 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: m1964
Date: 2018-09-26 22:35
I am looking for an advice:
I have a Buffet A clarinet which had the original non-adjustable thumb rest relocated.
The thumb rest now feels like it is a little too high, so I would like to replace the original non-adjustable one with an adjustable thumb rest.
I wanted to replace it with the Buffet adjustable thumb rest.
However, I have two other Buffets with adjustable thumb rests - one with the ring (E12) and R13 has one without the ring.
Both of those thumb rests keep loosening up, esp. the one without the ring.
I also noted that Votaw tools sell an adjustable thumb rest.
I'd like to be able to use existing holes and screws so that is why I was looking at the Buffet thumb rests and Votaw (they have one with screw spacing like Buffet - 10mm).
Is there anyone with experience in changing thumb rests who can give me an advice?
Thanks a lot
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Author: kdk
Date: 2018-09-26 23:01
I recently had Buffet adjustable thumb rests with rings put on my Bb and A Selmer 10Gs - the Bb had a fixed thumb rest and the A had an adjustable but I wanted it moved higher anyway and thought the ring would be good to have, as I've been using a neck strap off-and-on in recent months.
I bought the two thumb rests on the advice of my repairer, who installed them for me. I have had no problem with them. They're best tightened with a coin - you can finger tighten them, but they can start to loosen if your grip isn't quite strong. But, tightened with the help of a U.S. nickel, I have had no problem with their coming loose.
Karl
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Author: m1964
Date: 2018-09-27 00:41
kdk wrote:
> I recently had Buffet adjustable thumb rests with rings put on
> my Bb and A Selmer 10Gs - the Bb had a fixed thumb rest and the
> A had an adjustable but I wanted it moved higher anyway and
> thought the ring would be good to have, as I've been using a
> neck strap off-and-on in recent months.
>
> I bought the two thumb rests on the advice of my repairer, who
> installed them for me. I have had no problem with them. They're
> best tightened with a coin - you can finger tighten them, but
> they can start to loosen if your grip isn't quite strong. But,
> tightened with the help of a U.S. nickel, I have had no problem
> with their coming loose.
>
> Karl
Karl,
Thanks a lot for your reply- I re-measured the distance between the screws and it is 11mm, not 10, so I cannot have Votaw thumb rest installed.
I just ordered (supposedly) original Buffet one. Plus two cushions.
Thanks again
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Author: m1964
Date: 2018-09-27 08:16
Hi Bennett,
just did that- will see if it works. I am afraid to use anything but finger tightening because using excessive force may strip the thread, and there is not too much metal in there in the 1st place.
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Author: Clarineteer
Date: 2018-09-27 12:10
The proper position for the thumb rest is for your index finger of your right hand that covers the first ring to be at the same height as your thumb. In other words directly across from each other.
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Author: John Peacock
Date: 2018-09-27 12:30
I agree that the Buffet adjustable thumbrests are a terrible design. The screw keeps working loose because basically there isn't enough length of thread. Adding glue is better than nothing, but the problem will come back eventually. But these rest tends to wiggle from side to side even when the screw is tight. Plus there are only a few distinct heights, rather than continuous variation. And finally, it's not even comfortable: for my thumb at least, the metal plate on the bottom is the wrong shape and needs padding to avoid pain. So it's a total disaster. At the other end of the spectrum, the best rests I ever encountered are the ones from Howarths: comfortable, secure, capable of fine degrees of adjustment. They don't make their pro clarinets any more, but they will still sell you the rests.
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Author: m1964
Date: 2018-09-27 16:43
Clarineteer wrote:
"The proper position for the thumb rest is for your index finger of your right hand that covers the first ring to be at the same height as your thumb. In other words directly across from each other."
Hi Clarineteer,
After the original thumb rest was relocated I still found it uncomfortable mostly because it was so small. I ordered the adjustable one which is much bigger.
Would you know if I can use the original screws to mount the adjustable thumb rest? I am asking because the mounting plate seems to be thicker on adjustable one than on the original thumb rest.
Thank you
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Author: Steven Ocone
Date: 2018-09-27 17:31
A thick cushion on the thumb rest will put your thumb in a lower position. Buffet thumb rests are not reliable. Jupiter makes a good one and the holes on the thumb rest should be in the same location. There are others as well.
Steve Ocone
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Author: kdk
Date: 2018-09-28 00:16
Clarineteer wrote:
> The proper position for the thumb rest is for your index finger
> of your right hand that covers the first ring to be at the same
> height as your thumb. In other words directly across from each
> other.
For whom?
Karl
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Author: Clarineteer
Date: 2018-09-28 03:02
From an engineering stand point the thumb and index finger in alignment balances the weight of the instrument which virtually illiminates thumb pain due to proper ergonomics.
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Author: JMason
Date: 2018-09-28 06:11
Since I am old and have a touch of arthritis, over the years I have tried several different thumb rests, I prefer the "Ton Kooiman Etude 3". The mounting holes work on my Buffet Tosca. Very easy to install. I think it can be installed by anyone that can use a screw driver but that is up to you.
It takes the weight off of the outer thumb joint and moves it to the next joint closer to the hand. It also has a slight curve that grips the thumb and provides additional stability for the clarinet.
This thumb rest is adjustable by several inches up and down and should adjust to almost any hand and any position.
So like Karl's response to the Clarineteer
>Clarineteer wrote:
>> The proper position for the thumb rest is for your index finger
>> of your right hand that covers the first ring to be at the same
>> height as your thumb. In other words directly across from each
>> other.
>For whom?
>Karl
You can put the clarinet anywhere you want relative to your hand position. It took me several weeks to find a position that did not hurt my thumb and while physics may say where to put your thumb I prefer a no pain position. I can now play several hours with no pain.
Jeff
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Author: m1964
Date: 2018-09-28 09:31
JMason wrote:
> Since I am old and have a touch of arthritis, over the years I
> have tried several different thumb rests, I prefer the "Ton
> Kooiman Etude 3". The mounting holes work on my Buffet Tosca.
> Very easy to install. I think it can be installed by anyone
> that can use a screw driver but that is up to you.
>
> It takes the weight off of the outer thumb joint and moves it
> to the next joint closer to the hand. It also has a slight
> curve that grips the thumb and provides additional stability
> for the clarinet.
>
> This thumb rest is adjustable by several inches up and down and
> should adjust to almost any hand and any position.
Hi JMason,
Thanks for replying to my post.
After the original Buffet adjustable thumb rest was moved up on my R13 Bb I found it much more comfortable to play the clarinet.
My tech also moved the original thumb rest on my "new" A clarinet. However, the A clarinet has a non-adjustable thumb rest which is a lot smaller that the adjustable one, so the pressure from the non-adjustable rest is on a very small area of my thumb. I compared the diameter of the part where the thumb rests, on both thumb rests and could clearly see that it was significantly smaller on a non-adjustable rest.
I hope that the new rest has the same screws spacing as the old one being that both are Buffet ones.
If that were the case, the install would not require me to go back to my tech (who is always very busy).
The only potential problem I foresee is that the mounting plate of the adjustable thumb rest is thicker than the original one.
I wonder if the original screws would go deep enough to get reliable fit/hold…
If not, where can I find longer screws of the same diameter/thread size? Votaw does not have any...
Thanks
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2018-09-28 13:55
>> The proper position for the thumb rest is for your index finger of your right hand that covers the first ring to be at the same height as your thumb. In other words directly across from each other. <<
Except in cases where it's not.
>> From an engineering stand point the thumb and index finger in alignment balances the weight of the instrument which virtually illiminates thumb pain due to proper ergonomics. <<
This is not true in all cases. Of close to 30 years of playing, I've only had serious thumb pain for a few weeks, exactly the weeks where I moved the thumb rest to this supposedly correct position, after a suggestion from a teacher. Tried a few things that didn't help. Thumb rest moved to where it was before (incorrect position according to your post)... problem solved.
It might be statistically the best position for most people, but this is something to check for each person and not a "rule" as your posts suggest.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2018-09-28 14:02
>> I agree that the Buffet adjustable thumbrests are a terrible design. The screw keeps working loose because basically there isn't enough length of thread. <<
Not only that, but because of the short thread engagement, they tend to strip and can't be tightened at all. Some of them are made from a material that exaggerates the chance of this happening (I think for some models they are made from a different material but not sure). Of course you can find many that never had this happen... but after seeing many, statistically speaking, it is far more common than it should be.
>> the metal plate on the bottom is the wrong shape and needs padding to avoid pain. <<
I need that no matter what thumb rest. Pretty much any thumb rest is comfortable for me as long as it's padded. Regardless of the shape, if padding helps, I see no reason to not pad it. I prefer the rubber cushions but there are many ways to pad it.
Post Edited (2018-09-29 09:32)
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Author: m1964
Date: 2018-09-30 18:42
clarnibass wrote:
>> The proper position for the thumb rest is for your index finger of your right hand that covers the first ring to be at the same height as your thumb. >>
"This is not true in all cases. Of close to 30 years of playing, I've only had serious thumb pain for a few weeks, exactly the weeks where I moved the thumb rest to this supposedly correct position, after a suggestion from a teacher. Tried a few things that didn't help. Thumb rest moved to where it was before (incorrect position according to your post)... problem solved.
It might be statistically the best position for most people, but this is something to check for each person and not a "rule" as your posts suggest."
Hi clarnibass,
If you hand was in a certain position for many years, changing that position initially could produce pain because you had adapted to the "wrong" position.
If the placement of the thumbrest was not a problem for you I do not see a reason why it was relocated in the first place.
However, we have different hand shapes and finger lengths so what is comfortable for one may not be comfortable for another player.
The thumb rests on my both Bb and A clarinets were moved just so much up that if I wanted, I could lower them down to the original position.
Luckily, Buffet did not change spacing of the mounting holes so the new adjustable thumbrest I bough went in without any problem.
There is one strange thing though. The new thumb rest came without cork on it. I put a silicone Duo cushion on it but I feel like if I just glued cork there it would be better...
...old habits die hard.
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Author: Jarmo Hyvakko
Date: 2018-09-30 22:41
Positioning the thumb opposite the index finger may cause, that you support the instrument with the muscles that move the thumb. It's better to have the thumb rest lower, in order to have the instrument "hanging" from your thumb and let your biceps to do the job. Using the muscels that move your thumb may cause you a "golfers elbow" (like tennis elbow, but on the other side). My solution, that works fine with me, is thumb opposite the middle finger. Worked fine for over 30 years in a professional orchestra!
Jarmo Hyvakko, Principal Clarinet, Tampere Philharmonic, Finland
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Author: Jarmo Hyvakko
Date: 2018-09-30 22:50
There is also something they call DeQuervain's syndrome, that some also call the clarinetist's thumb and that deals with the muscles that you use moving your thumb.
Jarmo Hyvakko, Principal Clarinet, Tampere Philharmonic, Finland
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Author: m1964
Date: 2018-10-01 06:39
Jarmo Hyvakko wrote:
"Positioning the thumb opposite the index finger may cause, that you support the instrument with the muscles that move the thumb. It's better to have the thumb rest lower, in order to have the instrument "hanging" from your thumb and let your biceps to do the job. Using the muscels that move your thumb may cause you a "golfers elbow" (like tennis elbow, but on the other side). My solution, that works fine with me, is thumb opposite the middle finger. Worked fine for over 30 years in a professional orchestra!"
Thank you- I will try the position you suggested.
One advantage of the adjustable thumb rest is I can try different levels and see what is more comfortable
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2018-10-01 08:59
>> If you hand was in a certain position for many years, changing that position initially could produce pain because you had adapted to the "wrong" position. <<
You can't really say it is the "wrong position". There isn't exactly right and wrong positions. I already found out why the lower position works for me and why the higher position caused a lot of pain. This was more than 20 years ago. It was just an example to show that it varies. In this case it wasn't a change that I needed to get used to, it was the new higher position itself that was the problem.
>> If the placement of the thumbrest was not a problem for you I do not see a reason why it was relocated in the first place. <<
It wasn't a problem as far as pain, etc. My teacher at the time (it was after just a few years of playing) suggested that it might be worth trying because other players prefer a higher position. It wasn't done to solve a problem, but just to check if it would be more comfortable. There was no reason not to try it.
>> we have different hand shapes and finger lengths so what is comfortable for one may not be comfortable for another player. <<
If it wasn't clear, this was the whole point of the post, in contrast to some posts claiming a specific position is "correct" and that's it.
Post Edited (2018-10-01 09:02)
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Author: m1964
Date: 2018-10-01 16:42
"If it wasn't clear, this was the whole point of the post, in contrast to some posts claiming a specific position is "correct" and that's it."
That is why I wrote "wrong" inside quation marks.
What is wrong for one can be right for another person.
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Author: shmuelyosef
Date: 2018-10-01 22:47
I don't particularly like the friction or 'wiggly-ness' of the push-on rubber thumbrests, or the fact that they are thick...moving the effective thumb position lower.
I use Dr. Scholl's PSA Moleskin products for padding...I just cut a piece the shape of the rest but about 1mm extra all the way around (to fold up over the edge). Very comfortable and long-lasting. Quite honestly, cork works pretty well, too.
The Leblanc-style adjustable rests (used to get them from Votaw, but they seem unavailable) are quite superior to the Buffet design, although the latter is what is on my two most-played clarinets and is also satisfactory.
I don't see any interesting thumbrests at the Howarth page...just the Buffet, the Kooiman and various rubber press-ons.
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Author: John Peacock
Date: 2018-10-02 00:27
Attachment: howarth_thumb.jpg (777k)
Here are some pictures of the Howarth thumb rest. Indeed, they aren't on the web site, but I was in touch recently and they said they could sell me one for £50, so they must have a stock even though their clarinets are no longer made (or they use the same ones on their oboes). You can see the nice curvature on the metal plate (which the Buffet one lacks) - so even without the thin layer of cork I suspect it would be pretty comfortable. The base plate looks the same thickness as an original Buffet fixed model, so maybe the old screws would work - but it needs new holes drilling higher up, so that's not the main issue.
For what it's worth, you can see I found the best position for me was quite low- almost where the original Buffet would be, and certainly not opposite the index finger. My feeling on this is I feel more comfortable having it at the height where the instrument is balanced: higher up and things want to rotate.
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Author: m1964
Date: 2018-10-06 18:12
John Peacock wrote:
> Here are some pictures of the Howarth thumb rest. Indeed, they
> aren't on the web site, but I was in touch recently and they
> said they could sell me one for £50, so they must have a stock
> even though their clarinets are no longer made (or they use the
> same ones on their oboes). You can see the nice curvature on
> the metal plate (which the Buffet one lacks) - so even without
> the thin layer of cork I suspect it would be pretty
> comfortable. The base plate looks the same thickness as an
> original Buffet fixed model, so maybe the old screws would work
> - but it needs new holes drilling higher up, so that's not the
> main issue.
>
> For what it's worth, you can see I found the best position for
> me was quite low- almost where the original Buffet would be,
> and certainly not opposite the index finger. My feeling on this
> is I feel more comfortable having it at the height where the
> instrument is balanced: higher up and things want to rotate.
The Howarth thumb rest seems to be similar to one from Votawtools.com.
After the thumb rest was moved up on my A RC clarinet I find that I do not need the rest in its highest position but one notch down which is still higher than the original location.
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Author: John Peacock
Date: 2018-10-08 01:49
m1964:
"The Howarth thumb rest seems to be similar to one from Votawtools.com"
I don't agree with this. The Votaw one has an elliptical button on the bottom, but one of the especially nice features of the Howarth is that it is shaped to go right up against the body of the clarinet with no gap - see my pictures. I think this is one of the reasons it's so comfortable.
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Author: m1964
Date: 2018-10-08 14:57
John Peacock wrote:
> m1964:
>
> "The Howarth thumb rest seems to be similar to one from
> Votawtools.com"
>
> I don't agree with this. The Votaw one has an elliptical button
> on the bottom, but one of the especially nice features of the
> Howarth is that it is shaped to go right up against the body of
> the clarinet with no gap - see my pictures. I think this is one
> of the reasons it's so comfortable.
Hi John,
Indeed, you nailed it- they have different thumb support plates.
Someone told me that Votaw thumb rest have a very small plate. The Howarth's one seems to have a relatively large one which should be more comfortable.
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Author: Bennett ★2017
Date: 2018-10-09 00:55
FWIW I find it more comfortable to have a big fat thumb rest or 'saddle' placed on my R13 stock thumb rests. The fat thumb rest, unlike the Howarth, opens up my hand so my thumb is a bit further away from my clarinets. My callous is also a bit smaller.
Ridenour Thumb 'Saddle'
http://www.ridenourclarinetproducts.com/thumb-saddle.html
I've also tried the Kooiman Etude - pain definitely goes away but I found that the clarinet rotated a bit too much for me on its long axis.
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