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 Metal ligatures for legeres european cut
Author: rgoldem 
Date:   2018-08-29 04:58

I have been using almost exclusively legeres european cut for about one year. They are thinner than cane and in many cases metal ligatures do not work well with them. They can be either slippery or oversized.

On the other side, fabric ligatures work better. They tighten as much as I need and dimension is not really a problem. However I find they generally dampen vibrations and sound becomes duller.

In this case, can anyone recommend me a metal ligature that works well with the legeres european cut? Do Ishimoris do the job? They are expensive and I don't want to buy one to find latter that it does not attend the requirements.



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 Re: Metal ligatures for legeres european cut
Author: Paul Aviles 
Date:   2018-08-29 05:14

Of course just my opinion, but I have used the BG Tradition for about a week and I would say it is unequivocally the best ligature for the Legere.


I have a yellow gold Ishimori that works fine placed really low (bottom of ligature in line with bottom of reed). BUT, the BG Tradition is unquestionably the more resonant and easy to use option.



..............Paul Aviles.



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 Re: Metal ligatures for legeres european cut
Author: Caihlen 
Date:   2018-08-29 05:30

I use a string on Legere and a Vandoren on cane. For me, this hits all the buttons.

kc

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 Re: Metal ligatures for legeres european cut
Author: Paul Aviles 
Date:   2018-08-29 06:56

I tried blattschnur (reed string) too. It is what one would expect. It's not bad mind you, but not a typical "metal" result. It is a little covered sounding by comparison. If you do like to really keep the reed in place, it is not a "clamped down" option.





................Paul Aviles



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 Re: Metal ligatures for legeres european cut
Author: zhangray4 
Date:   2018-08-29 16:27

I use a Rovner Platinum Ligature with my Legere European. On some mouthpieces, if you tighten too much, you can damage the reed by getting the inside cracked (you get this white line at the heel of the reed). On my default mouthpiece I have no issues as the rails are wide. But I have noticed any difference after the "crack."

-- Ray Zhang

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 Re: Metal ligatures for legeres european cut
Author: kdk 2017
Date:   2018-08-29 17:04

FWIW, I've been using an inverted Bonade with Legeres when I use Legeres. On my current mouthpieces, I've had to put a rubber mouthpiece patch on the back of the mouthpiece to provide enough girth. Without the extra padding, the ligature, when tightened all the way, still doesn't hold the reed still. My next favorite with Legeres is actually a Rovner Versa X with the cloth tucked under the metal plates, which feels almost identical to the Bonade, but I find centering the metal plates accurately on the reed is harder than placing the Bonade. Makes a difference when the ligature occasionally slips during instrument changes.

Karl

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 Re: Metal ligatures for legeres european cut
Author: Knowles 
Date:   2018-08-29 20:14

I've been using legeres for most of a year now, and consistently get great results from a Silverstein Cryo 4. I've tried Ishimori and a Bonade inverted, and while both worked well, the Silverstein doesn't have a single flaw from what I can tell. Highly recommended, and if you're looking at prices they have options that aren't quite as expensive.

Kurt
Music Ed., WP

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 Re: Metal ligatures for legeres european cut
Author: kdk 2017
Date:   2018-08-29 20:47

Knowles wrote:

> I've been using legeres for most of a year now, and
> consistently get great results from a Silverstein Cryo 4. I've
> tried Ishimori and a Bonade inverted, and while both worked
> well, the Silverstein doesn't have a single flaw from what I
> can tell.

Isn't the price itself a flaw?

> and if you're looking at prices
> they have options that aren't quite as expensive.
>

But do they provide the same playing qualities?

Karl

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 Re: Metal ligatures for legeres european cut
Author: Burt 
Date:   2018-08-29 20:50

I've had good results with Luyben (plastic) ligatures for Legere signature, European signature, and cane reeds.

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 Re: Metal ligatures for legeres european cut
Author: rgoldem 
Date:   2018-08-29 23:22

Thank you all for the answers.

However, in my opinion the BG Tradition tends to be slippery unless you overtight it. The inverted Bonade and the Luyben touch the sides of the reed in the case of the European Cut and strings do not hold tightly enough for rapid changes of instrument.

I never tried Ishimoris and Silversteins. I guess the Ishimori holds the reed well enough but I am not certain the Silverstein does the same job.



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 Re: Metal ligatures for legeres european cut
Author: kdk 2017
Date:   2018-08-29 23:35

rgoldem wrote:

> The inverted Bonade and the Luyben
> touch the sides of the reed in the case of the European Cut

My only further comment is that you should rely more on how the reed responds with each ligature and less on how it looks. Touching the sides of the reed isn't in itself a fatal flaw. Unless it interferes with the reed's response. A ligature that avoids the reed edges is only better if it responds better.

Karl

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 Re: Metal ligatures for legeres european cut
Author: rgoldem 
Date:   2018-08-29 23:58

Yes Karl, you are right. I read a lot about Bonades in the forum and I took as a preconceived idea that metal ligatures should not touch the sides of the reed. My affirmative was not empirically based. I will try them.

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 Re: Metal ligatures for legeres european cut
Author: Paul Aviles 
Date:   2018-08-30 00:00

Oh, if you cannot just swap from the barrel then you might be more inclined to try the "A Frame" Silverstein or the BG "Duo." They both incorporate rubber bumpers. Silverstein also has an accessory that you stick onto the back of your mouthpiece to help keep either of their designs more firmly in place.

https://www.silversteinworks.com/product/antislip-pad/


I cannot tell you how anxious I am to receive my back ordered Duo given the early success with the Tradition.





...............Paul Aviles

P.S. To KDK.....The problem with Euros is the width. If you "crank" on them, a typical ligature will actually cause stress fractures that do in fact negatively affect the playability. These reads are more "brittle." They are the Greenline of reeds.



Post Edited (2018-08-30 00:02)

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 Re: Metal ligatures for legeres european cut
Author: kdk 2017
Date:   2018-08-30 00:21

Paul Aviles wrote:

> P.S. To KDK.....The problem with Euros is the width. If you
> "crank" on them, a typical ligature will actually cause stress
> fractures that do in fact negatively affect the playability.
> These reads are more "brittle." They are the Greenline of
> reeds.

I understand the risk of this happening. I can only say that in over a year of using Legere Euros I used a couple of different ligatures, including the inverted Bonade that I'm still using now that I'm back to cane for most of my playing. I never had a reed crack. I don't, it's true, "crank" on them - but I do tighten them enough to keep them from slipping when I change horns.

I imagine, too, that the table width influences the tendency to crack. The mouthpieces I've been using don't have tables that taper appreciably as they approach the tenon end. You'd be most likely to get the stress fractures you're describing if the edges of the reed hang even a little beyond the edge of the table.

Not saying it isn't a potential problem, but the bottom line is, it's never happened to me.

Karl

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 Re: Metal ligatures for legeres european cut
Author: Paul Aviles 
Date:   2018-08-30 14:25

Roger that Karl........just wanted to clarify.



And I just ran across the video:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SSFhYLsODV4



CAN'T WAIT !!!!!!




................Paul Aviles



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 Re: Metal ligatures for legeres european cut
Author: Ed 
Date:   2018-08-30 16:56

I used a regular Bonade with them. On some mouthpieces I had to add a patch on the mouthpiece or some cork inside the ligature to increase the mouthpiece diameter.

I don't know why they don't increase the thickness of the butt end of the reed, which would help. One of the frustrations that I had when I tried the Legere was that same issue.

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 Re: Metal ligatures for legeres european cut
Author: Paul Aviles 
Date:   2018-08-30 19:19

I am pretty sure that ALL the dimensions of the Legere (tip thickness, width at tip, width down to bottom, length, length of vamp, shape of vamp, thickness of the "stock" or butt end) affect the response and strength of the final product due to the type of plastic used. You may have noticed that all the dimensions are different (and not so subtly so) between the Signatures and the "Classic Cuts." I doubt if the thickness is arbitrary or changeable for the present configuration.


I have to note that the mouthpiece I settled on is based on a particularly narrow Zinner blank to achieve the short facing of 14mm in length. So my problems involving "thickness issues" are even worse. Yet another reason to love the BG Tradition. How do those with average mouthpieces and average reeds use the BG Tradition??????




..............Paul Aviles



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 Re: Metal ligatures for legeres european cut
Author: Dan Shusta 
Date:   2018-08-30 21:55

Paul,

I have been searching extensively for a mouthpiece with a 14mm facing. The only one I've found so far is the Grabner Chicago model.

Would you please tell me the name of the mouthpiece you have which is made from a narrow Zinner blank?

Thanks

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 Re: Metal ligatures for legeres european cut
Author: Paul Aviles 
Date:   2018-08-31 00:14

Hey Dan,

You got it! Some how this mouthpiece is a perfect fit for me. Of course short facings require softer reeds to get the same feel as you would get with a longer facing and a stronger reed.


Another one to consider would be the Clark Fobes in a C11 facing (16mm long; 0.96mm open) or the C12 (16mm long; 1.00mm open). Both are based on Kaspar mouthpieces. I was playing German cut Legeres when I received a version from Mr. Fobes and the window was too wide to work. I did notice just how beautifully the curves of the baffle looked and I may go back to this mouthpiece now that I am currently using Legere European Signature reeds (no problem width wise with these goony looking reeds!).





.................Paul Aviles



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 Re: Metal ligatures for legeres european cut
Author: Bob Barnhart 2017
Date:   2018-08-31 21:28

I've been wanting to make Legere reeds work for some time. However, I prefer more open facings and these seem less "Legere-friendly". However, I am currently playing a Backun Arabesque (1.19 x L) facing that seems to working well with European Cut 3.5 reeds.

The problem has been a suitable ligature. Among the ligatures I have, the Rovner Light seemed to play OK and it DID hold the reed on firmly. Among my metal ligatures, I really like the Vandoren M|O, but for clarinet, the "cradle" is too narrow for the Euro Cut reeds (i.e., it holds the reed by the edges which impairs the sound).

Consequently, I ordered an Alto Sax M|O ligature (in "Aged Gold" which matches the keys on my CSGs). Unfortunately, this ligature is a bit large (in diameter) and cannot grip the very thin Legere reeds.

As a workaround, I've tried beefing up the "bark" part of the reed with double-stick tape (~1/8" thick), cork, and various rubber "pad" materials. So far the best solution has been to cut a 3mm-thick (Runyon) mouthpiece patch and use THAT on the back of the reed. So far this seems to have minimal effect on the reed vibration, allows the Alto Sax M|O ligature to hold the reed firmly with minimal pressure and yields a better sound than the Rovner seems to. I have ordered some adhesive rubber material from which I can make additional "patches" and we'll see how that works.

If the Legeres work out with this solution, I might consider other metal ligatures (which I feel mitigate the otherwise "covered" Legere sound). However, most of them seen to employ a "Bonade" style which grips the reed using vertical bars and I have found that I prefer the more "free" feel of the horizontal contacts employed by the M|O (and Optimum) ligatures. Then there is also the problem that ligatures have become really expensive, especially if you want them in gold...

Bob Barnhart

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 Re: Metal ligatures for legeres european cut
Author: ClarinetRobt 
Date:   2018-08-31 23:09

Bob:
I've been using a silver Ishimori to help mitigate the damping effect when I use my 3.5/3.75 Legere Euro Signatures. He helps, but still dark-ish.

~Robert L Schwebel
Mthpc: Behn Vintage, Lig: Ishimori, Reed: Aria 4, Legere Euro Signature 3.75, Horns: Uebel Superior, Ridenour Lyrique

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 Re: Metal ligatures for legeres european cut
Author: shmuelyosef 
Date:   2018-09-02 03:21

I have been using the Bonade Inverted ligatures for some time with the Legere reeds. They don't get much recognition but are a good value and very competent.

One trick I have found is that you can put strips of tech-cork on the inside of a ligature to effectively make it smaller...do it symmetrically. I had an inverted Masters Vandoren Optima that was too big but I liked and I made it work this way.

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