who does not explicitly announce that they accept returns. It is not that unusual to find a used Buffet seller who gives anywhere between a 7- and 14-day trial period to the buyer and charges only a minimal fee for returns.
2) There are several very competent techs who charge less than $700 for a complete overhaul. One is John Butler in Sugarland, Texas (just outside of Houston). His latest price list I believe shows between $300 and $375 (the higher figure for all cork pads in the top joint). I believe Larry Frank in Philadelphia is also considerably below $700 for an overhaul, and there are others if you ask around and search them out.
3) And, yes, Bob Bernardo is correct that some Yamaha and Selmer clarinet models are made and finished very well and well worth buying used if you see a good price from an online dealer who accepts returns. But never rule out used Buffets if you are looking for the "Buffet sound."
Post Edited (2018-10-06 07:12)
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Author: Clarineteer
Date: 2018-10-06 08:11
Not only is Larry Frank of Frank Woodwinds an excellent tech who really knows how a clarinet should be set up and overhauled but he has a 2 year guarantee on all adjustments and his prices are way below the $700.00 range. He is also an expert in fabricating parts if necessary and knows how to think outside the box using his extraordinary talents and creativity. He holds a degree in mechanical engineering.
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Author: m1964
Date: 2018-10-14 02:57
seabreeze wrote:
"I respect M1964's buying experiences online but believe that he could have done better if he had observed the following:
1) Always check first to see if the seller accepts returns and check to see that the seller has a 100% approval rating. If you are patient, you will eventually be able to put instruments from these sellers on your "watch list" and then chose to order the instrument that appears to offer the best deal. In any event, I would NEVER buy an instrument online from someone who does not explicitly announce that they accept returns. It is not that unusual to find a used Buffet seller who gives anywhere between a 7- and 14-day trial period to the buyer and charges only a minimal fee for returns.
2) There are several very competent techs who charge less than $700 for a complete overhaul. One is John Butler in Sugarland, Texas (just outside of Houston). His latest price list I believe shows between $300 and $375 (the higher figure for all cork pads in the top joint). I believe Larry Frank in Philadelphia is also considerably below $700 for an overhaul, and there are others if you ask around and search them out."
...
Hi Seabreeze,
that problem with the action site was that the seller appeared competent and the description of the A clarinet clearly said "new pads,... silver keys" which was not true. He did say he would accept the return but the buyer would pay for return shipping.
I could return the A-clarinet but I would have to argue that I am returning it because of his deceptive description and that would be another hassle ...
However, since the wood and keys (nickel-plated) were in good condition, I did not want to send it back so after he offered partial refund I kept the instrument.
I was able to re-pad the upper joint by myself, the lower joint is OK for now.
The intent of my post was to offer my personal experience to other people looking for a used instrument.
Buying from Craigslist was very straight forward and took less than 15 min. (not including my travel time which was about 15 min. one-way).
The reason I had to look at the auction site was that no one was selling a used professional A clarinet locally.
Anyway, I think I am done with my clarinet buying because I now have the instruments well above the level I need.
***It still is a pleasure to play these professional buffets, even that the sound of my E12 is close to R13 sound it is not exactly in the same class.
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2018-10-14 14:28
My absolute favourite on ebay recently was an advert that said:
"clarinet or oboe, good playable condition"
The photograph was of an oboe. I though the description made it very clear how reliable the "good playable description" assessment could be considered to be.
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Author: Clarineteer
Date: 2018-10-14 16:32
My all time favorite Ebay ad said, we have two student clarinets for sale. The price was $99.00 for both and then it said you could purchase one or both.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2018-10-14 17:42
I always take the seller's description with a massive pinch of salt if they mention 'recently overhauled' as their perception of an overhaul or recent isn't mine. I tend to buy used clarinets for my own use and always expect to completely strip them down and rebuild them as I know they won't be in playable condition (and the same can be said for some brand new pro level clarinets).
Whenever buying anything used, expect things to be in far worse condition than the seller states and expect to have them overhauled (which is completely stripped down and rebuilt and not just wiped over with an oily rag). That applies to buying used instruments from eBay, classifieds and also from shops.
I recently saw an older E11 that was sold by a music shop and had been overhauled by the repairer they use whose work is piss poor at best. I wish I got some photos, but most pads were the wrong thickness, hastily shove din with hot glue which was oozed out the sides and left, natural cork everywhere, even some original key corks from the '80s when it was made and the ventings were all closed down so it was very stuffy in the lower register.
I told the owner it has a lot of potential, but I can only do so much with it to make it play a bit better, but it would be best to completely overhaul it to make it play at its best. All I could do in the time he was with me was to increase the ventings and regulate things which made a significant difference. I told him to bring it back to me in a couple of years time for a complete overhaul, unless he has upgraded by then.
But if buying used, always expect the worst case scenario and that way you won't be disappointed when you end up with an unplayable instrument and don't pay over the odds for something if you have your suspicions (or low expectations).
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Windy Dreamer
Date: 2018-10-14 18:15
Vendor descriptions of used products are usually meaningless to me. They can often represent the vendors delusional hope of high sale value or their contempt for what they want to part with.
The ads I take most seriously read something like, " Found cheap at a yard sale. Flipping it for $50.00 firm. I know nothing about the product. As is. Shipping at cost. " There are a lot of unbielivable bargains sold under those descriptions.
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Author: Claude013
Date: 2018-11-02 17:43
A couple of years ago I got the clarinet bug and picked up a Champion online.
I still don't know who made it but the only ID is the logo on the bell, so it was probably made by one company for sale by another. My best guess so far is Grossman Music Corp.
The bell was nearly falling off, so I bought a cork kit and tried my hand at fixing it. That worked well, but I never really got into it for a couple of years until I got the bug again and started trying to learn it this year.
I work in a small print shop in an industrial area where I can make horrible noises in the evening after everyone leaves without bothering the neighbors, but I thought maybe something at home wouldn't be too bad once I got more control of the sound, so I went back on the internet and found a Selmer Bundy, hasn't been assembled or tested, for $40 pus $30 shipping. The cork looked good in the pictures, so I'l give it a try.
Well, it turns out that "looks god" and "works well" are two different things. The tenon between the upper and lower joints was loose, so I'll need to replace the cork there. And two of the big pads in the lower joint are delaminated and try to fall out when I work the keys. But by looking at other instruments in the same Bundy case I think it dates back to the late 1960s, and it has a handsome textured finish that looks like wood, so I'll take it to the music shop and see what accessories I need and maybe what it would cost to put it in playable condition. They want $70 and 5 weeks to replace four pads and the cork on that tenon. The texture is real wood. I bought a $70 grenadilla instrument.
So I'm pleased with my purchases. It was an accident, but I think I got lucky. Now to get some pads and reseal the Champion.
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Author: m1964
Date: 2018-11-04 04:03
Claude013 wrote:
> A couple of years ago I got the clarinet bug and picked up a
> Champion online.
> I still don't know who made it but the only ID is the logo on
> the bell, so it was probably made by one company for sale by
> another. My best guess so far is Grossman Music Corp.
> The bell was nearly falling off, so I bought a cork kit and
> tried my hand at fixing it. That worked well, but I never
> really got into it for a couple of years until I got the bug
> again and started trying to learn it this year.
> I work in a small print shop in an industrial area where I can
> make horrible noises in the evening after everyone leaves
> without bothering the neighbors, but I thought maybe something
> at home wouldn't be too bad once I got more control of the
> sound, so I went back on the internet and found a Selmer Bundy,
> hasn't been assembled or tested, for $40 pus $30 shipping. The
> cork looked good in the pictures, so I'l give it a try.
> Well, it turns out that "looks god" and "works well" are two
> different things. The tenon between the upper and lower joints
> was loose, so I'll need to replace the cork there. And two of
> the big pads in the lower joint are delaminated and try to fall
> out when I work the keys. But by looking at other instruments
> in the same Bundy case I think it dates back to the late 1960s,
> and it has a handsome textured finish that looks like wood, so
> I'll take it to the music shop and see what accessories I need
> and maybe what it would cost to put it in playable condition.
> They want $70 and 5 weeks to replace four pads and the cork on
> that tenon. The texture is real wood. I bought a $70 grenadilla
> instrument.
> So I'm pleased with my purchases. It was an accident, but I
> think I got lucky. Now to get some pads and reseal the
> Champion.
One advantage of buying an inexpensive clarinet is that you don't lose much if you screw up the instrument trying to fix it.
When I needed to fix the R13 I looked for a professional tech.
Then, my friend gave me a plastic Artley with couple of bent keys and bad pads.
I stripped the Artley and repadded it, fixed bent keys and put new keys and two tenon corks so now I can play it if I need to be outside in poor weather.
After that I got confident enough to repad my E12 because I want to sell it.
After I successfully repadded the Artley and the E12, I repadded my "new" A Buffet RC.
However, I enjoy fixing my clarinets but not everyone does.
If I had to pay to fix the Artley it would not make sence...
My 2p
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