 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2018-08-14 19:02
I was confronted by a student who had the "1 and 1" Bb fingering (less octave key) on her phone as a legitimate fingering for first line "Eb." I was adamant that this is NOT a note and nor has it ever been.
Then months later I find this wall sized Buffet Clarinet fingering chart that shows all three forms of the "1 and 1" Bb (less the octave key) as fingerings for the first line "Eb."
So is this a note you use? Do you teach this note?
Just to buttress my possible dementia, there was a reference in a text (possibly Brymer's book, "Clarinet") regarding the difference between German and Boehm clarinets sighting that the German version of that "Bb" note (since there is NO linkage between the top and bottom joint); thumb, first finger, and third finger; CAN be used for the first line "Eb" (without the octave key of course). This is because, unlike the Boehm, it is acoustically viable pitch wise.
Is it me?
....................Paul Aviles
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Author: Ken Lagace
Date: 2018-08-14 19:29
Sure - how about a low Eb-Bb tremolo, or a lyrical slurred three note phrase low Bb - low Eb - top line F?
If it doesn't play, the connection between the left hand and right hand pieces needs adjustment.
On some horns this fingering may have the best tuning and/or sound to use in a proper place.
Post Edited (2018-08-26 06:21)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2018-08-14 20:40
It's not a great note due to it naturally being sharp as an Eb (but excellent as an upper register Bb), but it is a good alternative if it can be used as part of a tremolo where using the side key (or cross key) fingerings would be impractical.
On Albert/simple system as well as German and Oehler systems, the forked fingering for Eb (xox|ooo) is often too sharp, but makes for an excellent upper register Bb. The side key or cross key fingerings work better in the lower register just as they do on Boehm systems.
Only with clarinets fitted with the LH forked Eb/Bb mechanism (the 7th ring key for LH finger 3), do you get a decent Eb and Bb with the xox|ooo fingering.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: zhangray4
Date: 2018-08-14 20:43
My former teacher uses it a lot. Since it's very sharp, I only use it when necessary such as fast passages or tremolos. I use it for this part in the Saint Saens Sonata, 2 before rehearsal marking 1 (measure 32). You could use the side Eb but it's just more effort, and it goes by so quickly that the pitch won't matter as much
-- Ray Zhang
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Author: DAVE
Date: 2018-08-14 20:51
There's a French scale book, perhaps Pares?, that insists on using this fingering as well as a 1&2 A# for certain keys. The A# one is awkward to incorporate, but it does solve the problem of the leading tone in a B Major scale being too low. Try it; you'll see. It might sound weird to us clarinetists, as we are used to that scale being out of tune, but I'd argue that incorporating a higher leading tone in that instance is preferable. The same issue to a lesser degree is addressed in the lower register E Major scale by using the 1&1 or the 1&2 fingering.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2018-08-14 23:49
That Buffet fingering chart to which I referred has the 1&2 and the 1&3 for the first ledger line "Bb" (which is fine.......some issues but not bad) as well as the first line "Eb".....which sounds about a quarter tone off to me. I don't think I will encourage students to use that. They were using that as a primary by the way.
...............Paul Aviles
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Author: Darrwall
Date: 2018-08-15 00:38
I have never seen this fingering in any of my tutor books. I have just tried it and the tuning is identical to the standard E flat chalmeau fingering on my instrument - a plastic 1980 Boosey and Hawkes Regent.
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Author: kdk
Date: 2018-08-15 03:57
In terms of intonation and security, it's my third favorite fingering for that note, but I use it when it makes arpeggios or trills/tremolos easier or when for some reason I need the sharpness.
FWIW, many method books, including Rubank, Collis and Galper (to mention the ones I have easily on hand) show it as a third fingering and T+ L1+R2 as a fourth choice. I suspect Klosé does, too.
I suggest to my students that, given its sharpness, I would avoid beginning a passage with it or using it for a sustained note. Still, it has definite uses and I want my students to know what's available.
Karl
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Author: zhangray4
Date: 2018-08-15 10:32
I remember that in a masterclass on the first mvmt of the first Brahms Sonata, Karl Leister actually asked the student why she wasn't using the fork Bb (it's not a fork on Boehm but is on Oehler). He said it gave it a special color to it, making it not as bright.
-- Ray Zhang
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2018-08-15 14:40
YES!!! The "Bb" is fine...........just the "Eb" twelfth below is a pain.
.................Paul Aviles
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Author: graham
Date: 2018-08-15 15:13
I use it on bass clarinet but not on soprano. The tuning issues do not seem a problem on the bass.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2018-08-15 17:08
graham wrote:
> I use it on bass clarinet but not on soprano. The tuning issues
> do not seem a problem on the bass.
Definitely works much better on bass than it does on sopranos.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Carcamalisio
Date: 2018-08-17 05:54
That fingering sounds in tune with my Eflat clarinet. Not for my Bb clarinet, I only use it when I play fast passages or tremolos.
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Author: donald
Date: 2018-08-17 12:46
I often encounter students who come to me after a year of group lessons "somewhere else" who use this as their primary E flat (low reg) fingering- largely because they have been taught by sax players from the local Jazz school. Here in NZ for some some reason LOTS of the sax players seem to use 1/1 and 1/2 as their PRIMARY fingering (rather than as an auxillary fingering for arpeggio or tremolo etc). The E flat to D (and B flat to A on saxophone) usually sounds like arse, but they don't care. It drives me nuts.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2018-08-17 16:36
donald wrote:
"The E flat to D (and B flat to A on saxophone) usually sounds like arse, but they don't care."
Haha! That's made my day!
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: kdk
Date: 2018-08-17 16:44
I would never have thought of that as a primary fingering on sax, but I always wonder if my approach to sax fingering is too clarinet-centric, since I'm completely self-taught on sax. Maybe I'm better off that way.
Karl
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Author: Tom H
Date: 2018-08-26 05:45
I taught with a Band Director who taught this fingering to beginners. He was a sax player, where it is a legitimate Bb fingering, as with above staff Bb on clarinet.
I don't like it and would use it only in the rarest of situations, maybe tremolo.
MAYBE. Trills, no.
I have played on many clarinets and have yet to find one where it is reasonably in tune.
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Author: Barry Vincent
Date: 2018-08-26 22:23
The Eb (bottom line) and the Bb (above the 1st leger line) is the only twelfth that is too 'close' because the Eb is naturally sharpish.
How sharpish ? You can still play this Eb by adding the LH or RH B key and the RH 123 fingers and it's still slightly sharp but it's a nice fingering to use if you can. It gives the Eb a nice tonal quality.
Skyfacer
Post Edited (2018-08-26 22:24)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2018-08-26 22:36
Interesting venting suggestion for this fingering. Thank you Barry. I still go back to the fact that the Buffet wall-sized fingering chart (and I really mean a WALL SIZED chart) does NOT show any additional fingers down. They illustrate it identically to the "Bb" above......awful.
...............Paul Aviles
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Author: kchan ★2017
Date: 2018-08-26 23:37
My intermediate school band director (Stanley Shimada, clarinet) never recommended it ... except when playing Leroy Anderson's Christmas Festival. There is a section where the 2nd and or 3rd clarinets are playing fast staccato moving patterns (eb, bflat, c, d, repeating) under the upper voices playing Deck the Halls.
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2018-08-26 23:42
I've seen it and used it on a Selmer Eb I had. But here's the thing. It plays well in tune on some horns such as the older Selmers, which I strongly feel were the best Eb horns at the time. The 1960's. Better than Buffet's for sure as far as tuning. None of the Eb clarinets were great during this era.
But you can't use this fingering all of the time, only for the slower movements. The Eb I had was sadly stolen, so I'm not up on the later models. I went through a short phase for about 6 months and played on all Selmers, the 9* horns but went back to Buffet and only kept the Eb clarinet. I went back to R13's. But there was something very special with the Selmer's which I really liked. The key work was amazing and the high register above C was much easier to play.
Hope this helps.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
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Author: kdk
Date: 2018-08-27 01:53
Paul Aviles wrote:
> They illustrate it
> identically to the "Bb" above......awful.
>
Paul, this is really instrument-dependent. It isn't "awful" on my 10Gs and, FWIW, the 1+1 Bb5 is also a little sharp on my clarinets. It's still a third choice, but it's perfectly useable.
Karl
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Author: kdk
Date: 2018-08-27 02:00
kchan wrote:
> My intermediate school band director (Stanley Shimada,
> clarinet) never recommended it ... except when playing Leroy
> Anderson's Christmas Festival. There is a section where the
> 2nd and or 3rd clarinets are playing fast staccato moving
> patterns (eb, bflat, c, d, repeating) under the upper voices
> playing Deck the Halls.
>
I don't have the music in front of me, but I'm sure I know the spot you mean. I wouldn't remotely consider using 1+1 there for the Ebs. The jump from side Eb to Bb is no more or less awkward than the move from D to Eb using 1+1. I wonder why he recommended it there.
Karl
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Author: kchan ★2017
Date: 2018-08-27 02:48
Not sure, that was a good 40 years ago. He was very much a Selmer (a bit Leblanc) guy and it could be just inherent working with those types/era clarinets tuning and key work. Maybe from experience working with students that have been playing just over a year. He studied with Gower, maybe he picked it from him.
Post Edited (2018-08-27 02:53)
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Author: NetG
Date: 2018-08-28 02:20
In the Langenus method book 1, page 40, under "Studies for the Eb-D# Fingerings", there are 4 Fingerings given for this pitch. There is the 1 and 1, and 1 and 2, but "They are much too sharp in pitch and must be used only in rapid passages". I mess around with these fingerings sometimes, but rarely use them. On my Buffet E12f the fork fingerings sound pretty good and I do use the 1 and 1 to go from low Ab/G# to 1st line Eb/D# sometimes, usually fast phrases or a tremelo.
Post Edited (2018-08-28 14:09)
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