 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Grabnerwg
Date: 2018-08-02 20:28
I know O rings have been discussed before on this forum, but I wanted to get fresh advice.
1. First question:
How many people use O rings on their mouthpieces instead of cork? If so, is the ease of assembly and disassembly the same? Is the seal better? Do you feel more or less secure?
2. Second question:
All else equal, would you be more likely to purchase a new mouthpiece with cork or O rings?
Thanks,
Walter Grabner
www.clarinetxpress.com
Still have plenty of Zinner blanks left!
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Author: KenJarczyk
Date: 2018-08-02 21:25
Hello Walter!
Brad Behn has been using O-rings on his Epic and Sono mouthpieces. I do use his Sono Eb on occasion. They seem rather secure. I just had to get used to lubricating the inside of the barrel rather than the mouthpiece tenon. I see no negative issues with O-rings.
Ken Jarczyk
Woodwinds Specialist
Eb, C, Bb, A & Bass Clarinets
Soprano, Alto, Tenor & Baritone Saxophones
Flute, Alto Flute, Piccolo
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Author: Tom Puwalski
Date: 2018-08-02 23:54
O rings are why the Challenger blew up, and my Nikonos flooded. I don't want them on mouthpieces!
Tom Puwalski
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Author: Ed
Date: 2018-08-03 00:49
If they work well, I would be happy to use them.
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2018-08-03 02:02
Clarinet parts from a plumbing supply store!! It's the end of the world as we know it. The only possible problem that I can see is that they may not provide the mechanical support that a snug cork joint gives, but that is only speculation.
Tony F.
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Author: Steven Ocone
Date: 2018-08-03 02:11
I'm a repair tech, not a player. My only reservation would be if someone had a barrel with a slightly oversized socket. the mouthpiece might be wobbly in this situation. I guess some cork could be added or there could be another solution.
Steve Ocone
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Author: gwie
Date: 2018-08-03 02:23
I like the o-rings on my Behn HCV. Since they don't compress as much as cork, I don't get any wobble, and they are easy to replace. Substituting slightly thicker or thinner o-rings is simple to fit different barrel socket sizes.
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Author: Brad Behn
Date: 2018-08-03 02:50
I am so pleased with how the O-rings are working that I am no longer making mouthpieces with cork tenons. I have abandoned cork altogether.
O-rings provide many improvements over cork. Indeed a faulty O-ring is credited for the space shuttle's disaster but just imagine a rocket engine with a cork seal...That's not a problem solved!
And with mouthpieces, the fit is more secure, the air-tight seal is NEVER in question, the fit never changes (wears out), and with occasional lubrication applied to the inside of the barrel socket, the mouthpiece inserts and removes with far greater ease.
And IF one O-ring happens to break, I have triple redundancy where only one ring is necessary for the seal, two rings are needed to create a secure wobble-free fit. I make my tenons with three or four rings (depending on mouthpiece size: Bb, Eb and Bass). And we offer replacement parts (in various sizes) on our website for convenient,inexpensive solutions.
O-rings are available in different sizes allowing options for over and undersized barrel sockets. If there is an issue with the mouthpiece fitting inside the socket, just easily remove the rings and reinstall a different size. We offer several different sizes on our website, but have found only a few cases where changing is necessary. Most barrels seem to accommodate the fit of my mouthpieces without issue.
That said, the most important benefit of O-rings is in the improved energy transfer. They simply don't dampen the vibrations and overtones like cork. I often get complimentary comments like: "I can feel the vibrations in my fingertips."
And O-rings are easily removed and reinstalled by you - the player. There is never need to go to a repairman to replace a cork.
A pet peeve of mine is when the tenon is beveled by a poor quality cork replacement. All too often the repair tech sands the cork down for improved fit, and in so doing also bevels the tenon's edge. This problem is no more.
A bit of news... This month, we will begin production on mouthpiece blanks that we will make available to other mouthpiece makers and refacers. They will only be available with O-rings.
Brad Behn
http://www.clarinetmouthpiece.com
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Author: Kenton153
Date: 2018-08-03 23:05
I have a maxton mouthpiece and do not like the O rings one bit. I love th mouthpiece but the o rings are impossible to keep lubricsted for more than 2 assemblies because the grease get rubbed off. There is no absorbtion like with cork. They create a lot of friction between the wood and the or rings, and it is almost impossible to change quickly unless i wrench my ligature on. You can feel each o ring go in and out of the tenon and it makes for a very unsmooth experience. I am not sure if my tenons are unusually small or what. I habe the thinnest o rings available. I much prefer cork and have never had problems with cork. The o rings have lasted a while. But ive never had cork fail on me. Ive also played mouthpieces with cork thay im sure dates back decades. For me, i domt see any advantages with o rings but the disadvantages are prevelant in day to day usuage. I will be getting my tenon machined on my maxton and cork installed.
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Author: Kenton153
Date: 2018-08-03 23:08
A few more things: as the tenon varies in size with humidity, it can become extremely difficult to put the mouthpiece on and take it off. Also, i can see in the tenon of my barrel that it has been rubbed completely raw by the o rings. The lack of ability to lubricate them is extremely irritating.
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Author: windplr
Date: 2018-08-03 23:22
My only experience with O rings was on a Yamaha 221-II bass clarinet, where they are used instead of cork to join the upper/lower stacks and the bell. They seemed to work well in that application.
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2018-08-03 23:54
This is a perfect time for Brad Behn to enter the mouthpiece blank market. I hope his blanks do well. Regarding O-rings, I have them on the several Behn mouthpieces I have regularly played for the past 4 or 5 years, and they work fine with just a very small amount of barrel lubrication. ("Ultimax Synthetic Cork Lubricant" has been my favorite.) I've never played Maxtons so I don't know how their O-rings compare.
Post Edited (2018-08-04 05:24)
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Author: donald
Date: 2018-08-04 00:53
I look forward to refacing a Behn blank, and am sure that his product will be great. His student mouthpieces are extremely good- I am about to contact the main clarinet store in NZ and recommend that they stock these instead of the Hite ones (which imho have gone super downhill in the last 10 years).
But I've never played a mouthpiece with O rings (I don't think I've ever seen anyone else doing so in NZ either) and will be very interested to try this out.
dn
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2018-08-04 03:30
A LITTLE off topic, but I wonder if O-rings could be suitable replacements for other corked segments. Would the other segments be too heavy?
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2018-08-04 03:55
Alexi,
"windplr" above mentioned having o-rings on the bass clarinet between joint and for the bell. I'd be up for that on a horn. It's worth noting perhaps that the Divine clarinet uses a synthetic cork now.....not too far from rings I suppose.
............Paul Aviles
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Author: Brad Behn
Date: 2018-08-04 04:23
Kenton, I find your criticism of O-rings interesting. Perhaps if you contact Maxton, inform them of your concerns, they may well take time to help out. I know that I would want the opportunity to work with my client and "make it right"...obviously I want my client's utmost satisfaction, and I expect Maxton does as well.
And in reading your criticisms, it seems like your barrel's socket is too small for your Maxton mouthpiece design and smallest rings. Perhaps your barrel's socket is a bit smaller than typical - but nonetheless there should be a very EASY solution. You can lubricate your barrel's socket (not the tenon of your mouthpiece). This should allow for a very smooth gliding fit which should last at least a week without the need for additional lube. I personally lube my barrel every other week, and find that my O-ring fitted mouthpiece glides on and off with FAR greater ease, comfort, and security than with cork. If this isn't the case for you, perhaps you can ask Maxton for smaller rings?
I don't know what type of rings Maxton use however there are MANY different materials and hardnesses. Improperly selected rings can be more "sticky" and grip the barrel's socket in a way which frustrates. But the O-rings I use are designed specifically for highly abrasive conditions, wide thermal tolerances, and ease of glide. Additionally I offer rings of two different hardnesses and several different sizes to ensure optimum performance with a variety of barrel designs, neck sizes, and customer preferences. That said, my standard ring size (medium) is of medium hardness, and is preferred by the vast majority of my customers. While I have had a few customers order smaller rings, and only two customers require larger rings - I am glad to have these choices available - it is remarkable to me how accommodating a good quality O-ring can be!
I should also note that the size of the ring is crucial in providing the necessary balance of "squish" and security, all the while providing a proper air tight seal, and inviting the most effective energy transfer. I invested a great deal of time in researching not only the ideal type of material and hardness for my O-rings, but the best thickness to ensure I achieve my goals.
But also a perfectly milled tenon slot is crucial in achieving optimum performance. One can't expect perfect performance if the tenon is ovoid, warped, or of insufficient quality. O-rings don't hide inadequacies like cork. Cork will take up the slop if the tenon isn't perfect. I've seen molded mouthpieces, and plastic/molded mouthpieces with tenons which aren't perfectly round. In this case I would probably go with cork. But with a perfect tenon, the benefits of O-rings were so numerous that I simply had to do it. I would have been doing myself and my clientele a disservice if I stuck with cork!
Regarding your ligature and slippage. Indeed I too want a secure and slip-free ligature. I require it as I am an orchestral player and oftentimes only have a few short seconds to switch from Bb to A. And in that short moment of time, I can't have my reed shift. So I always crank my ligature tight enough to provide full confidence, but I also have very carefully selected a ligature for optimum resonance, response, and core - while fully cranked.
And this brings me to the conical body of mouthpieces - especially German design. Typically a French mouthpiece body is slightly angled (conical) and a German/Austrian design mouthpiece - more so. Well it is easy to imagine that the more conical the body structure of a mouthpiece, and the slacker the angle of the mouthpiece's table, the more likely the ligature will slip upwards. And this isn't good where a securely fitted reed is concerned. So the solution for these rather conically shaped mouthpieces is: 1. Carefully select your ligature. 2. Crank it tight. 3. Possibly use thin, slightly tacky mouthpiece patch material on the mouthpiece's body - which in turn increases the mouthpiece's circumference and adds grip for the ligature to remain secure. 4. Use a thicker reed. 5. CHANGE to a less conical mouthpiece - ha!
And yes a mouthpiece fitted with O-rings will feel different when you insert it into your barrel. It may snap (slightly) as each ring clicks into position. But this should be very quiet, and it shouldn't be annoying. I find it actually just the opposite. I feel it to be a sensual reward - a pleasant sonic and gratifying acknowledgement that my mouthpiece is secure, air tight, and ready for business. I make my Bb mouthpieces with three rings, so when I "feel" three gentle clicks, as I insert the tenon of my mouthpiece into my barrel socket, I am rewarded with the knowledge that my barrel is fully inserted into position. Have you ever played your clarinet to find your intonation wonky, to discover that your cork tenoned mouthpiece wasn't fully inserted? Each time that happened to me I was horrified, but perhaps not half as much as my colleagues - Ha! With three "O-ring clicks" I am ready to go - I don't need to look - I just play.
And finally a big issue with cork is that it compresses. Have you ever found your cork tenoned mouthpiece wobbly on one clarinet and tight on another? That's because the tighter fitting barrel squeezes the cork into submission. But after a while the cellular structure of the cork can't rebound fully and the cork remains compressed. And when that happens, it can't expand to make a tight wobble-free fit on the larger barrel. And most clarinetists sadly don't have the same fitting sockets on all of their barrels. So this issue is all too frequent. But O-rings don't have a cellular structure which will be compromised like that of cork. Proper O-rings have sufficient squish to accommodate a variety of socket sizes, but they just keep going - month after month.
My mouthpiece has the original O-rings from when I made it two seasons ago. They are still going strong, and I probably place this mouthpiece on and off of my clarinets a hundred times per day. I lube my barrels twice a month or so. It is that simple.
For me I see numerous disadvantages with cork, and many advantages with O-rings. I am a mouthpiece maker. I have made thousands of cork tenoned mouthpieces, and thousands of O-ring tenoned mouthpieces. I will never make a cork tenoned mouthpiece again.
Brad Behn
http://www.clarinetmouthpiece.com
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Author: Kenton153
Date: 2018-08-04 04:58
Hi brad thanks so much for your reply. I was kind of brusquw with my comment above but by no means did i mean to bash maxton; i just havent found the o rings to work quite well. I have worked with maxton on numerous different transactions and their service is superfluous. They make great mouthpieces and they are wonderful with customer service.
When i first saw o rings being used on mouthpieces (on your products in fact) i was excited about the idea. I also remember pondering when i was younger why o rings werent used on all tenons of woodwind instruments. I think went to high school and of course the bass clarinet i was supplied with was a yamaha 221 with the o rings like mentioned above.
I want them to work and i am rooting for them. I have just had multiple nightmareish occurences witv my current setup that have made me wary of them. But of course i am open to solutions and different versions of the same technology. I just want them to work!
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Author: Mike Blinn
Date: 2018-08-04 08:39
I had a very frustrating experience with my Yamaha 221 II BC last week. I could not assemble the upper and lower sections because the O-ring had swelled due to the heat (we were performing outside in ninety+ degrees.)
Fortunately, the Yamaha has two rings and a cork in between. I removed the failed O-ring and that took care of the problem. Beware.
Mike Blinn
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Author: HANGARDUDE
Date: 2018-08-05 12:42
I bought a SONO bass mouthpiece from Brad at Clarinetfest 2018 and it has 4 O-rings on the tenon. IMHO this design is far better and more practical than cork in many ways. It fits like a glove on the mouthpiece socket of my Buffet bass without feeling too tight, which is good because if the table of the mouthpiece tilts to one side, I just need to apply a small amount of pressure to base of the mpc and turn it until the table faces down and not at one side.
Mike, I had the same problem(but on the tenon of the lower joint) with my old 221 bass some years ago. But I personally think that it has more to do with its build quality, since I had a number of other issues with the register key and pads on that same horn throughout my 6 years using it.
Donald, I'm sure you'll be very happy with Brad's blanks. The SONO Custom I have is phenomenal, and is the best blank design I've ever played on!!
Josh
Post Edited (2018-08-05 17:38)
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Author: Ed
Date: 2018-08-05 18:11
Brad says:
Quote:
I feel it to be a sensual reward
I think this discussion might be better off in another type of forum! ;-)
For years I had thought about the idea of using O rings for my mouthpiece. As Brad mentions, the cork will compress. Sometimes this can happen very quickly if the socket is different for different clarinets or you are trying barrels which differ in size.
I have had times when I felt that my instrument had lost some resonance or was a little sluggish in response only to find that my mouthpiece cork was slightly loose. Replacing the cork immediately fixed the problem. Who knows, maybe when some feel their horns have "blown out" this might be a contributing factor.
I think the O rings are a great idea. Is it possible to retro-fit a mouthpiece that has cork tenons and change to O rings?
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Author: J. J.
Date: 2018-08-05 21:10
> I think the O rings are a great idea. Is it possible to
> retro-fit a mouthpiece that has cork tenons and change to O
> rings?
That's where this gets a little tricky (and interesting). I'm sure it *could* be done, bu the expense would be considerable. The O-ring possibilities are an exciting byproduct of using CNC machines to make blanks of one's own design. If you're building the entire mouthpiece, why not the tenon?
That is why I assume Walter's original post was an indication he might be researching using Wes Rice for the manufacture of his mouthpieces going forward. Who else is CNCing clarinet mouthpieces for other people to brand and sell?
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Author: bassclarinet101 ★2017
Date: 2018-08-06 05:43
Dear Walter,
Having tried both O-rings for an extensive amount of time in addition to the cork I grew up with, I found no problems with prolonged use of the O-rings during the variety of Midwest seasons.
Admittedly, I do not play clarinet outside, but the room I use for storing the clarinets does have two exterior walls.
If you'd like, I would be happy to send or drop off my gear some time for you to take a look at and play around with.
Sincerely,
Daniel Richmond
-Daniel
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Author: J. J.
Date: 2018-08-06 17:43
To answer Walter’s original question:
1. I use o-rings on one mouthpiece. I like them, and I’ve consistently been frustrated by cork compressing over the years. So they are a good solution for that. I did have an issue where neither the smaller nor larger o-rings fit quite right on the upper barrel socket, leaving a little gap where the mouthpiece essentially couldn’t be pushed in all at the way. This was frustrating, and something I’ve never had happen with another mouthpiece. It worked fine with other barrels.
2. Things are never equal, but I guess I might just barely choose o-rings over cork.
Post Edited (2018-08-06 18:15)
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