 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Ben Shaffer
Date: 2018-10-08 22:40
Well I just picked up a couple of somewhat old looking Vandoren MP's on ebay, but have not received them yet.
One a B45 and the other a 5RV.
I have no idea if they are 440 or 442.
I didn't see any 13 designation on the images.
That said no big deal one way or the other.
I'm curious however as to the time frame when Vandoren introduced 442 MP's in the US, or have they always been 442 here?
And then of course are the early MP's in the 60, 70's and early 80's all 440?
Not interested in debating the merits of these MP's or pitch adjustment
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2018-10-09 00:32
Well 440 vs 442 is a bit subjective as mouthpieces taken in isolation have no defined pitch.
However as I understand it the "440" pitch (or more correctly a pitch approx 2 Hz lower than their then currently produced mouthpieces) was always designated by the "13" series.
I suspect that most older VD mouthpieces were effectively 440 as the creeping growth of pitch in Europe (excluding Germany / Vienna) is a relatively recent occurrence.
Wish I knew why !
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2018-10-09 01:12
For some reason Vandoren and Buffet think the USA wants us to tune to 440 or lower. The M series mouthpieces, which I've written about are sadly longer in length. The BD5 comes in 2 styles, 440 and 442. But the tip openings are around 1.12mm's, which I feel is too open. So why buy any Vandoren's? The altissimo registers on the M series most likely will drop to 438. We don't have to accept this as there are a lot of other excellent mouthpieces and barrel makers to fix this.
As for the Buffet R13's well we have to go back to the 1960's when pretty much every symphony player used R13's, and very few players used other instruments. But in the 1970's Buffet made the bores bigger so the pitch went flat and now you sometimes have to use a 63mm barrel on an A clarinet to to play in tune. Why? Because most symphonies such as Boston and the Los Angeles Philharmonic tune to 442. Just to name a few symphonies.
If we all stop buying low pitched horns and M series mouthpieces they just might stop making them wrong.
So far their solutions are to make more models and charge more for clarinets and even some of the mouthpieces.
So the American sound is kind of gone, because of this poor quality control design decisions perhaps from people that don't even play the horns.
So frustrating. Even if you find a great Chedeville or a great Kaspar plan on buying a short barrel, because most likely you will be playing flat.
I give a lot of credit to Ricardo with the Philly Orchestra for searching for the right setup.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
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Author: Ben Shaffer
Date: 2018-10-09 04:03
I'll update the pitch of these 2 older looking Vandoren MP's when I receive them
Post Edited (2018-10-09 04:55)
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Author: Episkey
Date: 2018-10-09 06:11
Just to clarify the OP actually said this verbatim: "Not interested in debating the merits of these MP's or pitch adjustment". So I'm really not sure why there had to be an obligatory statement about Vandoren and Buffet had to be there.
Vandoren mouthpieces prior to the M series for the most part tuned around 442 but many I've encountered can be played at 440 simply by pulling out at the barrel as needed. No different than playing a non-13 series today.
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Author: Dibbs
Date: 2018-10-09 13:50
Bob Bernardo wrote:
> in the 1970's Buffet made the bores bigger so the pitch went flat
All other things being equal, a bigger bore would have made them sharper.
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Author: NBeaty
Date: 2018-10-09 17:25
An M model isn't necessarily 440, since the M15 and M30 are offered in both 13 series 440 and standard 442.
I'm not sure of the exact date for the first M series mouthpiece, but I'd guess the late 80's/early 90's. All Vandorens in the three decades before the release of the M series were at 442. In the 50's, the Diamond Perfecta model was prevalent. I find most Diamond Perfecta Vandorens to tune closer to 440 than 442.
(Apologies for the rest of this post being only tangentially related)
Bob: "Even if you find a great Chedeville or a great Kaspar plan on buying a short barrel, because most likely you will be playing flat."
Maybe if you take every Cicero Kaspar out of the equation this would be close to something slightly resembling accurate.
Bob: "sometimes have to use a 63mm barrel on an A clarinet to to play in tune."
Never heard of a pro using such a short barrel, or anyone else non-jazz for that matter. I guess they're out there somewhere.
Bob: "I give a lot of credit to Ricardo with the Philly Orchestra for searching for the right setup."
Up until a couple months ago, he was using a crystal mouthpiece with an open tip (something you've railed against) with a hard plastic reed (pretty sure you've gone on plenty of rants about people using reeds that are too hard) and MoBa Cocobolo instruments (which you can't really argue is old school American sound). Despite this equipment, he sounds fantastic. I don't think that those who essentially copy his setup sound anything like him and in fact may sound closer if they were using a DIFFERENT setup than him.
So Bob, if you find that there has been a fundamental shift in equipment and sound preference in the last few decades, you'd have to attribute a fair bit to Backun and the subsequent creation of other companies doing similar things. It's really hard to say on one hand that Ricardo has helped to push against people wanting to change the overall American sound when the instruments and equipment he's given so much popularity to are changing the sound as much or more than anything else (for better or for worse...).
I see how you can argue that Buffets aren't as good as they used to be. I don't see how you can take that Buffet to Buffet comparison and conclude that they've been the root cause of the fundamental shifts in sound concept by many. Similarly, I can see the argument that 13 series vandorens are farther from ideal than standard. Again, I don't see how 13 series Vandorens are the root cause of fundamental changes in sound concept when you've had so many Zinner A blanks and hollow sounding babbitts out there in the same time period.
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2018-10-10 00:42
NBeaty I'm not sure if I'm clear about your comment or comments. I'll be more than happy to send emails back and forth and show you my findings through the years.
I can say that the R13's in the 1960's you used 66mm barrels or 67mm barrels and pull out a shade to hit 442.
If you do that now with the present R13's you will be tuning to 435. Just facts. So you have to use much smaller barrels.
There are of course players with beautiful sounds, but if these companies made the horns correctly we'd have a lot more players with amazing sounds.
On a positive note we are seeing younger players showing up that can play anything. High school kids playing the Nielsen Concerto! This is a joy to hear. Such fast fingers and articular. Now let's add great sounds by providing players with amazing instruments to achieve this and get rid of this 440 junk. It really shouldn't be that hard and these surely shouldn't be sold anymore. Give us back 442 "Stuff," that sounds great and works.
I tested Guy Chadash's horns which are pretty much Buffet's from the 1960's with the octave keys moved and these horns play. The bores are smaller with the correct tapers and the barrels are adjustable to the correct pitch. So it's possible to make great horns at fair prices.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
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Author: NBeaty
Date: 2018-10-10 01:32
"If you do that now with the present R13's you will be tuning to 435. Just facts. So you have to use much smaller barrels."
-Every Cicero Kaspar I've ever played/evaluated/heard that hadn't been rebored/otherwise destroyed played much higher than a 13 series Vandoren, often higher than the standard Vandoren on modern instruments. Put on a 63mm barrel, finger a C in the staff, and lip it down a little to get an in tune B... It seems like if it were a universal fact that these mouthpieces tune that low I would have come across at least one like that by now.
"There are of course players with beautiful sounds..."
- This is what I was getting at with Ricardo. He sounds great, but most people who use the same setup sound nothing like him. In fact, arguments can be made that many of the perceived changes in tone concept over the last 15 years alone have gone farther away from traditional American clarinet tone. So I was curious why you would credit Ricardo credit for maintaining traditional clarinet tone regarding equipment if so much of what he uses causes others to sound LESS like the beautiful tones of the past. I think if the community focused more on allowing their sound concept to be influenced by another rather than just copying their setup, we'd all be better off.
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2018-10-10 03:21
Nathan, I think you hit the nail on the head. One of my early clarinet models was Louis Cahuzac, and I tried hard to emulate his sound on a batch of Vandoren Diamond Perfecta 5RVs, reputedly the mouthpiece he played on some of his later recordings. But to my dismay I sounded nothing like him on recorded playbacks. Come to think of it, I never heard anyone sound much like Cahuzac when they played a Diamond Perfecta. Of course I can never exactly match Cahuzac's sound on anything but the closet I've come is on a Vandoren M13 lyre or some regular M13s. I had similar results trying to approximate Mitchell Lurie on a Lurie mouthpiece. No way! But on a Fobes San Francisco or some of Brad Behns, I come a lot closer. I'm sure this is true for most people. We have oral cavities, teeth and jaw arrangements, tongue length and thickness and many other factors in our physical make-up that are bound to differ from those of our sound idols. We may not be able to "fill" and resonate a mouthpiece they find easy to fill. Or we may overblow one they find easy to finesse and control. The means players use cannot be identical even when they are aiming for the same result.
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2018-10-10 05:47
I'll be at the American Single Reed Summit later this month, I'll bring some old Kaspar's and Chedeville's that have never been touched. As well as other older mouthpieces. They aren't for sale, but you can surely stop by and play on them and check the tuning for anyone interested. I'll also be giving a lecture on reeds. So come on by.
A lot of these questions written above I can't be answered unless you actually play on some of these old mouthpieces, barrels, and old R13's. This is the best I can offer. Then you can hear what is missing from the newer R13's and Vandoren M series mouthpieces and maybe grasp that sound concept which I feel is missing.
If you miss the Reed Summit, I'll be at the ClarinetFest, but the problem there are too many people playing and it's so hard to hear yourself play.
As for the barrels written above. No the Buffet barrels in general have remained the same. The inside bore dimensions. Even the old Moennig reverse tapers are close. But not consistent. Just like picking out an R13, you may have to try 10 barrels before you find one that is correct.
If you stop by the booth I think a lot of you will be pretty angry at what we are receiving and forced to play on. You might rethink your loyalty to Buffet and Vandoren and start emailing them demanding Buffet to make great R13's again.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
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Author: NBeaty
Date: 2018-10-10 20:03
Bob (Monie)- If you do find what makes you sound just like Cahuzac, let me know! If only there were a magical ligature or something that would suddenly make that transformation to such a beautiful sound!
Bob (Bernardo)
- I'm sure you do have some kaspars and chedevilles that play lower in pitch than some other mouthpieces. If you have a Cicero Kaspar that is both original and flatter than a 13 series vandoren, I'd be surprised and less likely to believe it hadn't been hollowed out. The Kaspars that seem to play the lowest are those of the Ann Arbor Babbitt variety. If nothing else, Babbitt blanks tend to sound tonally flat even if they aren't below pitch.
- "Just like picking out an R13, you may have to try 10 barrels before you find one that is correct." - if you change the word "correct" to "to your liking", then I agree.
- "A lot of these questions written above I can't be answered unless you actually play on some of these old mouthpieces, barrels, and old R13's". Other than the occasional table stamp Selmer that plays lower than normal, it's not common to find vintage mouthpieces from anywhere near the mainstream of clarinet playing that plays lower than zinner A/13 series vandorens.
-"you stop by the booth I think a lot of you will be pretty angry at what we are receiving and forced to play on." First off, no one is forcing you to play on anything. If you prefer the sound of vintage horns or mouthpieces, then play that. It's really not that hard to find an R13 that plays well, particularly when matched with aftermarket barrels/bells and the right mouthpiece/ligature/reed.
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